Don:

Regarding the below, are you saying that Christ no longer knows that he was Jesus of Nazareth, Mary no longer knows that she was his mother, Paul no longer knows that he was one of the authors of the new testament?

Losing limiting/false psychological thought patterns and losing memories are two different things.  Certainly a spirit can understand that it is no longer a body based being without forgetting that it once made use of one.

If spirits lose their human memories, how can they maintain a basis for having some sort of working relationship with the physical World?

I think you're going too far in your efforts to establish that anybody who communicates with spirits are communicating with imposters. Perhaps a case by case approach is needed.


[quote author=Berserk link=1176784696/15#15 date=1177014499]
“Now he has to get ready to shed a large part of this more familiar self....The traveller must face the...demise of the personal self, because it is becoming no longer tenable to live within its limitations...What is meant by the `personal self?’  It is the sum of all the person’s memories of the experiences, thoughts, and feelings which made up his sense of himself...during his past life on
earth...It is a kind of oblivion, but a conscious oblivion...The man leaves his desire body.  He is perfectly conscious.  He passes into a great stillness...He cannot think.  No faculty is alive, yet  he knows that he is...and his soul is filled with a wonderful peace (Paul Beard, 123, 130-31).”

"During earth life the spirit of man acting upon the brain and body...produces a reaction which we call mind.  the mind builds a mental body in which the mind lives and demonstrates.  If the hour of transition overtakes the spirit of man...without the spirit body being built up in which he can live and pass over and demonstrate in realms of light--then that unprepared spirit must take refuge in the mental body which man's mind has built.  The spirit that has never differentiated itself from its mind may be quite at home and even happy in the mental body.  That mental body, however, is inadequate for the spirit of man to live and to progress in beyond the mental plane.  In it he cannot travel to, or enter, the higher planes of spirit in Heavenly Light.  In it he cannot find his soul or fuse with it (106-107)."


Don-

I wonder what Vincent meant by certain occasions when the spirit body was not built up at the time of death?  Does he describe this body?  Does he say how we can be sure it is built up before we die? 

He clearly is differentiating it from the mental body. 

Can you clarify? 

Thanks,
R

Hi Don  When we go to the spirit world at our death,we forget nothing of our time on earth,nothing is ever forgotten,we are in spirit as we were in physical,i know this as a medium,when spirit come through they bring many memories from there earth life to prove who they are ,so we do not forget,our memories and our personalities go with us to spirit at the time of death and we never lose this.

Love and God bless      Love Juditha

thanks Dave for letting us know about primary process. it's a new phrase for me, but I like the way you introduced it. love, alysia

Dave:

Speaking of messages, recently my guidance showed me your name. I believe because they thought it would be a good idea for me to read what you wrote about primary process. Another thing that sort of relates to you. One time they showed me the cover of Michael Newton's third book. I believe the purpose was so I could find how directed his hypnosis is, which is something you have stated before.


Quote:

Hi Dave   I hope i get this right for you,the only thing of acting same as the thinking is that you actually feel the symptons of what the spirit died of also the emotions like tears and sadness which you feel whilst talking to spirit,so i agree with you that the thinking is the same as the acting,i'm sorry if i have answered wrong dave, im a little bit slow on the uptake sometimes and i dont always understand the words. i get spirit come to me in meditation and even when im writing on the afterlife.

Love and God bless   love juditha

Rea’s new husband, Herbert, lingered on a few days after Rea’s passing.  Rea’s death was initally kept from him, but he soon sensed her passing.  “Herbert was not only stricken with immeasurable grief but also obsessed with the idea that we all surely must blame him, even hate him, for what he considered his bungling in bringing such a catastrophe [= car crash] to Rea and all of us...
Herbert’s second birth was similar to that of Rea.  The difference was due to the undeveloped state of Herbert’s spirit body...because of lack of experience during earth life.   Herbert’s spirit had been engrossed in experiencing practical lessons, and was almost wholly realistic, depending on the physical body to contain and express the motivations of his spirit.”

“Even while the doctors and nurses were doing all they could for Herbert’s physical body, we saw beings of a similar function on the spirit side building up Herbert’s spirit body, more especially the right side.  It was like plastic surgery.  Herbert’s spirit mind responded to all these helpful services
and the color of his spirit body was seen to improve to progressively brighter shades.”

Herbert asked, `Where is Rea?’  We answered, `Rea is here; can’t you see Rea?  She is right here.’  `But I cannot see her.  Rea!  Rea!  Where are you?’  She answered, `I am here.’  Then Herbert said, `I see Rea now.’  But at that time it was only a glimpse now and then.  We told Herbert, `Mother Nellie and Grandmother Nesbit are here; look for them.’  He then saw Rea’s mother Nellie and exclaimed, `Oh I am going now--soon now, soon!’”...

“We were able to give him help and confidence from this world...Rea was not able to reach Herbert but so very anxious to help.  We saw Herbert’s being disturbed, due to his spirit body’s being too weak to get over the  chasm.  we were given to understand a general outline of the fixed laws and their equations involved in the transition of spirit, and also the possible solutions of
some of the problems arising therefrom.  It was the complexity of these problems with no solution in sight that disturbed Herbert.”

“He saw Rea in her spirit body of Light sufficiently transmuted to permit her development in spirit beyond the mental plane.  He could join her in his mental body for a while but not proceed with her into the truly spiritual Heavens.  His mental body was very strong. ; but how could he galvanize his impotent spirit body to cross the chasm to her side?  Mother Nellie was not permitted to help him from above, although she stood closer to him than Rea or the others.”

“Herbert was floundering, and one of us watching on this side was given to know that he must help Herbert’s infant spirit body reach the arms of Mother Nellie, on the other side of the chasm.   He drew himself into the vibration of  Nellie...and approached her, pushing Herbert, in his spirit body, ahead of him.  By an extreme effort of faith, trained in spiritual exercise, he had in his spirit
body just enough power to push Herbert into Mother  Nellie’s arms.  When Nellie was brought thus into contact with Herbert’s spirit body,  through this act of faith from this side, as  soon as she actually touched Herbert, she picked him up and held him as a baby son, his head on her left shoulder, his body obliquely across her body, and his legs across her right thigh.  Herbert was quiet then.  Though weak, he was conscious and happy with Mother Nellie.  He could then
rcognize and watch Rea.  Nellie continued to care for Herbert until his spirit body was strengthened into the power of a resurrection body through further transmution.  This was accomplished at the time of the funeral in the Church at South Sutton, New Hampshire, September 2, two days later (“Lighted Passage,” pp. 93, 103, 108).”

The retrieval or, better, assistance offered this couple raises at least 4 important issues:

(1) It implies that the mental body must be discarded and replaced by a spirit body before progress can be made.  

(2) It illustrates the role of the prayers and efforts of earthly loved ones in facilitating the upward "ascent" of our deceased loved ones.

(3) It also alerts us the limitations imposed on our discarnate loved ones in assisting our transition.  This of course raises questions about the advantages and disadvantages of being discarnate in the performance of soul retrievals.

(4) It raises the question of the absence of Herbert's deceased loved ones from his postmortem greeting party.  Were they absent because their memory of Herbert was impaired on their spirit plane? Because they lacked the strong bond that Rea's family had established with her?  Because they were on a lower plane in which souls are not informed about their loved ones' passing?  Such quesions could be mutliplied.   The point is this: the absence of loved ones in this greeting party is as important an issue as those who are present.

Don

[Dave:] “There is the implication that there exists  a "mental body" of various strengths, and that there exists a "spirit body" (aka "Spirit body of Light") and that these are differentiable in a (hopefully) non-trivial manner...(a) It implies that the "spirit body of Light" is transmutable in amanner that permits development. (b) and that this development extends beyond the mental
plane.”  
_________________________

The astral guidance offered for Rea and Herbert by Howell’s family members during their deathbed vigil raises as many questions as it solves.   What makes it unique is that it involves a group astral vision of the same series of transitional events to the afterlife.  As already noted, this family circle had previously experienced the materialiation of an astral flower from Nellie that was pressed and preserved.  Howell’s astral and retrieval gifts seem genuine.   This isnight is important to me due to my belief that all the retrievals reported on the AK board are bogus--cartoony and woefully deficient in accompanying verifications.   I will never learn to perform retrievals if I have no respect for alleged retrievals.  So my interest in Howell’s book is deeply personal.  

The assistance offered the dying Rea and Herbert by Howell’s circle implies that the integration of spirit and soul is essential to making the transition across “the chasm.”  Howell claims that his group actually wintesses the spirit body’s “transmutation.”  I am not clear about the validity of his metaphysical distinctions.  He does not define his terms.   But I am grateful for the attention he draws to the alleged need for such a “transmutation” and “integration” experience.  

In many NDEs, the tunnel experience is followed by an encounter with a Light which the patient identifies as his higher self.   This experience may not be the equivalent of reported encounters with a Being of Light (often Christ).  Rather, it may represent an alternative take on Howell’s observations about the integration of Rea and Herbert with their “soul.”  Here is Howell’s description of his own expereince of his “spirit’s” integration with his “soul:”  

“The integration of soul and spirit in man is an experience of growth which each individual must seek and obtain for himself before he is freed from the obligation of mundane life...I was praying in the Technique of Light, using an exercise of Convsiousness Breathing...Like a stroke of lightning, the vision came unexpectedly...Its effect abides with me even in the writing out of this
testimony...I experienced a spiritual sense of awareness that was similar to sight.  I sensed a dazzling whte light that enveloped my whole being, and permeated every cell of my body.   All energies of life were brought into perfect poise and seemed to be expanded infinitely.  Volumes of truth that were new to me swept across my consciousness as floodlights sweep across the stage.”  

“I could discern no form with my eyes but my spirit knew that the spiritual light had a form that merged with my physical body, a perfect complement interpenetrating each limb and organ and cell...It was not somthing or somebody apart from me...It was a rather familiar remembered self,
that I had lost for ages, and now having contacted, I recognize `her’ to be my soul...It is a man’soul in him integrating with his spirit in him...Before that time I did not know that i had a soul distinctly different from my spirit (131-137).”

[Dave:] “There is the implication that there exist spiritual (?) doctors and nurses who operate on spiritual bodies in a manner seemingly analogous to physical practices.”
________________________________________________________

During his NDE, Howard Storm’s astral body is shredded by multiple spirit assailants and he is left barely aware that he still exists.  A few years ago, an AK poster reported witnessing a similar dismemberment of an astral body which discouraged him from further astral exploration.  In Storm’s case, when Jesus comes to the rescue, He repairs Storm’s badly damaged astral body.   Like other astral adepts,  Robert Bruce reports visiting astral “Hospitals during his OBEs.  In my thread on medical researcher, Phyllis’s NDE, she reports  spirit doctors performing healing "surgery" on her astral body.   As as result, she no longer needs the planned earthly surgery when she returns to her body.  Howell seems to bear independent witness to such astral surgery, though the “surgeons” are inviisible to him.  .
 
[Dave:] “There is the implication of a "chasm" across which the "spirit body" had to get across, but we do not know its nature nor why to cross it.”
_______________________________________

I suspect that this “chasm”, “the tunnel” of NDEs, and the “inky void” of many OBEs are images for different astral conditions that are easily confused and wrongly merged.   If this “chasm” is a barrier that is hard for some to cross and cannot be bridged with the help of discarnate loved ones, then it seems vital to learn more about how this impasse should be handled.   Howell’s team
ease the couple’s transition.  But how would Rea and Herbert have fared without their earthly assistance?   Hopefully, they would have only experienced a  delay, but this question needs to be settled by astral research and not by New Age feel-good dogmatism.    

[Dave:] “ It is implied that dead relatives may be present at death, but their abilities are limited by laws in that place.”
_______________

Yes, this implication impresses me because I would not predict it on the basis that Howell’s circle is merely imagining a bogus series of astral events.   Yet New Age projectors sometimes allege that discarnate helpers have some disadvantages in comparison with earthly wannabe retrievers.  

[Dave:] “Similarly, questions about the presence or absence of Herbert's dead relations are your own, and carry the implicit assumption that not mentioning them means that they were not present. Your suggestions about reasons and their importance for not being present are speculation on your part.
____________________________________________________

I am trying to clarify issues raised by Howell; I was not making any dogmatic claims.  True, in any given case, no one can know whether other relatives lurk unnoticed in the astral background.   But I am drawing attention to the bigger picture.  What determines the composition of an NDE greeting party.   NDE reports often mention the presence of only one or just few deceased relatives in the greeting party.    The spirits present are often identified.   The question of the absence of other relatives whose presence might be expected seems to be overlooked and is worth investigating.  

There are 4 possible reasons for their absence.
(1) Their earth memories have become dormant.  ES and Classical Channeling support the view that such memory loss is the norm.   In the case of channeling, this claim seems to be in tension with the chatty access mediums allegedly have to discarnate spirits.  Is this contradiction to be resolved by supposing that mediums contact the discarnate loved one’s mind in a manner of which that loved one is not consciously aware?  I don’t know.  ES imples  that “the Lord” may on occasion permit memory restoration, but the circumstances of this restoration are clouded in mystery.

(2) For other reasons, they do not know about the passing of their close family member.  Perhaps, they need to be informed by discarnate spirits who specialize in such greetings.

(3) Perhaps, participation in such a greeting party is possible for residents of some spirit planes and not  others.  For example, such participation may be impossible for residents of lower hellish planes.  .

(4) Perhaps, the absentee discarnate relatives were not as emotionally close to the newly dead as the latter imagined.  

Don