bets

I find I am a bit hypersensitive of criticisms of Lucifer..probably because that name and mine have the same Lation root, and my college friends affectionately called me "Lucifer" on occasion.

Over a period of time I have come across different stories about the meaning of calling a devil "Satan" or "Lucifer." I was delighted to see some of them collected on our new old friend, wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

This account includes a version of the Sufi interpretation I once read, here attributed to J. Campbell. The symbolism is intense.

Enough for now. I vote for all these accounts being personification.

And I also believe in my heart of hearts that you Don, you are going to find just exactly what you think you will when you get to your heaven. The light, music, all the rest. I know it will be so nice for you. I am not sure what you believe "hell" is like. Perhaps you can share that with us also. (Am I to assume correctly that you also believe in Hell along with this Heaven?) Is there a fear that if things don't go quite right, and you mess thing up, that you might be spending a short time there in  hell before you move on to heaven?
Joe

Labelling higher states of consciousness "heaven" is of course somewhat arbitrary.  In 2 Corinthians 12 Paul describes his apparent OBE visit to Paradise which he locates in the traditional Pharisaic location, the 3rd heaven, and this presumes a multiplicity of heavens and especially a first and 2nd heaven.  Yet ancient Jewish descriptions of the first 2 heavens create a picture more akin to a hell or purgatory.  In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul intriguingly claims that believers whose works don't bear up under close scrutiny are nevertheless ultimately "saved, yet so as by fire."  This text smacks of the later Catholic concept of purgatory.  Yet in ancient Judaism the salvation process "saved, yet so as by (purifying figurative) fire" takes place in Gehenna, Jesus' term for Hell.  The ancient rabbis taught that souls with a rudimentary spirituality spend about a year in Gehenna before they are ready to rise to a higher plane. 

One of the most famous sayings of Jesus about Heaven in the King James Bible is this: "in my Father's house are many mansions (John 14)."  But in the Greek the term translated "mansion" is "mone," which literally means "resting place" or "inn."  The thought is that new arrivals have temporary lodgings in a long journey towards an ever closer oneness with God; and that is precisely how the early church Father, Origen (225 AD) interprets this saying.  But if God is the ground of all being, then Jesus seems to imply that we ultimately become more and more one with all creation, just as mystics often report of their ineffable experiences.

SWEDENBORG ON THE NATURE OF HEAVEN AND HELL

In the heavens communication is telepathic, and so, is no longer based on human languages.  As ES puts it, "They are not able to utter...any name (AC 1876)."  There is no time as we know it in the heavens.  This transcendence of time explains why ES's angels can be so accurate in their predictions. Modern adepts are often fooled by astral  predictions that emanate from ignorant but pretentious lower planes.   

ES encounters beings from other planets in the universe who expand the immensity of heaven.  In the heavens, everyone lives in societies with people of similar uses and disposition.  tHE stereotype of a boring heaven of sterile rest and worship is admittedly reinforced by many Christians.  But ES's astral travels reveal that heaven is far from a place of idleness.  Everyone there has spiritual work to do:

"Some spirits have believed that heavenly happiness consisted of a life of leisure.  Then they were shown in many ways that heavenly life consists of...thoughtful actions...that are services to others...So that these people might feel shame...they are allowed to perceive what kind of life this [idleness] would be.  They see that it is thoroughly miserable (HH 403)." 

ES's picture fits neatly with biblical teaching.  St.
Paul asks rhetorically: "Don't you know that the saints will judge the world?...Don't you know that we will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3)?"  The Greek for "judge" can be translated "exercise jursidiction over" and the Greek for "world" ("kosmos") can be translated "universe".  So Paul's questions might be translated; "Don't you know that we will have jurisdiction over angel?"  and "Don't you know that the saints will exercise jurisdiction over the universe?"  Thus understood, the latter question may imply a future role for humans as co-creators with God in new universes!  In this regard, the identity of the "us" in Genesis 1:27 is intriguing: "Let us make man in our image."  This can be neither a literary we nor a reference to the Trinity.  So the "us" may refer to intelligent beings from prior creations and may thus hint at our ultimate destiny.  ES learns that there is government in heaven, but only those who are truly useful to others are allowed such power.  This insight parallels Jesus claim that the extent of personal civic jurisdiction in heaven depends on one's faithfulness in performing earthly responsibilities (Luke 19:16-19).

Spirits in the hells and the intermediate realm (ES's "world of spirits") are visible to souls in the heavens.  But "the heavens are not visible to spirits in the world of spirits unless their spiritual sight has been opened (HH 583)."  Those bound for heaven sense that there is an ultimate higher power and are determined to relate to it. 

In my view, Robert Monroe's aversion to the loving God of conventional spiritualities prevents him from exploring the heavens beyond Focus 27.  Some of his "Knowns" seem traceable to misunderstandings emanating from the lower astral planes:  e.g.

"These to me are Knowns: This, our Creator...does not demand worship, adoration, or recognition, does not punish for `evil' or `misdeeds', does not intercede or interdict in our life activity (UJ 224-25)." 

His biased terms "demand" and "punish" deflect attention away from two  truths disclosed by Swedenborg's angels: (1) the heavenbound delight in in worshiping God and feasting on His love.  (2)  Many people are truly evil, but they in effect punish themselves by choosing to ignore the godly loving path in favor of the hellbound path on the basis of the principle like attracts like. 

Entities from the lower astral convey a contrary narcissistic principle to Monroe: "There is no good, there is no evil.  There is only expression (UJ 217)."  This stress on self (valueless self-expression) stands in contrast with the resolve of the heavenbound according to ES: their humility and respect for the greatness of creation fuels a deep resolve to be with others and be of significant use to them.  In the heavens, says ES, the joy of one is the joy of all.  By contrast, the general design of the hells is an orientation towards self over others.  This splits existence apart and causes hell's  dissension.  Despite this, those with this orientation will most comfortably drift towards the company of likeminded people in the hells because they nevertheless feel better there than in the company of saints.  It just suits them better than the heavens. 

According to Monroe, in the astral planes, "there is no greater, there is no lesser.  There is only balance (UJ 217)."  This claim echoes ES's principle which, in my view, expresses this truth more accurately: "The relationship of heaven and hell...is like that of two opposites that act against each other.. This action and reaction yield a state of equilibrium within which everything exists...This is the spiritual balance which provides us with our freedom for thinking and intending (HH 536-57)."  Thus, hell is part of the enrichment of ultimate possibilities.   

Don

  A holistically logical counter balance:

  This is the full prose that Monroe wrote

Quote:

    As I keep stressing time and time again, an individual's perceptual capacity and accuracy is directly related to their average, consistent degree of attunement to PUL and the Creator Consciousness within themselves. 
   Bob Monroe was definitely an "old Soul", but he was no Yeshua, therefore, he didn't have 100% clear and accurate perception and translation.  Let's take a guess that Bob had about 85% overall, average/consistent attunement to PUL when UJ was written.  That leaves 15% that is muddy, distorted, not clear. 

  Bob got the above ROTE from Beings and a level where they were 100% attuned to PUL and the Creator.  However, he still had to perceive and then translate it.  Not only that, he had to put it into this funny, limited, lacking form of communication called human "words" and "language".  Hence, how likely is it completely true to what these Beings gave it to him as?  Probably unlikely it's 100% correct as THEY know and understand it. 

    These are physics that apply to spiritual reality, just as much as gravity, light, magnetism, electricity, etc apply to the physical world.  These spiritual laws are far, far more pervasive and universal, because they don't just apply to this dimension but ALL dimensions.  There is NO going around the Law of Like attracts and begets Like. 

    Regarding what Monroe received and translated, try to imagine this: You are are completely immersed in the full Oneness of the Whole.  You can fully see each individual in the pattern, and the larger pattern at the same time.  You can see that for the most part, the overall movement of stuck parts of the Whole is towards Love and growing in that awareness of Oneness with the Whole and with our Source. 

    From that ultimate perspective, you understand that limited use of freewill, is almost an invariable or give in by some parts of the Whole (you yourself once experienced that).  Using one's freewill in a limited way and contrary to the Creator's ways and beingness can be considered as "evil" or "sin".  But, from a MUCH larger, broader perspective that almost none of us humans currently have (important to keep in mind), it really could be considered more "temporary immaturity or distraction". 

  Evil, like cold in physics, is not an objective force and reality.  It's a temporary one that the children of the Creator have temporarily manifested. The Creator did not (there is no negativity/lack of Love within the Creator Itself).  When those children fully grow up and become adults, it ceases to exist, and the foundation of consciousness and reality is revealed--Love, and we becme Companions and Co-Creators with the First Self. 

  So, in a very real and ultimate sense, there no good and no evil, for all of it comes from and goes to Love.

Now, while that is a truth, it's not a very helpful, pragmatic, and comforting truth to those of us still caught up in suffering and the duality/polarity schism.  For us, suffering is very real and should not be discounted.  It's real for those Completed Beings too, because they feel everything we feel and know everything we know. 

  They do care, and they do, usually, try to gently guide us back to them and our Source. 

   To make casual judgements that Monroe was just getting deceived by immature or deceptive beings, only shows one's own ignorance and lack of deeper insight into the nature of reality from a bigger perspective. 
    Did Monroe get it all right?  Course not, as mentioned, he was no Yeshua in the flesh.  However, he was/is a Helper, and worked for Yeshua unbeknownst to himself for a long time.  He eventually did learn this.  In fact, he was given Big clues even earlier on.

  In his second book, he talks about viewing the craziness of the Earth from outside of same (before he got involved I believe), and a large White curl, comes up to him and says something like, it's craziness down there, they're killing and hurting each other, let me tell you about a plan...

    Whom was this large White curl?   None other than Yeshua's Soul.  He meets him later in his last book, when he asks his guidance if he could meet the most mature/evolved human in his space/time and meets one "He/She" aka the Risien, immortal Christ Yeshua.  What does He/She say to him, "let me tell you about a plan..." 

   Now, Bob was concerned about being overly associated with religion and Christianity, so he kept some of his knowledge and awareness hidden, and even added a bit of misdirection. But, the man was married to a Christian mystic for Christ's sake.     
  The man was interested enough in Yeshua, to have his then friend and military trained remote viewer, Joe McMoneagle, to try to remote view a subject that was sealed in an envelope (see McMoneagle's book Time Machine...).  Joe picked up pretty quick that he was viewing Jesus Christ and his influence/impact on humanity (which LATER Monroe revealed the contents of the envelope after the remote viewing was done). 
   Interestingly, Joe saw this Being of immense power, had come in human form a number of times at different points in humanity's history to correct/redirect it's path.  Oddly, for some reason, he often had the same form and appearance, and for some reason, had reddish hair. 

    It's very clear that some speak more from knowing and truth, and some speak more from ignorance, supposition, prejudice, and distorted belief systems.

  The following was one of Monroe's bigger errors/misinterpretations:

“[Advanced souls] know that they cannot change the system and they don't wish to. They are content to enjoy themselves in the Earth Life System and the only influence they exert is to maximize their experience.” 

  Clearly, Monroe himself wasn't speaking completely out of real knowns and knowledge about this.  He was projecting his own beliefs onto the world.  He completely discounted the lives of countless Helpers like Dr. King, Gandhi, Yeshua, Susan B. Anthony, etc who specifically came to nudge the system in certain, more positive directions.  Deep down, Monroe didn't want that kind of responsibility and degree of self sacrifice and so he took the easier way and convinced himself that the system couldn't be changed and truly mature Souls don't try to change it. 
     He was comforting himself/his own ego, as many, many humans do constantly.  Yet, ironically, he himself did try to nudge the system with The Monroe Institute and Hemi-Sync. He could have gone a few steps farther had he had more self discipline and deep desire.  He could have realized full Christ Consciousness while connected to a body.  But as the Teacher of teachers once said, "The Spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak."

  Some have come, are here and who are as we speak, in the process of overcoming the flesh and world, even as He did, and just like with Him, most know them not and spit on them instead.
         

When a person's comments are found to have no basis in reality, then it is usually a sign that there is a lack of clear perception taking place.

One example might be to say that a person is speaking out against someone or something, when in reality, no such thing took place. Applied to this case, the claim that I was speaking out against Monroe is a gross distortion of reality, as I said nothing against him. I simply spoke against my blind faith in him.

Another example might be to take something harmless and to twist it out of proportion and make it something it is not. Applied to this case, I said that I was a fanboy of Monroe, and was told that this was disrespectful. Let's take a look at the definition of fanboy: "a boy or man who is an extremely or overly enthusiastic fan of someone or something." The term has no reflection on the object of obsession, so it's not offensive to Monroe. Nor does it have to do with anyone else. I expressed the fact that I was overly attached to his work with an appropriate term.

Yet another fine example of how making everything personal swiftly takes a thread off track. It was unnecessary to mention us "speaking out" against Monroe and trying to attribute it to our beliefs. Not only because your statement was false, at least concerning myself, but a more appropriate approach would be to directly address the content of what we are saying. If you have an issue of what is said about Monroe, then refute it with facts. Your ad hominems are getting old. The fact that you consider it disrespectful for me to call MYSELF a fanboy, which isn't even necessarily a negative term, shows just how bent you are on making everything a personal argument. If this continues you will be reported.

Perhaps it's possible to appreciate a post without necessarily agreeing with every single statement made. I don't know what the true nature of Monroe's experiences were. I'm not interested in what you think Don's motivations are, nor am I interested in what you think you need to prove to people on this forum. I'm interested in reading and discussing the topics on this forum and learning from it. Not arguing about personal issues.

What Monroe said is essentially nothing different from any other new age source or spirit channel that came before him. Now let's see if we can discuss this without making any personal remarks about anyone on the forum.