I used to have OBEs with all the effects, but eventually things reached the point where they are no longer necessary. In a way they are as necessary as seeing a tunnel during an NDE. One doesn't actually have to go through a tunnel in order to go to another realm.  Tunnels are created by higher level beings (perhaps a higher self) so a person will have a way to understand what's going on.

The same is true with out of body effects. Once a person reaches the point where he (or she) doesn't need to experience such effects in order to understand that something is going on, the need for such pagentry goes away.

Plus, I've found that it is possible to have OBEs with the effects where you experience something that was created by a higher level being for no other purpose than telling you something through a experiential and perhaps symbolic way.

Take Robert Monroe's experience of W.C. Fields.  I so much understand why a being would've chosen to present information to him in such a way. It was a symbolic way of saying that some aliens found out about humor from people. Certainly it is possible that there are aliens that didn't find out about humor on their own.

There is also the possibility that humor wasn't the only quality that was being spoken of. Rather, human-like qualities that some alien races weren't aware of before they made contact with human beings. Humor is just an example.

If one has lots of non-physical experiences and communicates with spirit beings (and aliens?) often, one is likely to find out that quite often experiences are created in a way that enables a person to understand something that actually takes place but is hard to comprehend if experienced as it actually exists.

Plus, there are occasions when we are told of what happens at levels of our being we aren't conscious of.

I have met Stephen LaBerge and asked him in person why he believes that there is no distinction between OBEs and lucid dreaming, and he said it was because he had never yet experienced a "genuine OBE" himself to convince him that they exist apart from a mere lucid dream. 

Yes, the line between lucid dreams and OBEs is more subtle than we realize, and yes we do slip between different states of consciousness which in turn alter our experience.  What starts out as a regular dream or lucid dream can turn into an OBE or real visit from a deceased loved one.  It doesn't have anything to do with the dream, reality, or "where" it takes place.  It has to do with our level of consciousness and our ability to perceive while maintaining that focus.

There's a reason why the most important thing Bruce teaches is the Feeling Love exercise.  Our moods can be compared to levels of consciousness.  For instance, you being in a bad mood and playing with your dog or kid will make for a different kind of experience than if you were in a great mood and spending time with your dog or kid.  The reverse is true too.  Sometimes someone else's mood rubs off onto us, changing us. 

The reason for the Feeling Love exercise is to raise your consciousness and make you able to perceive (receive and feel) that which you would not otherwise be able to experience. 

The same is true for the reasons behind focused attention.  Practicing and using focused attention has a way of raising consciousness and opening perception beyond its normal limits.  I'm not just repeating what Bruce teaches.  I actually speak from personal experience. 

But like you said, Don, the lines are very subtle.  It makes the transition between levels very easy, so much so that we sometimes have no idea we've gone through any change at all.  Meditation, prayer, focused attention, wishful thinking, and even daydreaming are all ways in which we can utilize moving through consciousness in order to reach a bigger picture perspective. 

As for looking for intrinsic differences between a LD and OBE, I'd say the difference is your focus of attention. If you discover you're asleep and dreaming, you can either remain focused on doing that, or you can choose to change your focus.  In most cases, this conscious effort changes not only the environment you're perceiving but also alters or raises your state of consciousness.  Your mental clarity enhances greatly.  The things previously occupying your attention in the dream melt away and move to greater, more important things (feelings and awareness). 

As for proof, I can't really provide it to anyone's satisfaction, but an example is that I was once having, for all intents and purposes, a regular dream.  When I realized I was dreaming and that it was not actual physical reality, everything changed.  I was now finding myself walking up in bed.  For a moment I thought it was physical reality, but then as I walked from my bedroom down the stairs, I saw my dad standing there smiling at me.  I realized, "This isn't physical reality either, Dad is dead."  Upon that conscious realization, my state of consciousness altered to something I can only describe as being "higher" than any other state I've ever been in.  Suddenly, I knew (without any proof or verification necessary or possible) that my dad's spirit was actually "here" visiting me, for real.  It wasn't a question of where we were or what reality we were in, or whether the dream scene was real, was a lucid dream, or an OBE.  What was real was sharing a moment with my dad consciously, together, in such a "high" state of consciousness and being that nothing else mattered at that moment.  Seconds before, I was questioning "is this physical reality?  No, it's just a dream."  But upon that shift to "being with my dad in spirit", nothing else mattered anymore. 

That's why I know how important it is to learn how to move oneself through various levels of consciousness, hold to maintain focused attention and awareness, and utilize these "higher" states.  I've only experienced them briefly and have certainly wished I could have held onto the state longer.  It's something I'm always personally working on and practicing. 

Vicky,

I'll use the analogy of my experience with speaking in tongues.  I grew up in a Pentecostal church and eventually had many high ecstasy experiences of speaking in tongues.  Interpretations of tongues can  occasionally be spectacular--helpful, even life-saving verifiable messages in Swahili and other tribal languages. But over time, I became convinced that 90% of tiongues is not divinely inspired but rather a learned mechanical reflex that produces ecstasy. 

Then one day  at age 16, I experenced the real thing.  I was on the verge of losing my faith due to doubts about the Bible and the reality of paranormal spiritual manifestations.  At a camp meeting place in western Manitoba I went on a long walk during which I challenged God to make Himself real to me.  I promised to serve Him with all my heart if He would do so, but said that my flawed sense of integrity would drive me from the faith, if He refused to come thruogh.  {Yes, I know God is not literally a "He.")

When I returned form the walk, I was ravenous, but decided to skip dinner and give the money that would have paid for the meal in the Tuesday evening service's offering.  After the service, I went forward to pray at the altar of the open amphitheater. I stayed there even after the lights were turned off.  After a half an hour, my heart was stone cold.  I was determined not to give in to wishful thinking or self-manipulation.  But then suddenly I felt what I can only describe as a supernatural warm breeze.  I was then enveloped by wave after wave of ever increasing liquid love so intense that I feared it might kill me.  I was possessed by the Holy Spirit and forced to speak in tongues at the top of my voice.  Soon curious spectators drifted into the amphitheater to sit and watch in awe what was happening to me.  I would later ask a lady why she came, and she replied, 'Don't you know?  Your face was glowing in the dark!"  One spectator, a skeptical Lutheran pastor, interrupted me: "I'm not into speaking in tongues at all, but I can tell that God is doing something special in your life.  Would you pray for me?"  I gently touched him and it was as if I electricuted him; he gushed forth in other tongues.  In my view, I experienced the level of love that some experience in NDEs when they encounter the Being of Light.  I later found descriptions of this experience that parallel my own imagery. 

My point is this: that experience of speaking in tongues was unquestionably the real thing, but I wouldn't expect to convince a skeptic of that claim.  Similarly, I believe OBEs can be real, despite the lack of verifications.  I just haven't had a self-authenticating OBE of the same order as that experience of speaking in tongues. 

Don

Vexing. The path is so mysterious. Some follow it and never have such powerful experiences. Other have them with no intent whatsoever. It is hard, at a certain point, to continue based on a single experience that happened several years ago...

Quote:


Don, the statement you made above has been on my mind for most of the day today.  Could you explain more of what you mean by "structure of the etheric"?

Thanks,
Kathy

Or perhaps what lies beyond time/space is so vast, diverse and beyond our ability to fully understand, combined with each explorer's ability to only perceive in the context of his/her own previous experiences (Moen's perceiver/interpreter), that such multiple interpretations are inevitable.  Many blind men examining an elephant sort of thing.

PauliEffect wrote: "But DeMarco claims that there are mall regions, probably with little or without any specific afterlife belief, where dead
people walk around and "buy" stuff, or just do nothing special in those shopping
centers."

Recoverer responds: "I didn't read what DeMarco wrote so it is hard to say, but an experience of "mall regions" might've been a symbolic representation of the state of consciousness some people are in after they die. If they gave no thought to spiritual growth while in this World (and didn't help others) and instead focused on materialistic interests etc., they might have a "mall-like" consciousness after they die.