I strongly believe that one experience is just as valid as any other, whether it is on the physical plane, in the dream state, out of body in the astral realms, during trance meditation, or any other altered state of consciousness.

The need for verifications seems to ignore the fact that these experiences are of a nonphysical nature, and therefore cannot be truly defined in physical terms. 

The universal law that undoubtedly rules not only the physical universe, but nonphysical reality as well, which is belief and thought create reality, gives a validity to the imagination which seems to be ignored or denied by most. (Don)

The infinite nature of consciousness is only truly known to those who have explored its depths and realities firsthand.  To me, calling someone's experience bogus just because it does not fit your view of reality, is simply bogus.

If you were to experience the connection I recently made with my higher consciousness while out of body, you would realize how real these types of experiences actually are... they are way more real than any physical experience is, as far as the levels of lucidity and awareness experienced, the intensity of emotions and the [nonphysical] senses, and the direct knowledge experienced. 

You cannot say that the physical is more real than the nonphysical, for they are all equally valid.  Likewise, you cannot say that one nonphysical reality is more valid than another.  They will simply be of a different nature and focus of consciousness. 

First hand experience is the key to making these realizations.  Holding limiting beliefs about nonphysical reality will only get so far until these self created dilemmas begin to impede your progress.

Don, I remember you saying that you have had a few OBEs.  However, your beliefs about the nature of OBEs and lucid dreams caused you to consider your experiences "bogus," and therefore have shut you off from any further exploration.  A simple change of beliefs in this area, even if temporary, would allow you to experience the true reality of these levels in a whole new light, and would open you to obtaining the direct knowledge experienced in these higher levels which you have seemed to cut yourself off from.

To be frank, I believe that verifications are something one focuses on when one hasn't taken the steps one needs to take in order to make contact with higher parts of one's self. Once one has done so, one's growth and experiences manifest in a way where it would be ridiculous to ask for verifications. If you had a good friend that you know you can trust, would you ask he or she to prove that he or she exists?

If we insist that experiences have to manifest within a particular dogmatic framework in order for them to be valid, it might be difficult for experiences to take place in a meaningful way.  Our higher self/guidance might decide to wait until we are willing to let go of our fear based beliefs to a degree where we will consider alternatives.

Regarding Emanuel Swedenborg, perhaps he was presented with information that people from his time period were able to accept. We are in a different age, and perhaps other explanations are more suitable.

This weekend I read a little of William Buhlman's first book (I can't remember the name).  His OBEs remind me of my OBEs, because his experiences were so much about what he needed to learn, rather than what his imagination spinned out.  He came to understand that we have higher parts of ourselves. He came to understand how spirit guidance is really there for us when it comes to OBEs.  I find it hard to believe that a deceptive being is more likely to be there when we go out of body, than a being we have a positive spiritual connection to.

R said: his experiences were so much about what he needed to learn, rather than what his imagination spinned out.
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this is what I understand obes and lucid dreams to do for us, we get something we need to look at that we believe, so we can grow into our fullness this way. generally, the obes and dreams seem subjective and mysterious, easily brushed aside in favor of logic. later on, we can see why they are subjective, as it's buried in the subconscious; it needs to become conscious. hemi sync or certain types of music as well can bring what's unconscious, into greater awareness.
Yet meditating on the meaning of dreams and obes  produces some glimpses of our ability to be creative of ourselves and our environment, as well creates what level we gravitate to upon transition.
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lively thread here. uhmm..concerning verification that you're growing into knowledge of who you are, I can say this from experience with obe and dream, lucid or not, that if you are shown something within these experiences which is not in your belief system, ie: something unbelievable, something crazy seeming..that is an indication it's simply something you've never considered could be true and you are forced to consider it's value upon awaking to C1. (what you've eaten has nothing to do with symbols given to you unless you're allergic to a food)
I like Doc's reminding us of the compressed awareness of C1. then on the other hand we know we sometimes have an expanded state also, which dreaming is like altered states of awareness.
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I believe R thinks certain sources of info is reporting the physical world is a mistake. I don't see these sources as saying that. in the sense that  we should have just stayed home where everything was perfect then we wouldn't be in such a mess.
These sources are quite radical because a radical approach is needed sometimes to get to the next phase of our development.

you might be interpreting that the world is going to disappear and therefore you might lose something; when looking at the title of a book with the word disappearance in it. the only loss is the loss of limited thinking which curtails our well being while physical and gives us an anxiety feeling to be thinking the same thing over and over. and not experiencing the joy of life.

You've heard of the term what happens after enlightenment? the same thing that happened before enlightenment. you chop wood, you carry water, only now it's not work. work has become pleasurable. the only thing that may be said to disappear is all of our fears, replaced with PUL. few reach that plateau in just one life but nothing is impossible but what that you say it is.

that's not what TMI has said either, that it's a mistake. the way I understand Curiosity Vision, we had free will to undertake the project of physical being, and forgot that there is more than being physical.
the way I explain it is that there comes a point where you look around at what everyone is believing, in every individual's life you may observe most of us seem to be trying to prove that we have indeed separated from God, (our goodness, our perfection, our peace of mind) and if they believe that, they go about seeing if they can find verification that the separation from God took place. then we take up sides and war about who is holier...

in addition there is this hidden trait we commonly hold, whereby we project guilt out of ourselves and onto another person, nation, etc. we make them wrong so we can feel innocent ourselves. that is a mistake, an incorrect perception that needs correction before we can move forward as an intelligent species experimenting in physical nature without destroying the entire planet.

so I can see where R might get this idea certain literature is making life seem quite meaningless here. The only thing I can see that is meaningless is to go to war and kill your brother to prove you are right and he is wrong. I'm not talking about defending your loved ones on necessary occasions. but there will come a time the world as we know it now will disappear and there will be no more acts of aggression, or physical defense measures needed because we will realize how temporary a single life really is and we will wish to cooperate with one another rather than simply remove the problem by killing it.

any reason is meaningless to me to kill, maim, torture, etc. and that is the mistake the individual ego is doing, and what this ego may do, there comes a time there can be no justification for actions like this, and therefore he is in error, his life is a mis...take. he has failed to love his brother.
Now I hear the draft is no longer in force. so you see we slowly make progress to value human life by at the least, not making a young man go and be killed if he doesn't want to.

even though we are forgiven when we are sorry for killing, we are all not in the same place of evolvement, so we are going to interpret our studies differently no matter what. and those who do not see oneness, they will see separation, and thats just where they are for the moment.

the gist of it is, I can see myself plainly in spirit, saying to my group, whatever, hey, I see now, I made it all up in my mind, and what I believed is what I saw. what I did, if I injured another, I saw them as separated from God and myself as one with God. I should have seen they are also one with God. truth of oneness, it can spread just as fast as a virus, only it's a beneficial virus.

for the most part, R's sources are saying the same thing as mine, and our differences lie in our interpretative reflections and differing experiences.  I don't see my higher self as active in full measure here, but what that I allow it to do so with my acceptance, that I'm able to trust God and higher self as one. I rather see my body as a simple hologram and my ego as subservient to god's will, but I always have to ask to be reminded, I am wanting God's will, for a hologram is nothing really that is going to last and I constantly have to ask what the highest good is, because my ego does not know. (C1)

rather, it's been a gift to me. my life. I am glad I came here. it was no mistake. I want to see a golden age. it will have to be in a different body I think. perhaps I might be able to catch some glimpses of what awaits the ones who hold up a torch..sounds good.

Hello, Don, and welcome back.

In reply to your question, I would have to agree with you to a certain extent. It would be wonderful to have a way to verify experiences with more concrete examples which can be shown to have a factual basis in physical reality.

The coincidences and other "spiritual" experiences which are noted here as proof of "afterlife" visits may be missed entirely by those viewing them.

I don't have an answer for you. So far, this all seems very personalized for the individual exploring, for the most part. There are some interesting exceptions, and I hope for more verifications which will be reasonable evidence for skeptical readers, as well as reason for hope by those such as yourself.

Don I see it as when you need verification it is because you don't really believe. That's true or both Christians and for New Age believers. Many people look all their lives for truth and for God through religions yet never find it. The same goes for a lot of different beliefs and doctrines. Can it be proven that there is God? I mean real proof. Not some book that was changed and rewritten a multitude of time in order to suit the ruling over the masses. Not age old stories about swarms of insects or floods or burning bushes that only one person apparantely saw. Proof. Its like me saying that there is life after death. In fact there is no death. You could say "prove it" and I couldn't do so. For me its all about belief. If you believe it to be, then it is so. You seem o believe in a Christian style God. I have never seen your proof but I know that's what you believe. Now just because I believe in something more than that, does it make it not what is? None of us are wrong Don. None of us need saving from ourselves, belief wise that is. I except your beliefs. They are your truth. The difference for me is that I don't need this proof you speak of. I know I am following the correct path. There is a lot of mes out there helping me move in the necessary direction. Now this proof you seek, most likely you will never find it until you die.(Of course then you will know I was right. lol)

if we come from another angle, to think in terms of how there is power in numbers, we think about the collective consensus agreement, where we all think the world is flat, as it certainly looks flat from where we're standing.

that would be an example of our consensus agreement, and that we all can see how we might get into a concept of having fallen into error, sin as it's called in biblical times. and what ACIM is saying is that the sin never happened, only that we accept it did, and then we live a guilty life, believing we must have done something wrong.

we punish each other also this way. back to the power in numbers concept, we somehow are so creative, within our minds, we created the entire world of our collective oneness, that creative power.
ACIM calls the seeming separation from God that we believe we have accomplished, and which Monroe has termed it as an addiction to live countless lives, attempting to "get it right."

then you have this, gamble or experiment within this area to look at, but really ELS is quite addictive if life after life we end up paying off debts we owe to one another.

it's mind boggling to think on the subject. the separation is called the tiny mad idea that the entire sonship had, that we could break off and make a world, and make death real, have the power of life and death in our own hands.

the positive outlook is that we have J as an example of one who was teaching the art of forgiveness of our fellow man, and that we would return through learning to let go of the world and return to our origin point, and God seems to be patiently awaiting us to wake up from our nightmares, self created, whereby we think we have been very bad to have left in the first place.

if you look at some of the ascended masters teachings, they do have quite alot of difference in their demeanor and behavior, for instance, there's no reason for them to stick around after enlightenment, in a body. J could have stayed around, however, he finished his work here, must be better where he went! he earned it.
but he's still watching and waiting and aiding the rest of us, by telling us to teach only love, for that is what you are.

if you don't believe that is what you are, then think back over your life, the only times you felt good was when you felt love. and we're back to Monroe's loosh analogy as well, to consider PUL is what is eternal among all the illusions we are beset with.

just consider, it may be true, we are trying to teach each other we are other than love, whenever we are judging each other as wrong.

I think it is very dangerous to live a life here, as none of us get out of here alive.   

Don-

Have you noticed how so many of the PEs posted on that forum never amount to much of anything?

Seems obvious that a controlled PE could be useful to see if it's legitimate.  For instance, Joe and Mary agree to meet at the crystal or the Park and agree to request a guide to show them something specific.  Doesn't matter what.  A blue vase with flowers would suffice.

Then, when the PE is over, Joe and Mary report separately to a third person before having any contact with each other.

Seems simple.

On an unrelated subject- ever notice that now that everyone has a cell phone camera they carry around everywhere, there have been hardly any pictures of UFOs?

Does that mean that aliens know we now can easily document their existence so they stay away, or might that mean something altogether different?

R

Don-

Did you happen to also see a W.C. Fields character through your scope who was lamenting that his home planet has lost its sense of humor, so he is visiting Earth to collect jokes to cheer up his peeps?

WHAT??  You didn't?  Your problem is that you are way too skeptical for your own good.  We might have to send you to one of our re-education camps somewhere in downstate Virginia.

Stop by on your way back, you'll be re-tested before being allowed to return home.

R