Whether astral travel, OBEs, and NDEs are experienced by Christians, New Agers, secularists, and others, one fact stands out as a serious problem of credibility: as a whole, these experiences are riddled with inconsistencies demonstrating that many of them are bogus or that the spiritual being contacted are deceptive or mistaken in their claims. Some Christian NDEs feature a Jseus (Being of Light) who suspiciously restricts communations to commentary with copious biblica prooftexts.  I attribute such NDEs to projections from the believer's imagination.   By contrast, atheist howard Storm's NDE conversation with Jesus is permeated by novel insights and claims, some of which can be intriguingly verified.  As a whole, Storm's Jesus would be deemed an imposter by cnnventional Christians.  Similarly, the glib way many New Age explorers claim to contact their Disk or Higher Self smacks of unwitting concoction by the imagination.  

From my research, Emanuel Swedenborg [ES] generally seems to have the most impressive verifications.  But even he seems subject to bogus contacts such as his visits to other planets in our solar system and his conversations with the inhabitants of those planets.  True, in ES's day, even the great German philosopher, Emanuel Kant, believed that other planets in our solar system are inhabited by intelligent life that cen breath in a satisfactory atmosphere.  Similarly, astral adepts like Robert Bruce and Gordon Phinn claim to have "seen" a hidden alien base on the dark side of the moon.  Are these adepts deluded by deceptive spirits?  Or is something else going on?

When one encounters spirits (real or imagined) during astral projection, one's preconceptions and interpretations are unavoidably activated.  The spirit or light often declines to identify itself, and so, becomes the target of our projected identities.  That spirit typically allows the astral explorer to take the inititiative and how the explorer does this may determine whether or not he slips into a lucid dream type of consciousness without realizing it.  In the lucid dream state, experience and communications can be shaped to reinforce preconceptions.

I theorize that this interpretive bias can amount to an unintentional transformation of a genuine astral experience into an analogous lucid dream in which the unconscious need to be in charge can play out.  The shift from genuine astral realms to sheer imagination can be subtle enough to escape the explorer's notice and lead to purely imaginative conversations that reflect the percipient's expectations.  Perhaps this is the explanation of why even the most gifted astral adpets can at times be so deceived.  If I am right, then criteria would need to be identified to help one detect this transition.  What do you think?

Don

Don:

I believe there are explanations other than a person's imagination playing tricks on he or she or a person being deceived by a deceptive being.

Beings who represent the light surely know that this World has many belief systems, none of which is completely true. They also know that our life in this World is very temporary compared to eternity, and not what our existence is truly about. Therefore, I believe they provide information according to need, without having to feel that they can "only" share what is absolutely true on every single occasion. If they could only share what is absolutely true, many people wouldn't understand, and the needs of many people wouldn't be accounted for.

Consider near death experiences. Some are more fundamentalist than others.  The usual explanation is that it is a matter of what a person's beliefs will allow a person to experience. I believe there is more to it than this. It is also a matter of what a person will be able to integrate into his or her life after his or her experience is over, and how other people will benefit from what this person shares about about his or her experience.

Not all people are open to the same message. Some will believe that an NDE is created by Satan if it contradicts the Bible in any way. NDEs that are fundamentalist in nature are created so that to some degree a love message is included, with the hope that the people who read this experience will be inspired by the love portion. If they are inspired by the love message enough, perhaps they will be open to a more middle ground experience such as Howard Storm's experience.  If they are inspired by the love portion of a middle ground experience, perhaps they will open up to considering near death experiences and other sources of information that are more love oriented than fear oriented.

Eventually a person will get to the point where the love in his or heart stirs so strongly, there is no way such a person is going to allow his or her self to accept explanations that involve many Souls ending up in hell for all of eternity, simply because they didn't come around to believing in a certain way, or because they did something such as fall in love with a person who has the same gender. They'll also realize that it isn't okay to look at others as if they are being misled by satan and/or one of his supposed demons.

I believe that people like Howard Storm and Betty Eddie provide a bridge for people who are trying to move from a fundamentalist way of seeing things to a more moderate way of seeing things, when they state things such as it doesn't matter what religion you follow. It is more about what kind of person you are. Perhaps a fundamentalist person will realize that many people follow the religion they follow not because they are evil, but because this is the religion they learned about when they were children. Perhaps they will realize that true admiration for that which is divine doesn't come through fear, but through love.

When it comes to OBEs and lucid dreams I've had a lot, and I've found that they always serve an instructive purpose. I can tell that they are created by my higher self/spirit guidance. I've learned more through these experiences than I could by reading a book.

Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen aren't the only people who have found out about the existence of their I-there/disk/Oversoul/higher self/total self/whatever you want to call it.  People have found out about such a level of being without knowing that others have done so.  Why do you have a problem with this way of viewing things? Because this viewpoint isn't spoken about in the Bible? Such a way of thinking hardly fits in with some of the things the Bible speaks about. My guess is that Jesus knew about disks quite well, however, he didn't speak about such things to the masses, because most people from the time period wouldn't know how to make use of such information. Higher selves aren't evil demons that stand between people and God and try to replace God. They are our link to God and an extension of God at the same time.

If there is one thing I've found, fear will prevent you from experiencing the World of spirit to a significant degree. I believe it is important for people to use their discrimination, but it is more important for them to understand that if they have pure intentions, the light beings who are close to them will be there for them when they reach out to them.  Even if a person does get fooled, at least ways this person had the courage and faith to try to make contact. I've found that there are great rewards in doing so.

Don-

Seems to me that it would be better to establish criteria to identify a genuine astral experience as opposed to criteria to identify if a transition was made to a lucid dream.

Also, criteria need to be used for retrievals.  Personally I think the vast majority of retrievals are simply the results of a person's wanting to believe he/she has really contacted a deceased person.  There are simple ways to establish evidence of a genuine retrieval but for whatever reason, such evidence is never obtained.  For example, SS #s, street addresses, etc etc.

As to alien bases on the far side of the moon, this has been the object of speculation and science fiction writers for many years.  We now know what the far side looks like, just like the side facing the earth.  If an astral adept "travels" to the far side, with a preconception that alien bases may be there, chances are very good he will report that he "saw" them.  Now, considering that aliens would have to have the technology to get here in the first place without being detected, it is somewhat silly to think they would need to hide or even need bases.

ES warned about the high amount of deception in the afterlife.  Therefore, it's entirely plausible to suppose that his contacts with alien life forms were the result of such deceptions.

Bottom line for me is simply this- why should any of this concern us?  We're all going to die some day, and we will either survive death or not.  In the meantime, isn't it far more important to devote our lives by helping others?

It's all going to sort itself out in God's own time-line anyway.

Don,

I’m not sure that criteria could be developed because all experience including that of the astral realms is subjective and relative to an individual’s conscious experiences and beliefs about those experiences. As you mention, we humans seem to have a tendency to interpret and rationalize what we don’t understand. This always seems to be based on the things we do understand or at the very least have heard or read about so it seems entirely possible that we project what we know and believe onto whatever we come across regardless of whether or not we consider it to be physical or non-physical.

I don’t consider myself an adept astral explorer, but what I have experienced during meditation and higher states of consciousness (not sleeping or dreaming) I see, feel, and know certain information as an observer. In altered states of consciousness that seems to be all I really am… an observer, and I’m not inclined to interact with what I see, only observe it. From this standpoint of observation if I’m given instruction to take an action, I can do so, but it seems strange in that I am watching or observing me doing what I was instructed to do so in that regard it does seem like a projection or a “movie” where I’m an observer, watching me do whatever I was instructed to do.

One example is when I was living outside of LA in 1971. Just before the earthquake hit during meditation I observed myself flying over the fault line where I could see the earth movement deep inside the earth. Minutes later the ground I was sitting on literally began to rock and roll.

To me the difference from that of a lucid dream is that in the dream I’m not an observer, I’m right in the middle of the action. In a lucid dream I’m completely in control and if the dream is going in a direction I don’t like I can simply change it to something I do like.

Kathy

Greetings Rog,

  I can tell from my retrieval assignments that I'm not considered very 'skilled!' So yes, I think there are levels of proficiency. 'Skilled' to me includes not only openness to the reality and energies of spirit, but also the ability to concentrate, vitality, degree of caring concern, etc. My experiences begin to fade while I'm with the subject, so I assume I lack concentration and vitality to question further.

Those people you mentionned aren't familiar to me, so I wouldn't know where to put them on a proficiency scale.
Once people get in the public eye and have to charge money for their work, alot of concerns could affect the results.

Nothing bests personal experience!  I'm so glad you've had such an encounter ! 

Bets

<<I can't help but wonder: How will New Agers rationalize the inevitable coming failure of December 21, 2012 to mark any turning point in the development of human consciousness?  >>

Don-

The same way the Jehovah Witnesses rationalized why the world did not end in 1975 as their magazines repeatedly warned.  They claim now that 1975 was simply the first "step" in reaching Armageddon.

R

It seems likely Don that as Kathy and others of us have said above that it's probably unwise to seek to apply rigid objective scientific logic to the astral.

As before it in a sense seems to be programmed to deliver to our beliefs/expectations, but to mix this with manifesting in cause/consequence space/time like (but not quite) terms - which reinforces the likelihood that while it's in some ways a bit like the physical, it can also be whatever we (at a probably unconscious level) want it to be.

We're already seeing here in the physical many observer determined effects which mean that a purist application of scientific observation is not universally applicable.

That's not to rubbish scientific method, nor for that matter when it's clear that most experience is highly subjective and open to all sorts of interpretation to place it all on a pedestal. Especially not when so much of our interpretation is driven by needs and belief systems.

Prophecy/prediction is equally unreliable. I'd for example not want to bet on what exactly if anything is going to happen in 2012 - notwithstanding that my gut feeling suggests that the world is heading for a critical point in respect of many issues like population, the financial system, spirituality, climate, resources and so on.

But perhaps as Bets suggests it's unnecessary for this crazy (and allegedly illusory reality and afterlife) to be anything more than subjective.

Perhaps it's no more than a teaching environment in which events and outcomes have no reality or importance whatsoever - that it's only their result in terms of loosening our belief in separation, individuality and the dog eat dog rules of this reality, and the development of our ability to connect again with and see in terms of spirit and love that matters....

So perhaps it's another case of needing to head for the middle ground - of avoiding the extremes of flap-happy anything goes gullibility and fundamentalist dogma regarding spiritual matters in favour of a more nuanced and open stance.

That's not to dismiss the need to live right in this reality - subjective or not conditions of excessive suffering are not amenable to spiritual progress.

The problem is perhaps that we are so driven to rush to judgement/interpretation of events, and consequently into beliefs, that we struggle so much to simply observe and remain open enough to learn - we end up at one or other polarity.