And where would you be waiting?  And what would you be doing while you were waiting?

jdee190 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2011 at 8:12pm:


Relax -it's false.

Dave.

KPat E. wrote on Jul 31^st, 2011 at 12:56am:


Nothing. You would not have a clue of your existance until the resurrection. It would be like a long sleep.

I think only a minority of Christians believe this. Most others believe in an immediate afterlife.

I am a Catholic, and it teaches we are eternal and when we die, the afterlife is immediate

hi jdee when u die u go straight to heaven ,no doubt about it dianna3

Very good and interesting posts.

I find the evidence for the resurrection to be overwhelming.

Also, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy further strengthens his claim to be the Son of God.

No credible historian will deny he existed, however there are 2 choices, either he was an insane liar or the Son of God.

Also we have the apostles, when Christ was crucified the apostles were scared and timid and went into hiding, however when Jesus appeared to them after he rose from the dead, they changed and spread the word only to be persecuted and 11 out of 12 died by martyrdom for the faith. Would they really suffer this for a lie?

We also have the transformation of Paul. Paul hated Christians are persecuted and killed them. But Christ appeared to him and Paul then went on to die as a martyr for Christ. What other reason would he have changed for if Jesus wasnt who he said he was?

These are facts which any historian will not deny.

What are E.T. groups?

Justin, you say you follow the teachings of Jesus so you must also believe that he is our Savior and died on the cross for our sins? As he said this.

Crossbow, as a Christian, do you think the afterlife will be different than what traditional Christianity envisions? After being on this website for a while I think so!

Also what do you make of the other religions who love God with all their heart but dont accept Jesus? Will they get to Heaven? I hope they do

  Your welcome Crossbow.  Yup, that's the idea basically.  Interesting about some of your experiences.  Just with E.T. groups alone, there are so many different ones out there that it would be hard (and pointless) to count.  But, as you touched on there are also various non human and nonphysical beings not necessarily "E.T." who are also involved with the Earth directly.  Truly our Universe is a huge community of many different consciousnesses.  (when i was a child, i had the strange notion of wanting to know and to be friends with all beings and people)

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  Sounds like it.  Indeed an interesting time, and you're right it spans a large time frame, but it's a bit like an irregular sine wave in that there are peaks of intensity within even the general/larger cycle of intensity and great change.   We are currently in and coming to the zenith point of one of those peaks or spikes of more intensity.  Currently, it feels to be about 10 or so more years within this, in the probable sense. 

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  While i don't tend to think of myself as this or that, i completely understand and agree with the sentiment.  Another self of mine was considered more of a "Gentile" during that time, met and was moved by this Teacher of teachers, and i've/we've been "hooked" since in the sense that i know and understand that he was the closest thing to a perfect spiritual pattern of livingness within the Earth. (but i've known and interacted with him many times in the Earth before he was known as "Yeshua", other lives and selves)  Truly when we saw and observed Yeshua, we saw and observed Source expression and "personality" itself in pure, undiluted form.  No other teacher before or since has expressed it so purely and powerfully. 

  Knowing what i know about him, it's natural to look to him as an example and standard to compare oneself in relation to.  It helps one to keep on a straighter and more direct path, if one can live up to it and be honest about self. 

 

Again, very interesting read! Thank You

One reason I believe he is the Saviour is because he fulfilled Old Testamenj prophecies. It was prophesised he would be born of a virgin, born in bethlehem, perform miracles, be crucified, rise from the dead etc.

If he wasnt the Christ why would the apostles be persecuted, tortured and killed for a lie?

But has Christs message about the afterlife been mixed up? Why did he talk about people being saved through faith in him as the Lord and Saviour.

I just want all of this mess in my life cleared up, I cant move on in my life doubting and worrying about the afterlife. Once I trust Jesus exists and the afterlife exists I can move forward and enjoy my life!

  Hi there again Jdee190,

    I suppose it will be actual experience which can help you most to figure out and trust the truth about Yeshua and the afterlife. 

  No one else can fully instill that trust and real knowingness in you.  Others can nudge you in the right direction etc, but not fully create that trust and knowingness. 

  I've had enough experience and guidance messages to convince me of the reality of the nonphysical, and enough of the former to convince me that some outer sources i've been drawn to, are largely correct about these as well.  The two "jibe" more than not.

Jdee said:
1. "Crossbow, as a Christian, do you think the afterlife will be different than what traditional Christianity envisions? After being on this website for a while I think so!

2. Also what do you make of the other religions who love God with all their heart but dont accept Jesus? Will they get to Heaven? I hope they do"

Hello Jdee. I didn't see your post and question yesterday when I posted.

1. If the afterlife was the same in every part, then many people would not like it, because people are different and like different things, and even God can't please all the people all the time. So the afterlife has different places, like Earth has different places. Jesus said his Father's house has many mansions, and he told his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them. And just like Earth, one can travel around and visit people in other places - with certain restrictions of course, just like Earth.

2. Everyone has an afterlife. There is an afterlife place for people of all religions and all beliefs, attitudes and preferences. I can leave the body and get about, so I have seen many places where people go when they die, and whatever religion or no religion, they are all looked after. Bare in mind that one man's heaven could be another man's hell because he would not like it. By the way, no one suffers hell forever. Hell in its truest sense is our own unhappiness that we make, and it only lasts as long as we keep making it. It will last eternally if we eternally keep doing bad things that harm others and ourselves because we will keep being regretful and causing ourself to pull our hair and gnash our teeth. Religions are progress systems for races and large groups. Each religion was designed to suite the group of people it was presented to. One religion can't suite everyone. Remember Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, and also told his disciples not to waste time teaching his method to the Samaritans and Gentiles but to go to the lost sheep of Israel. This was to direct his method towards those who would best establish and benefit from it. Beliefs are the drivers of people and their societies. Each religion has a method of teaching which includes a mechanism, a set of controls, an engine, a set throttle and gearing, and a speed of progress, and is custom made for the people it is presented to. It has inner and outer parts; a front and a back; a top and bottom. But all have an afterlife because immortality is in the soul, the religion is just the learning/progress system. The religions have to clash with each other. That is expected. Like Islam clashes with Judaism and Christianity. Islam clashes with everyone because it has a scriptural and traditional commitment to war, with ongoing kill commands sprinkled through its scriptures. But even those who murder for their religion still have a place in their heaven, although other people would not enjoy their heaven and prefer to stay in their own. Religions, like motorcars, can slide sideways and run off the road at times. Arabic history and Islam is a fascinating story. If anyone can get about out of body and has the interest, I encourage them to look into its history. But this is a digression.

By the way. The reason it is said that Jesus died for our sins is because he taught forgiveness, the dissolution of sin and all that forgiveness can do, which prior to him, forgiveness was only a vague concept. His teachings were resisted and he was killed for them. Thus he died for teaching the dissolution of sins. Even as he hung dying, he continued to teach by forgiving his persecutors.
It is not so much Jesus per se who is our saviour, but rather his message of love and forgiveness (the Spirit of Christ) that is our saviour. But it doesn't matter if people confuse the message with the messenger and think it is Jesus the man who is the saviour because when they think of Jesus they think of his example of love and forgiveness and thereby take on some of that virtue and start to live it. This is why we should be careful about making a distinction between Jesus and Christ in company with Christians who do not make it or who consider Jesus the man to be the saviour, because it is unnecessary to adjust their attitude and just confusing. Read the three creeds - they are the church's doctrinal/teaching foundations - they explain the Christian concept of the Trinity and the nature of Christ on a scale from most fundamental/material to most essential/abstract/mystical but the concept is not taught like that in church services, only kept basic, because with religion and spirituality it is best to keep it simple so that everyone gets it, but give them a strong foundation and take them to the threshold where individuals can move ahead as they wish. There is more knowledge in the church than many realise. I speak in fundamental terms when ministering to fundamental Christians, and in other terms as suitable when ministering to others. I can speak as a Jew to a Jew, a Hindu to a Hindu, a Muslim as a Muslim, because I see the inside essence of the religion but I speak it according to its outside presentation or inside essence according to the person's requirement. To connect with people we need to understand them and be understood by them. 
I better sign off or I'll go all day. I hope there is some things of interest to think about Jdee.

†bow             

So why do you have doubts Jdee?

You can identify and acknowledge the problem, so it is half defeated already. Such problems as ocd take themselves too seriously. Give it an amusing name. Learn to laugh good humorously at it, and it will wither before you. From there it will be easily managed, even ignored. 

Read up on adrenalin and cortisol, these are the so called fear and anxiety hormones/chemicals. Adrenalin is the acute one, cortisol is the milder but chronic one. They trickle out of the adrenal glands when we perceive or imagine a threat exists or is looming. Adrenalin when threat is immedieate; cortisol when the threat is percieved as looming or maybe. For practical management they can be considered much the same substance - they basically are really. The uncomfortable sensations they give you in the body's belly, throat, and elsewhere, are just physical sensations that mean your physical system is working as it should. Don't mistake these sensations for fear or anxiety as you have come to believe they are - they are not. They just mean you are ready. Do not shy away from any job or task that triggers these sensations, for doing so will train the chemicals to secrete earlier each time and your adrenal-cortisol secretion system will become hyperactive and your shying from tasks to minimise the sensations will steadily box in your life. What ever task gives you the sensations that you have assumed are anxiety/fear, providing it is a good and decent and/or ordinary task to do, ignore the sensations and march right up and do the task. With practice you will learn that these hormonal/chemical sensations are a comfort to you, not a discomfort. These sensations mean your body is well tuned and primed, and your mind is sharp, and you have much energy to use. The energy underlying these sensations is a potent driving energy that will serve you well when you have learnt to use it properly. At the moment you are shying from it because it feels what you have come to think is uncomfortable, and you are misinterpreting its promptings in the wrong direction. Remember, these hormones/chemicals are your friend; the sensations of them in your system means your body is working as it should. Learn to be comfortable with it, even thankful for it.   

Hello jdee, you have lots of responses here to think about. I, personally, don't like to 'label' my person as a 'religious term of your choice' because I believe it puts my spirituality in a box. It can be a way to separate as well as to include our fellow humans. But each to his/her own.

I believe it is important to know what you value, and to place those thoughts 'ahead of you'. What I mean is, picture the outcome you find most personally fulfilling. Move toward that. Bruce Moen suggests that your approach toward 'entities' (which can be thoughts) which disturb you can be to 'see it not there'. And, sometimes we don't actually know what we would like to have in 'its' place.

But, life is your teacher. You must live it and find what suits you as best you can. You can be many people before you 'die'.

To picture yourself, as you are, in a 'heaven' may be true. But would you recognize the you that you will be 20 years from today? You might recognize that person, but consider that person very different from the 'present you'.

In any case, from all that I have read and experienced, I believe you can create a place, right now, in your mind, which would be a 'safe place' for you to go. Then, just trust that. In the afterlife, no one can take you from that safe place without your permission. Ultimately, it is about self-love. Believe in yourself, and just let the rest go, that is, until you feel strong enough inside to handle some new adventures.

Just a few thoughts. Just disregard them if they are not helpful to you. Best to you.

jdee190 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2011 at 8:12pm:

jdee,

I was a religious studies professor for 12 years and am now a United Methodist pastor.  I just read your post.  I see that the thread has not really answered your question, yet it has led to an interesting New Age conversation.  Expand your question into all your related questions, and I will start a new thread devoted to your issues.  That way, this thread can continue in its unique direction too.

Don

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You have hit the nail right on the head! My friend never used to knw all the stuff until he was brainwashed into total fear. At only 18 years old he has started smoking to control the fear and anxiety.

BTW, the reason I ended up here and also nearly to atheism was because of this guy, but I already had an underlying problem of anxiety, ocd and hypochondriasis so it hit me worse. But it also helps me identify the real problem I have and address it, but I still worry too much!

Rob Bell is only the tip of the iceberg among evangelical leaders these days. Rick Warren was the keynote speaker at a recent national Muslim conference!  Even Billy Graham is widely being dismissed as a godless liberal sell-out by many Fundamantlsts.

Re: death, etc.   Robert Monroe was not a "religious" man by any means, and it seems that throughout his life he kept a healthy amount of skepticism even to his own experiences and perceptions. 

   But, we find some very interesting and seemingly "fantastical" accounts in his work having to do with the ability of humans to transcend the physical rule sets that most of us think we are always and completely bound to. 

   In two different accounts, Monroe met some humans from very, very long ago in time and in another account some humans from about 1500 years or so in the future from now. 

   Both of these far past and future groups of humans seemed unusual and had a lot of commonalities in various respects.  One, they had lived for a very long time in the same physical vehicle and two they had a complete mastery over their physical environment.   They could manifest physical "objects" out of seeming nothing.  They could change weather patterns with just thought and will. They had full telepathic communicative abilities. 

But, for these purposes, the emphasis is on the very long time of having lived.  It almost reminds me of some of the OT biblical accounts of individuals and even groups of humans living a very long time without the experience of physical death. 

Then, another Monroe account relates to this issue.  Monroe asked his I/there if he could meet the most mature (spiritually/consciousness wise) human living in his time-space reference.   He was led to meet a person whom he first thought of as "He/She". 

  Among the many unusual things Monroe learned about He/She, Monroe learned through complete telepathic communication that He/She though this person utilizes a seeming physical body, has lived one very long continuous lifetime which it seems Monroe just quickly spouted out in his excitement and surprise, "1800 years".   That figure, though not fully accurate, is suspiciously close to how old one Yeshua would be if the Gospels are correct about his "Resurrection" show. 

  Indeed, Monroe hints later on in the conversation that He/She seemed to be already well known about in some way, but not being religious himself (with little tolerance for religious, dogmatic Christianity for much of his life) he projected "but no one really believes you exist."  Also mentioned that he was occidental in origin, hence not Asiatic like we might expect this person to be some exotic Tibetan Monk or some such     Nope, just a simple Jew who filled himself up with love to the nth degree.  (well to be fair, Palestine sort of straddles the line between being occidental and oriental, but being primarily inhabited by peoples of caucasian descent is definitely more "occidental"). 

   Then, you have other sources which support these accounts, ones that came before Monroe and ones Monroe was not particularly interested in.   For example, Edgar Cayce's guidance said that Yeshua did "resurrect" a physical body fascimile which could interact with inphysicals in a physical like way, and yet not be bound by physical laws. 

  Then, Rosiland McKnight who was one of Bob's early explorers back in his lab, well her guidance also said that Yeshua (Jesus) could do some remarkable things and were doing these things before he was crucified.   They mention that he could so raise the vibrations of his physical body, as to dissapear from the physical perceptions of inphysicals he was near. 

  They called this moving into his spiritual body, and having mastery of the levels "below" (read slower vibratory) than the "spiritual body" (read, pure consciousness).  They also mentioned that the human belief and experience of aging was illusionary, and that if a person knew and lived reality enough, they could transcend this illusion.  Something very similar to what Cayce's guidance also said and outlined.

   Most of these sources are well respected in non religious, but nonphysically oriented circles and have verifications in connection with their info in some areas (Cayce's work A LOT).

   But, don't take their or my word for it.  Sincerely intend to hook up to the most spiritually aware, helpful, love attuned and expanded consciousnesses while feeling feelings of love and/or gratitude and ask them or your "higher self" if these are true or not. 

  I have, and have gotten answers, so i do know that these sources are not full of it when it comes to the seemingly "amazing" potential of humans who are fully matured in their consciousness.  Jesus, or Yeshua as i prefer, was just one who did this in record time, and if Cayce's work is to be considered, then it wasn't his only life of such mastery over matter and it's probable "rule sets". 

  I've also have been given various kinds of guidance that it is probable that i will do some of these things later on in this life.   This guidance has come from both within (dreams, meditation, etc), and from without (other sensitives). 

   So do i "believe" in this kind of stuff?  No, i know it's a reality, but i suppose i won't be 100 percent certain until i do some of these things myself.  But i'm about 99 percent certain now.

  It's limiting to project our dislike of dogmatic, religious Christianity onto Yeshua and put him in a box because of the former. 

  He was all about freeing us from the boxes we put ourselves in, and the main way to accomplish same is to choose love (and through experience and challenge). 

  One such box, one of the strongest and most persistant boxes out there, is the belief that a human needs to transition from the physical dimension into others.  If we truly understand that ALL of this, both physical and nonphysical is nothing more than just data and information with a seeming quality of vibration, and that all is completely connected and One, then one will understand that to phase into or be aware of any nonphysical dimension, does not require that one needs to completely "leave" this slow vibratory "physical" dimension. 

  Our bodies "die" for two main reasons.  One, we don't love and live reality enough, and two we expect to, we believe so, and so we do.    But as "He/She", Yeshua, those far past and further future humans, and others have shown or different nonphysical guidances have outlined, this isn't a necessity. 

  So, in reality, religious Christianity isn't too far off in it's claims about Jesus.  They are just off in making it seem like only he could and has done these kinds of things.  They are off in putting him on an unreachable pedestal.  And they are off in various other ways, but that's not germane to this conversation.



   

Crossbow, when you have these out of body experiences, can you actually visit the afterlife and see people there?

And are they definetely real and not some crazy brain trick?

crossbow wrote on Aug 4^th, 2011 at 10:13am:


Wow thats amazing, thank you.

Learning all this stuff has helped me, and also made the appearance of my dead grandad to my gran in spirit form more believable.

I still have my doubts, scientist Carl Sagan spoke out about religion and the afterlife and called it superstition.

But how can he say this when he has never experienced anything like OBEs, NDE's etc and what he knows about theology and religion will be very very little.

However are there not great scientists who have STUDIED the afterlife and now believe in it? Rather than just make low comments from the outside.

Hi Jdee,

You're doing a lot better now I see.

I can't really comment on the religious side of things but I have been lurking in the background and I have to say you have brought up an excellent topic here  . Thanks to you, Crossbow, Justin, Recoverer for their insights, interesting stuff indeed!

Anyway, Jdee take a look at this site by Victor Zammit, it is very interesting and has science involved too. There are also a lot of references to other scientists who believe there is an afterlife.

http://www.victorzammit.com

Andy

Quote:


Justin,

If you don't mind me asking; are you aware of any particulars of the life of the Gentile during that time?
Such as the personality type, social role/position, life highlights, relationship to others and to Jesus' following, ...that sort of thing?

I know these sorts of things can be obscured but I just wondered if you were aware of any particulars.

Thank you,

crossbow

recoverer wrote on Aug 5^th, 2011 at 2:33pm:


Of course he knew they would pay attention to him, even worship him, because its natural, and because many could do no other, and he made full use of them doing so, by ensuring his life was an accurate physical model and representation of his greater message. So that their worshipping "him" would ignite the virtue in them. So that those people with concrete minds who cannot grasp the concept of love and forgiveness in its abstract sense (formless & energetic sense) - for their concrete thinking can only create in thought what they can physically see and hear - can envisage and worship His person and personal life story and pray to Him the man. And because he made his life an accurate physical reflection of his message, by their focusing on their idea of "him" and his life, their minds and hearts could - via that idea - tune with and tap into the greater concept of the boundless love, which is the message he came to teach and demonstrate. The shape/form/structure of the man and his demonstrated life, when imagined, loved and worshiped, carries into the worshiper a seed of the quality of the great shapeless concept of unconditional love, which without an imagined container to give it shape and form and quality, could not be fathomed by someone unfamiliar with it. 
 
Recoverer, with due respect, you write like you think that because you have caught hold of the concept of "unconditional love" that therefore your level of understanding of the concept is all that others should need. But why do you put off those with less comprehensive ability than your own from comprehending Jesus' message in their way. Do you think that those with less ability than yourself to comprehend the wider concept should not be catered for?...their needs not met?...perhaps you don't care for them and think that if they don't get the concept then too bad for them?

So if you were in "His" sandals, how would you have taught your "unconditional love" to those who had no inkling of the concept; whose hearts had not yet known the feeling of imparting unconditional love; whose minds could not fathom formless abstract concepts but could only reproduce in thought what they had physically seen and heard; who could not fathom virtue as a shapeless force, but only as personified and demonstrated in human form and action? Or could not even fathom it in human form, but only in God form?...and not as internal God, but only as external God?  How would you have taught "unconditional love" to them?

Perhaps you would have just kept repeating the term "unconditional love" at them, and looking at them like you thought you were clever and they were silly for not understanding what the term means.

And what if by chance there were a few who were able to vaguely grasp the concept, despite you only speaking it like a parrot and not demonstrate it with your life, how would you throw those ones off? Perhaps you would then encode the concept in an acronym like PUL to make it extra tricky for them and that way you could speak about it with your friends and better keep it from those ones who might otherwise figure it out.   

Fortunately, Jesus knew how to teach masses of people. And he did not mind if they worshiped him, if that carried the message and idea of what love is into their minds and hearts. He was not so proud that he would stop people worshipping him as the embodiment of his message, as long as they got the message. He was the reverse of secretive, he taught on all communicative levels; his words, actions, and even the model of his life carried his message, so that even when people worshiped the messenger instead of the message, or confused and blended the two together, and even people who could not grasp the message at all but could only know and worship the messenger and his example, the message still got across and took seed because he built it into his person and into his example of living. 

Christ the spirit of love for Earth is happy to be communicated with directly, or via his Personification. And the Personification, Jesus, is happy for people to communicate directly to the Christ, or via Himself. Neither have hang-ups about it. Its all about what suits the individual.

But then, as the Christ said to one Christian: "Why speak to my personification when you can speak to me?"   

crossbow wrote on Aug 5^th, 2011 at 10:45am:


  Hi Crossbow,

  Yes, i am aware of a number of the particulars.  I've also met a few individuals that i've received info about us being connected to each other in that life.  (these were more closely personal connections though, family, lover type).   Oddly, some of those past patterns played out eerily similar to, but reversed, in this life. 

  What about yourself?

I'd like to add something that sort of relates to what I just wrote.

I have three friends I discuss spiritual subjects with (we do so verbally). None of us belongs to a spiritual group so we basically state our own beliefs and understandings rather than beliefs that come from somebody else.

One key thing that enables us to communicate in a harmonious way is that none of us feels compelled to get the other person to believe as we believe.  Yet, we are open to learn from each other.

If I was a member of a church where a particular way of thinking was followed, I doubt that such purposeful and harmonious communication could take place.

I believe it is possible that Jesus did not have it in mind that people should limit themselves by attaching to a particular belief system that is defined by the person (or people) who put themselves in charge.  My guess is that Jesus' approach was more like Bruce Moen's. Bruce recommends that people find out for themselves. How often do Christian leaders recommend that people find out for themselves through their own experiences? Doing this is quite a different thing than saying verse [] says this, so don't believe differently. 

Recoverer,

Re: "To sum up, I figure Jesus was wiser than I, so I doubt that he had it in mind for people to worship him."

Maybe he was wise enough to know that many would worship him, for they have little abstract conceptual ability with which to grasp his fuller and higher message,  and so he had it in mind to meet them on their level and be the same as his message, so that the effect would be the same for them, whether they worship the message or the messenger. And so the message gets across, either in abstract or concrete form, or anywhere on the spectrum in between, as suits the degree of refinement of the recipient's mind and heart.

Thank you.

Josh Langley wrote on Aug 6^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

Crossbow,
Why do you think you chose to live so many lives here, in so short a time? It seems that many spirits choose to spend long stretches in the non-physical realms before coming back here.  It looks like you set yourself a very arduous schedule.