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Berserk
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  The Father of Astral Projection
« on: Aug 11th, 2005, 8:28am »  Quote  Modify 

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I have almost finished reading one of the most fascinating books I've ever read on the afterlife:
Wilson Van Dusen's "The Presence of Other Worlds: The Psychological/ Spiritual Findings of Emanuel Swedenborg."  I am not a Swedenborgian and do not feel fully qualified to expound on his insights.  But I nevertheless hope my interaction with Van Dusen's presentation will be stimulating to some of you.  I will develop this thread very gradually with the aid of this series of topics.  As always, feel free to jump in. I only ask that you reserve your comments for the appropriate topic.

(1) Swedenborg: A Scientific Genius
(2) His Evolving Methodology 
(3) His Awesome Verifications
(4) The Nature of Heaven and Hell 
(5) The Principle of Correspondence that Unites All
the Worlds
(6) The Nature of the Self
(7) A Comparative Analysis: Hallucinations in
     Swedenborg and in Psychopathy 
(8) Existence Itself as Symbolic

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Berserk
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  Re: The Father of Astral Projection
« Reply #1 on: Aug 11th, 2005, 9:10am »  Quote  Modify 

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(1) SWEDENBORG: A SCIENTIFIC GENIUS

Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772 AD) spent the first part of his life absorbing the scientific knowledge of his era and wrote over 100 scientific works.  He also mastered a repertoire of technical trades.  His primary occupation was that of mining engineer and inspector of mines.  But he was a  ground-breaking thinker in physics, chemistry, mathematics, and astronomy For example, he is particulary famous his nebular hypothesis.   He also made major contributions in anatomy and the neurosciences.  For example, he was the first to discover the functions of the brain's cerebellum.  He recognized a special funtion of the pituitary gland two centuries before modern endocrinology.  He was a metallurgist and is credited with founding the science of crystallography.  He also directed a project that moved ships over 14 miles of mountains and valleys.  He designed stoves, an ear trumpet, pumps and fire extinguishers, and a flying machine.  The list goes on and on. 

At age 56 in the 1740s, he shifted his focus to the nature of the pysche or  soul.  ln 36 volumes he recorded and interpreted his dreams and, in the process, anticipated many modern psychoanalytic insights.  He quickly realized that anatomical and neurological would not be very helpful in this new quest.  His former scientific approach was inadequate for such elusive matters.  This realization catapulted him down the road to mysticism and he was soon to merit the title 'the father of astral projection."  That is my judgment, not the judgment of Swedenborg or his followers.
My next post will focus on his evolving methodology that honed his unique spiritual gift. 
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  Re: The Father of Astral Projection
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(2) SWEDENBORG'S EVOLVING METHODOLOGY

Without knowing it, ES engaged from childhood in a meditation akin to Yogic and Buddhist practices.  He would relax, close his eyes, and focus in with total concentration on a scientific problem.  At the same time, his breathing would nearly stop and his awareness of the outer world and even bodily sensation would diminish to the point of vanishing.  He whole existence would focus on the one issue he wanted to understand.

What began as an intensely intellectual form of meditation ultimately progressed to an exploration of his dreams, the hypnogogic state, and later, trances.  The hypnogogic sate is experienced twice a day as one goes into and out of sleep.  Few people have the discipline and focus to explore the spontaneous wellsprings of mind that bubble up from this state.  ES learned to converse with its symbolic inner processes.  Those who really explore this state can linger for hours watching scenes and hearing things said.  For some reason, some people are primarily visual during this state, and others, like myself, are primarily  auditory.

When I awaken, I often hear a whirring sound like a washing machine completing its cycle and also hallucinatory voices, both known and unknown.  I wonder if the whirring sound signals recent astral travel erased from my memory.  During his hypnogogic state, David Fontana often experienced a combination of waking paralysis and a sense of a menacing alien presence.  Upon further experimentation, he discovered that the alien presence was in fact a dim memory of his soul returning from a forgotten OBE state!

In the hypnogogic state, something is said or seen  before there is any possibility of grasping its meaning.  For example, in this state ES gains this insight: "As to pleasure, wealth, and rank, which I had pursued, I perceived that all was vanity and that he is the happier who is devoid of such things. ..I seemed to hear a hen cackling, as she does when she has laid an egg."  ES later realizes that chickens are not very bright.  Symbolically, his mind is warning him that his insight is nothing to be proud of and must be only the prelude to far more profound insights.

The sphere which most people rule within their minds is relatively small.  Unlike ES, the average person would find it very hard to hold one thought, image, or intention in mind for even one minute.  In the hypnogogic state, one can watch thoughts form and be spoken without one's behest.  Further, the inner processes think faster and more cleverly than the meditator and the symbolic language spoken may not even be understood.  By inspecting feelings, associations, and the situation being symbolized, it is possible to penetrate the symbol.   

For ES these inner states suggest the presence of other spiritual beings interacting with our lives.  Those who scoff at this suggestion have rarely shared ES's determination to  use the hypnogogic state as a springboard for more vivid waking trance states and ultimately for visits to the World of Spirits, the Hells, and the Heavens.  By contrast, we generally experience such inner states merely as pieces of the unconscious self bubbling to the surface.  ES's communal notion of of the earthly self would embrace both perspectives as valid!

SWEDENBORG'S DISCERNMENT OF THE GENUINENESS OF HIS PARANORMAL ENCOUNTERS

As his consciousness expands from dreams and hypnogogic states to waking trances, conversations with demons and angels, and visits to the afterlife territories, ES actively seeks out ways of validating his experiences.  In all these psychic states, he begins to experience the little-known phenomenon called photism or orbs of light.   The meditator seeking guidance finds a signal system to guide him.  ES sees an affirming flame.  He observes: "Such a flame appeared to me so often, and indeed, in different sizes in a diversity of color and splendor, that during some months when I was writing a certain work, hardly a day passed in which a flame did not appear as vividly as the flame of a household hearth."    Most people who experience orbs are puzzled by by their significance.  ES tested the validity of his flame and soon discovered that it was "a sign of approval."  He could, for example, correlate it with his scientific breakthroughs.  Both by its color and warmth, his flame symbolizes love and feeling.  During his expanded awareness, ES begins experiencing his guiding flame during his daytime trances and visions as well.

Too many modern astral adepts tend to accept the entities they encounter at face value without rigorously discerning their positive or negative ambience.  ES's passion to encounter the divine reinforces his discipline and resolve to test the spirits by sorting out their quality and usefulness.  He even experiences automatic writing.  He'd feel his hand being seized by lower-order spirits and forced to write things about biblical figures that he didn't even approve of.  But his most impressive verifications derive from evidence that he can truly contact the dead and gain from angels information that at times cannot be gleaned from the minds of incarnate humans.  This evidence will be discussed in my next planned post.

Don 
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Very interesting stuff, Berserk.  It makes me wonder why Robert Monroe didn't stumble onto his writings during his early experiences when he thought he was going nuts, and thought he was alone.

Just one question about your subject headings (as per Spooky2's recovery of your posting.)  Item #7 reads A Comparitive Analysis:  Hallucinations in Swedenborg and in Psychopathy?  Do you mean to say "psychosis"?  Two different things.

Thanks, Sheila

(4) ES's VERIFICATIONS OF HIS CONVERSATIONS
     WITH ANGELS

ES claims that everyone has both angels from Heaven and spirits from Hell with them all the time, normally two of each.  He applies the term "angel" to discarnate humans in Heaven as opposed to Hell and the intermediary realm he calls "The World of Spirits."  His practiced mastery of discernment allows him to distinguish angels from the deceptive hellbound spirits.  Lower-order spirits like to pretend that they can predict and even control the future, but they cannot.  Modern astral adepts have seldom penetrated the heavens, and so, are often deceived by hallucinatory encounters with lower-order spirits.  But the Lord, Heaven, and angels essentially transcend time.  So anyone in contact with them can potentially read the past, present, and future, and even verify their contacts with the dead.

At first sight, some of ES's clairvoyant revelations might be due to ESP gleaned from the minds of eyewitnesses.  Condider these 2 cases: (1) Chris Springer was a Swedish politician and a close friend of ES.  Springer had been a major player in the secret negotiations between Sweden and Prussia.  After ES's death, Springer revealed that ES had psychically gleaned detailed knowledge of these negotiations.  ES discerned such details as who was present, what money was offered, what Springer had done, and why he had done it.  (2) In the middle of a conversation at an Amsterdam party, ES lost his awareness of those around him and entered a deep trance.  When he recovered, his dismayed associates asked him what had happened, but he initially refused to say.  But after much coaxing, he soberly described how Emperor Peter III of Russia had just been strangled in a prison in Kopsha, Russia.  He advised partygoers to note the date and his description, so they could later verify it from newspaper accounts.  A few days later, the local papers confirmed his report.

Skeptics challenged his ability to receive such premonitions.  His sister had died without his knowing it.  When chided about this, he explained that he was emotionally distant from her at the time of her death and, in any case, had not asked his angels about her.  When he did ask his angels to reveal when someone would die, he received accurate clairvoyance.  Two episodes illustrate this:

(1) At a Stockholm gathering, ES was challenged by skeptics to a test: he was asked to identify who of those present would die first.  ES immediately entered a profound state of meditation.  After a while, he shared the angels' reply: "Olof Olofsohn will die tomorrow morning at 4;45 AM."  This confident prediction transformed the mood of those present to one of anxious expectation.  One of Olofsohn's friends went to his house the next morning to test the prediction.  En route, he met one of Olofsohn's servants who informed him that his master had just died from a fit of apoplexy.  The clock in his home had stopped at the very moment he had expired and the hand pointed to 4:45!

This episode reminds me of 3 deaths in the Long family.  Nick Long died suddenly from a heart attack while a young man.  His son, Nick, Jr., was later distraught over a failed marriage and hung himself while his mother, Eleanor, was attending a funeral at my church.  Eleanor herself was killed in a fiery car crash a year later.  Eleanor's death hit me very hard because she was always very kind to me.  A week prior to her death, she had a dream in which several deceased relatives visited her home.  Her late husband came downstairs and asked her, "Honey, do you want to dance?"  Eleanor would ordinarily never turn down her husband's offer to dance, but she sensed that dancing was a symbol for her imminent passing.  So she replied, "Oh no, I'm not ready yet!"  These 3 deaths in the Long family had one thing in common with Ofofsohn's death: the clock in teir living room stopped at the time of death for all 3 of the Longs! 

(2) ES's ability to receive accurate death premonitions from angels is dramatically corroborated by an exchange of letters with John Wesley, the founder of Methodism.  ES wrote Wesley an unexpected letter, saying, "I have been informed in the world of spirits that you have a strong desire to converse with me; I shall be happy to see you if you will favor me with a visit."  Wesley received the letter in an English drawing room just as he and his followers were preparing for an extended speaking tour.  Wesley told those present that he was indeed eager to meet ES, but had told no one about this.  He wrote ES that their meeting would have to be postponed for 6 months until the completion of his speaking tour.  ES wrote back, apologizing that he could not meet him at that time because he was to die on the 29th of the next month, which, of course, he did. 

My Dad's friend Helmut can attest that ES's premonition about the exact date of his passing is not unprecedented.  Helmut's Dad always said he would die on his 91st birthday.  When that day arrived, he had no obvious health problems and no one dared comment of the fateful date.  He had a good breakfast and cheerfully announced he was going to take a nap.  He passed away peacefully durng the nap just as he'd always predicted.   

ES receives angelic clairvoyance of 3 accidents or acts of Nature, none of which can satisfactorily be explained in terms of ESP tapping the minds of eyewitnesses.  (1) In ES's day the uncertainties of wind and weather made it impossible to predetermine how many days a long sailing trip might take.  Sea captains generally took his presence on a ship as a sign that the journey would be safe and swift.  ES claimed he never feared these journeys because he had angels with him.  Those angels demonstrated their presence in a conversation ES had with a Captain Dixon as they embarked on a trip from London to Stockholm.  ES accurately predicted that the ship would arrive in Stockholm at 2 PM in exactly a week.   

(2) On July 17, 1750, he and 15 others were guests of the prominent merchant William Castel in Gothenberg at his fine home on Canal St.  At 6 PM, ES suddenly turned pale.  When asked what was wrong, he described a fire burning out of control at that moment in distant Stockholm.  in principle, he moght have acquired this information by ESP gleaned from the minds of Stockholm's residents.  But the ESP explanation cannot satisfactorily account for his detailed knowledge of the fire's course.  He described where it had started and where it was burning, including the inceration of a friend's house and the fact that the fire burned itself out just before it arrived at ES's home.  The next day the governor summoned ES and sought and received his report on the fire which was confirmed in detail the following day.

(3) In 1770, ES attended a social event in his honor in Gothenberg.  he sat beside Bolander, the owner of extensive cloth-mills.  During dinner, ES abruptly turned to Bolander and sharply instructed him: "Sir, you had better go to your mills!"  Bolander was taken aback at his rudeness, but nevertheless left the table and hurried to his mills.  A large piece of cloth had just fallen near the furnace and had begun to burn.  He arrived just in time to prevent his property from being reduced to ashes.  When he returned, he thanked ES.  ES smiled and explained that he had spoken so abruptly because he had "seen" that the danger was imminent.

Don

(5) THREE INITIAL STATES AFTER DEATH

I take seriously what ES's astral explorations have revealed on this subject because of his many awesome verifications of his conversations with angels and other discarnate humans.  My source here is ES's classic book "Heaven and Hell" (= HH) from which I will now quote extensively:

"When we die, we are still alive and just as human as ever.  To convince me of this, [the Lord] has allowed me to talk with almost all the people I have ever met during their physical lives, with some for a few hours, with some for weeks and months, and some for years.  This was primarily so that I could be convinced and bear witness (437)."

"There are three states that we pass through after death before we arrive at either heaven or hell.  The first state is one of more outward concerns.  The second is one of more inward concerns, and the third is one of preparation.  We go through all three states in the world of spirits.  Some people do not go through these states, but are either raised into heaven or cast into hell immediately after their death (HH 491)." 

The "world of spirits" is a transitional state between the heavens and hells and seems to be the equivalent of Focus 25 and 26 in the Monroe-Moen nomenclature.  The highest level of the world of spirits seems to be the equivalent of Focus 27.  In biblical terms, the world of spirits embraces Hades (not to be confused with Hell) in its lower planes and Paradise, an old Persian term for "park", in its upper planes. 

(1) OUR FIRST STATE AFTER DEATH

"We use the outward aspects of our spirit to adapt our bodies in the world--especially our faces, our speech, and behavior--to our interactions with other people.  The more inward aspects of our spirit are the ones proper to our intentions and consequent thought, which rarely show in faces, speech, and behavior.  We are trained from infancy to present ourselves as friendly, benevolent, and honest, and to conceal the thoughts of our own intentions.  As a result, of this habitual behavior, we scarely know our inner natures and pay no attention to them (HH 492)."

"Our first state after death is like our state in the world, since we are then similarly involved in outward concerns. We have similar faces, voices, and character; we lead similar moral and civic lives.  That is why it still seems to us as though we were in this world unless we notice things that are out of the ordinary (HH 493)."

Most NDEs are marvelous experiences.  But ES chillingly insists that the initial postmortem state is normally wonderful even for people who will ultimately find their way to a hell.  ES's mention of their trips to gorgeous gardens and parks in the first state recalls descriptions of Focus 27:

"Their friends...take them around to various places, into the company of different people.  They go to different cities, to gardens and parks, often to gorgeous ones because things like that appeal to the outward concerns they are involved in.  Many of them think they will make it into heaven because they led moral and civic lives in the world, not reflecting that both good and evil people lead similar outward lives (HH 495)."

ES adds that "the first state after death...rarely lasts more than a year for anyone (HH 498)."   This fits neatly with modern research on contacts received by the recently bereaved from deceased loved ones.  One study indicated that 50% of Americans and 48% of the British report convincing contacts with their deceased loved ones within the first year since their death.  After that, the number of such contacts dramatically dwindles. Making such contacts is much harder for those who have moved on from the world of spirits to a heaven or a hell.

(2) OUR SECOND STATE AFTER DEATH

"Our second state after death is called a state of our deeper interests because then we are given access to the deeper reaches of our minds, or of our intentions and thoughts, while the more outward interests that engaged us in the first state become dormant (HH 499)."  "We as spirits are brought...into the state of those deeper intentions and consequent thoughts we engaged in when we were left to ourselves in the world and our thinking was free and unfettered (502)."

At this stage we shed aspects of self that were shaped by social expectations, peer pressure, and the need to present an acceptable presenting self that can mask our inner self.  As a result, "people who were inwardly devoted to the good...then behave..more wisely than when they were living in the world...In contrast, people who were focused on evil...then behave more insanely then when they were in the world (HH 505)."  It now becomes impossible to act one way and inwardly be another.  The person pauses at this threshold world long enough to become one with her own nature. 

"Once people like this are in the second state, they are let back into the state of their more outward concerns for brief periods of time.  They then retain a memory of how they behaved when they were in the state of their more inward concerns.  Some of them are embarrassed and admit they were insane.  Some of them are not embarrassed at all.  Some of them resent the fact that they are not allowed to be in the state of their more outward concerns all the time, but they are shown what they would be like if they were continually in this state.  They would constantly be trying to do the same things covertly, misleading people of simple heart and faith with simulations of goodness, honesty, and fairness.  They would destroy themselves completely because eventually their outer natures would be ablaze with the same fire as their inner natures (HH  506)."

"The things they [evil people] had done and said in secret are now made public, too, because now,  since outward factors are not constraining them, they say the same things openly, and they keep trying to the same things without any fear for the reputations they had in the world...They [visually] look to angels and good spirits like the [evil] people they really are (HH 507)."

(3) OUR THIRD STATE AFTER DEATH

Our third state after death is one of instruction.  This state is for people who are entering heaven and becoming angels and not for people who are entering hell, because the latter cannot be taught
(HH 512)."  Their close-mindedness prevents them from sensing the vast heavenly world beyond the world of spirits.  "As a result, their second state... ends in their turning straight toward...the hellish community that is engaged in a love like their own."  The general intention of the hells is to ignore God and vault the interests of self above all others. 

Heaven is not just reserved for Christians.  On the one hand, ES casually mentions bishops he has encountered in hell.  On the other hand, humble and teachable agnostics who have lived the equivalent of a loving Christian life will then be "taught things like that God exists, that heaven and hell exist, that there is a life after death, that God is to be loved above all, and our neighbor as ourselves, and that we are to believe what is said in the Word because the Word is divine (HH 512)." 

 

(7a) THE CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN SPACE OR
       DISTANCE AND PSYCHOLOGICAL REALITIES

This is the first in a series of posts on ES's discovery of how the principle of correspondence determines the structure of spiritual reality.  ES learns that there is no space in heaven.  What corresponds to distance are the feelings we have for each other.  To quote ES's "Heaven and Hell:" 

"People who are nearby are the ones in a similar state and the ones who are far away are in dissimilar states.  This is why space in heaven is nothing but the outward states that correspond to the inner ones.  This is the only reason why the heavens are differentiated from each other; as are the communities in each heaven and the individuals in each community. It is also why the hells are completely separate from the heavens.  They are in an opposite state."

"This is also why in the spiritual world one individual is present to another only if that presence is intensely desired.  This is because one person sees another in thought in this way and identifies with that individual's state.  Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance.  Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is in their town, their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, tbey go there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not.  The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path.  We can illustrate this by our own thoughts. . .for whatever we focus on intently in our thought is seemingly present (HH #193-96)."

This psychological equivalence to earthly spacial relationships among heavenly communities raises interesting questions.   Most of us have multi-faceted loves and tastes.  Assume for the sake of argument that I wind up in heaven.  I enjoy the company of men who make me laugh, men who love sports, and men who stimuate me intellectually.  I enjoy the company of women who have the gift of empathy, women who charm me, and women who balance me because they are very different from me, etc.    Let us assume that people of each type enjoy my company equally and are equally evolved in their spirituality.  How will the "geography" of these personality types be worked out?  What combination of strengths, interests, and quirks would bring my "type" together into a heavenly community?  Would I be with comedians who make me laugh, with men who stimulate me intellectually, with women who charm me, but are very different from me, etc.?  How can love be quantified?  Does God have some hierarchy of values that elevates some loving personality types to a higher level than others?  If so, what are they?  Perhaps, it is simply a matter of the purity and frequency of a soul's vibration.  So many questions, so few answers!

Don   

Roger,

I appreciate your humility in passing yourself off as a "newbie."     Buddhism stresses the importance of seeking enlightenment with a beginner's mind.  Of course you are practically a founding member of this site!  In any case, it's good to see you back.

Yes, ES discouraged others from trying to satisfy their curiosity through astral exploration.  He learned the hard way that the lower astral is a realm of illusion and deceptive spirits.  He devoted much time and meditative practice to honing his skill in discerning the difference between spirits from higher and lower vibrations.   Even so, he was once possessed by an evil spirit and sometimes experienced attacks from the lower planes during normal consciousness.  Some here would protest that Bruce's method is safe and that they have never encountered destructive "negs."  In my view, their safety is best explained by the simple fact that Bruce's method (focused imagination) often fails to propel the wannabe astral adept beyond mere imagination.  Robert Bruce has recently written a book about the spiritual dangers of astral exploration and the need to learn ways of protecting oneself during OBEs. 


ES explains in detail why he dismisses the reality of reincarnation of the "I".   The question is whether he substitutes an alternative perspective that roughly corresponds with eastern religious views of "nonegoic" reincarnation.  His alternative seems to be tied in with his views on physical and spiritual evolution, which in turn builds on his insights into the role of correspondences in creation's fabric.

To give you my best answer, I first need to plan another post on correspondences, a post on ES's anticipation of evolutionary theory a century before Darwin, and a post on how ES fills in the logical gaps created by a purely materialistic view of evolution.   I have just E-mailed Howard Storm about a possible contradiction between his NDE and ES.  I'd like to see if he replies and then incorporate his response into my responses to you.
So please be patient.  I want to give you my best answer and I am currently rethinking these issues.

Don

 

EVOLUTI0N AND CORRESPONDENCE

ES discovers that in both the spiritual and natural worlds each person, animal, plant, and mineral is encompassed by its spiritual replica, an energy sphere which continually emanates from it.  ""Thus the natural world derives from the spiritual, and the spiritual from the Divine (DLW 283)."  This insight is independently confirmed by channeled material from deceased Oxford professor F. W. Myers.  Myers confirms the truth of the widely espoused "as above, so below" principle.  Myers reveals that dinosaurs existed in the spirit world before they became physical and that their prior existence as spirits was essential to their emergence on Earth.    If ES  had known about dinosaurs, he would no doubt agree.  He reports: 

"This whole natural world is responsive to the spiritual world--the natural not just in general but in detail.   So whatever arises in the natural world is called `something that corresponds'.  It must be realized that the natural world arises  from and is sustained in beng by the spiritual world exactly the way an effect relates to an efficient cause (HH 89)."

"Now because every single thing remains in being from the Divine,...and every single thing from that source is inevitably a representative of the real thing by means of which it has come into being, the whole visible universe is therefore nothing else than a theatre that is representative of the Lord's kingdom.  And this in turn is a theatre representative of the Lord Himself (AC 483)," 

So ES does not simply believe that God spoke and "Poof!" life appeared.  For ES, Nature provides a mechanism whereby the Lord's life reaches down to ultimates [evolved states] and returns to Himself through higher and higher "uses" (DLW 180, 316).  Both evolution and some form of reincarnation are at least consistent with this scheme of things. 

ES reveres biblical truth but insists that the Genesis creation story cannot be taken literally.  He precedes Darwin by almost a century and inevitably makes mistakes in his speculations about the development of life forms.  But he anticipates the general drift of modern evolutionary theory.  He recognizes the tiny lichen on a rock as a  developmental prelude to emerging forests.  He believes that each order of plants gives birth to a corresponding order of animals (WLG 30).  He traces the modern human species back to a primordial prehuman stage (SD 3390). 

In my view, he anticipates and corrects a flaw in the evolutionary principle of natural selection.  Natural selection assumes that chance variations create genetic advantages that improve the chances of survival.  ES accepts the role of randomness in creation, but insists that the Lord controls chance or probabiliity distributions (AC 5508).  His anticipation of evolutionary theory a century before Darwin is yet another confirmation of the validity of his gift of astral projection.

In my next planned post, I will discuss how his views on the origin and development of life forms find confirmation in modern scientific experiments.

Don

Hi Don.I have read all about swedendorg and his vissits to the spirit world.I have also read that there are things that god does not want us to know.and one of those things is reincarnation.There is a reason for this.If people knew that reincarnation is a fact,There would be more people killing themselfs to try and get a better life next time around.George

Don-

One thing for sure, we'll never find consistency in our research of the afterlife.  Even material supposedly channelled from highly evolved entities can be totally contradictory much less inconsistent.

I have concluded that it's really a fruitless enterprise, especially if the objective is to achieve some sort of conclusive answer as to what lies in store for us after death.

Speaking just for myself, I have spent way too many years reading everything I can get my hands on if it promises insight on the afterlife.  And the more I read, the more confused I get.  Sometimes I get to the point where I just throw up my hands and tune out of the whole deal.

One thing that ES says, however, has really hit home with me.  Yes, we can have faith in God and yes, we can have love.  BUT unless we tie those things to good works while here on earth, they are empty and useless.

What difference does it make if we read all the available literature on the afterlife, and are up to speed on the "insights" of the latest new age guru if we aren't helping others in the best way we can?  Even if we have compassion for those among us who need a helping hand but we don't respond, that compassion is nothing more than an empty feeling.

Bruce says that retrievals are just "training wheels" for the further exploration of the afterlife.  That's fine as far as it goes, but I think it misses a larger point.  Even if that exploration provides legitimate information (and I'm skeptical of that), it is still lacking an important, maybe essential, ingredient, if it doesn't result in us helping our fellow human beings.

In fact, I'll go one step further and say that a life devoted to helping others is far more important even if we have no clue whatsoever what lies beyond this earthly life.

We can engage in endless debate and arguments on this board but it will never solve the mystery of the afterlife, so why not do something in the here and now that will be far more rewarding both to us and to those we help.

A SWEDENBORGIAN CRITIQUE OF THE
NEW AGE CONCEPT OF THE GROUP SOUL

In reply #18 I outline the grounds of ES's rejection of reincarnation.  New Age reincarnation is often associated with the concept of a soul Disk or group soul comprised of many manifestations of one's soul throughout history.  ES would view this as a perversion of what actually happens:

"Kindred souls gravitate towards each other spontaneously...for with each other they feel as though they are with their own family (HH 44),"  

"There was a kind of angelic face that appeared to me, and this varied according to the qualities of affections...that were characteristic of the individuals in a particular community.  These variations lasted quite a while, and through it all I noticed that the same general face remained constant as a basis, with everything else being simply derivations and elaborations from it.  So there was shown me through this face the affections of the whole community...Not many individuals leave their own community to go to another because leaving their community is like leaving themselves or their life...(HH 47, 49)."  

"Sometimes a whole angelic community appears as a single entity in the form of an angel, a sight that the Lord has allowed me to see. . .Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are nothing but angelic communities that are given these names because of their functions (HH 52)."  

Similary, in classical channeling, the group soul is not like the Monroe/Moen soul Disk composed of multiple selves of the same soul unit.  Rather, the group soul is composed of originally distinct kindred souls with the same purpose.  Yet this channeled conception might easily be confused with the soul Disk concept.  For example, consider this quote form Paul Beard, "Living On," p. 135:

"The group as a whole is in a real sense a soul also, a group soul, and [the discarnate person] is in very truth part of this soul.  The bond, the common purpose, will not all be seen in a flash....[but] will be carried out gradually, until the various parts are gathered together and made a whole."  

This alternative understanding may be the key to solving a significant contradiction between Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe.  Moen claims to be part of the same soul Disk as Monroe.  But Monroe is astrally informed that he has only one parallel incarnation--a female one.  He is also told that "she would seem like a long-lost sister (UJ 174)."  Moen reports no such intimacy in his earthly encounter with Monroe.  Perhaps, Moen, Monroe, and even this unknown female are distinct and separate souls destined to participate in a group soul in this Swedenborgian sense.  If so, there is no such thing as retrieving portions of one's self.

The group soul in the Swedenborgian sense gets rid of the the troubling notion of parallel incarnations from a timeless astral realm.  
Consider the contradictory nature of Seth's perspective on the timeless interval between lives.  In "Eternal Validity of the Soul" Seth says, "There is no time schedule, and yet it is very unusual for an individual to wait for anything over 3 centuries between lives, for this makes the orientation very difficult, and the emotional ties with the earth have become weak."  But Seth assumes that time is irrelevant for entities between lives.  The earth ties can only become gradually weakened if there is in fact a passage of time!  A real contradiction!

Don

George,

Thanks for responding again.  In your last post you allude to an important issue--the question of whether some truths are withheld from us for our own good.  St. Paul admits that during his trip to Paradise he is told truths that he is not permitted to share (2 Corinthians 12:4).  Howard Storm tells me that his book "My Descent into Death" only describes the tip of the iceberg of his NDE revelations.  In her book, "Embraced by the Light," Betty Eadie confesses that many truths were erased from her memory when she returned to waking consciousness from her NDE.  But she adds this:  she learns in her NDE that, though the soul preexists before birth,  there is no reincarnation. 

Swedenborg originally experiences and learns about past life memories.  Only when he explores heaven and converses with angels does he learn that these are merely memories from distinct spirits with whom one is connected.  Even on earth it is well known that when someone is possessed by a discarnate human, that human's memories merge with one's own.   So this is far from "just ES's  opinion."  Besides, his verifcations are far, far superior to those of any modern astral adepts. 

I am still exploring issues associated with reincarnation.  But Swedenborg's verifications have earned him the right to be taken more seriously than modern adepts. 

Don

George,

Now you are raising the question that has fueled my spiritual quest more than any other since my teenage years.  Yes, the Bible teaches that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.  I have posted in this issue extensively in the past and should perhaps post on this again.  If we remain in Hell, then that is because we refuse to cast our gaze in a godward and more loving direction, not because God has rendered the final verdict on our lives.    The Bible also implies that soul retrievals are both possible and essential.  In this respect, Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe agree with Scripture.  Atheist Howard Storm is told the same thing by Jesus during his NDE. 

If reincarnation of the ego turns out to be a false doctrine, it nevertheless expresses the important truth that this life is not the end of our educational and evolutionary potential.  The heavenly planes perform the purification role that reincarnatiionists have often reserved for Earth.  As positive as I am about ES, I have so far not discovered where he directly addresses the possibility of retrievals from hell.  In my view, this is the greatest weakness in his otherwise unparalleled odyssey of astral discovery.

Don

that is where I'm at in my understanding as well Mairlyn, that the personality is the new consciousness born here, but that the personality is not the totality of the being itself, but like a probe, to gather new experiences and bring those gifts back into the entire disc/whole, adding to the pot, as it were, or what is called the harvesting of loosh  (god, I wish we had another reference point).
I wish to address to the question of reincarnation, that it can be seen to be for some both true and false. that when bleed thrus of various lives do come to the mind with detail and finesse, that these are meaningful to observe, in that these lives shown are not the same person as depicted in the images..these can be seen as experiences which happened to your twin sister or brother, a being so close to you, that you feel what they feel, you know them as well as yourself, just as my own twins, when I was spanking one (just a swat on the butt, ok?) the other twin at once hollared from another room of the house! I felt that! she said. they are like one person within a level of observation, yet with different personalities to express. they are joys to watch and learn by. this is perhaps a clue what these other lives may be like in terms of shared experiences.

from a religious viewpoint and I am not religious (this life, this personality)  we can take this topic and compare it to the bible where one person is sent into life with 2 talents, another with 3 talents, or gifts, and sometimes these talents in a spiritual sense are not used and so there cannot be much advancement unless whatever your talent is, that it is expressed for this is fulfilling to find your intentions here, what brings you pleasure to perform.

what this means to me personally is sometimes we can deny, or never find out what our talent is exactly because of whatever...not enough study, being lazy, or perceiving erroneously that there are obstackles in your way to do what u came here to do, maybe becoming addicted to whatever, we are good at having excuses why we didn't do the thing we love to do, whatever that is.
an example is: on my journey here I was a lowly housecleaner to my incorrect perception. but on a spiritual level I was in the right place. because I needed to understand about what good service was to another, no matter how much I knew I did not come to this planet to clean someone elses toilet...lol. by learning to love my job, by loving my clients, I was able to graduate from the profession..which by the way, it's an excellent spiritual position if approached to do good work in it. so maybe it doens't matter what position you hold in life, it only matters how well you do your job in order so that you can move to something more challenging and perhaps see your way clear to utilize what your special talent is.
my summation is one is never judged in the afterlife  and slotted into a prison for what you did or didn't do, but you judge yourself according to whether you did the best you could, and you examine the reason why you did as you did. it is the reason why you might have killed someone but you are not punished for the act itself, you are punished only if you "enjoyed" killing someone and for that intention of deriving satisfaction from such an act. a soldier has never been punished for killing in the afterlife review. he had a license to kill. but yes, I agree, that together we help each other evolve and that there should be here or there, and even in the most degrading BST's imaginable, some kind of opportunity to assist and retrieve these, just as there exists here on this side, counselors and teachers who attempt same and some are very successful to help others, thereby helping themselves evolve. I didn't mean to ramble. sorry. I'm sure glad this board is here.
love, alysia  
not finished yet. lol.  there are opportunities to grow, assistance is always offered here or there. judgment is aided by nuetral unbiased guides who assist the life review, who offer suggestions but not coersion for the thing of choosing one expression over another is important; on the other side you are either choosing to honor life or expressing you choose death. those who refused to be retrieved to life may change their minds down the road. if they wish to remain within a bst area to experience whatever their diviation is, their addiction, there is always another guide or being who can know how to pull them away from that. on the other hand, they may choose to remain in their bst from our perception of linear time, a very long time and not be wishing to join their disc to cooperate and continue whatever discs do within evolvement, winking out as it were....they say a leopard will not change it's spots, but spiritually speaking I am of the opinion that the power of foregiveness is the same power of PUL to allow the leapard to change it's spots.

I never thought I'd end up quoting something from ACIM, but on the subject of reincarnation, I think the author (whoever it is) has it absolutely bang-on.

Namely, if believing in reincarnation helps a person in his or her overall spiritual enlightenment, fine.  If it somehow has a negative affect, then let it go.  It's really not relevant.

It's obvious that no one really knows one way or the other.  We can quote from various books we have read (ie probes gathering loosh...whatever the heck that means) or we can submit our own theories. 

Either way, the fact remains that it is essentially irrelevant.  We can spend time discussing it until our computers crash or until we end up in a nursing home wearing a bib.  The result will be the same, we simply will not know. 

It may be entertaining to toss different scenarios around but it's not going to make us any more enlightened in terms of the big picture as to why we are here and what awaits us after death.

Roger and Alysia I agree! 

What matters more than anything is that we each have the ability to have our own experiences and draw from them whatever is meaningful to us...individually.  What we each experience and then believe, or believe and then experience is our own personal reality that has meaning to ourselves.  We will all have our own enlightening moments that make us grow, and they don't have to be the same for everyone in order to be true or real.

Don-

You've summed up well the reasons why a belief in reincarnation can be toxic.

Of course if all time is really One Time, then reincarnation by definition is not possible since it implies a sequence of births.

Re. the answer Storm got when he asked which religion is the best, it doesn't surprise me as to what he was told.  Actually, I would expect that even spiritually enlightened folks in the here and now would answer much the same way.  So that reply doesn't really convince me it was Jesus...although again, I'm certainly not ruling that possibility out.

The thing is, there are a lot of bogus Jesus' floating around these days.  ACIM started the ball rolling, but when you do some research, you find that there are other Jesus channellings which, like ACIM, sound authentic at least on a superficial basis especially to those who don't have the kind of scriptural background necessary to identify the obvious inconsistencies.

R
ps- hey maybe reincarnation really is possible!  After all, I've been on this website since almost Day One, and now I see I'm a Newbie.  Will wonders never cease.

pps- I keep hoping Bruce will complete the development of his afterlife communication device (ADC).  Once that is in general circulation, and we can dial up Aunt Gladys or Uncle Fred, then we should be able to get the answers we all want so much.

Don-

I appreciate your summarization.  Unfortunately I didn't bring Storm's book with me.  The quotes from Storm's Jesus are compelling.

In re-reading those quotes, I usually start from the premise that the quote might be from some other source as opposed to the claimed source (i.e. Jesus).  And then I try to figure out what agenda the source might have if in fact the source is an imposter. 

In this case however, I come up blank.  It genuinely seems authentic.  I can't come up with any agenda other than one intended to re-establish man's relationship with God.  Unlike ACIM's Jesus, we aren't continually told that regardless of what horrible acts a person might commit, he or she is totally guiltless.  In other words, there is never any accountability for anything we might do.

If that's true, why bother with the Life Review, which seems to be a common element in NDEs and is mentioned in various other afterlife literature.  Clearly the LR is a teaching tool which shows us how our words and deeds affected others by using a very powerful technique.....we literally feel the emotions, the hurt and pain we have caused in others via our thoughtlessness.  We also feel the joy and comfort we have brought to others.

That's just one example.  ACIM also trashes this physical world, and makes it clear it is nothing but illusion and misrepresentation and has no value whatsoever.  This also flies in the face of other material which says that earth is a school, and the reason earth can be so stressful and sometimes tragic, is because it's a tough school that teaches tough lessons.  So in other words, earth has a purpose.

Ok I don't want this thread to go off in an ACIM direction, that's for another thread if someone wants to do it.  It's just that Storm's Jesus makes a great deal of sense and, forgive the cliche, resonates.  Point #5 especially.  A new ager would say we create our own reality and in this sense I think that's about right.

Having said all of this, my question to you is this:  If Storm's Jesus is the real Jesus, why do you suppose He chose Storm to receive all of this sacred information?  Storm is no St. Peter, no church or religion will be established as a result.  And of course it's not about organized religion anyway. 

Storm's book hasn't really made that much of a splash except maybe in a small circle.  Wouldn't you suppose Jesus would have wanted his Words to be as widespread as possible?  I just don't see that happening.

Other than the quotes from Jesus, what other lessons do we learn from Storm's experience that would directly affect how we live our life?  Storm himself became a minister, quitting his other job to do so. 

To me, the most important lesson I learned was not from Storm but from ES.  Not really a lesson, just a reinforcement of something I've intuitively felt for a long time.  Namely, love is important.  Faith is important.  But these things have to be linked to activity.  Activity that is directed to those who need our help.  Activity that is done in the name of the love of God is considered to be absolutely essential by ES.  What did Storm's book have to say in this regard?

Did you learn any lesson from Storm's book?  Have you changed any behavior as a result?  Again, I wish I had his book and all of my typed notes, it would help me better in framing this question.

R

Hi everyone! Don, thanks for the invite over here since I've been away for a few months. So much to read and I know that I won't be able to hit every point. If I gloss over something that you want to focus on, please let me know and I'll do my best to reply.

To George - you might find these links written by Swedenborgians to be helpful in reflecting upon reincarnation.

How Good Do We Have to Be? by Robert McCloskey: http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/How%20Good.htm

Rebirth and Reincarnation by Charles Hall (edited by Lee Woofenden): http://www.leewoof.net/ministry/misc/rebirth_and_reincarnation.html

Reincarnation by John Odhner:  http://members.aol.com/johnodhner/reincarnation.html

Divine Reincarnation: http://www.swedenborgmovement.org/leaflets/reincarnation.html

Reincarnation?http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/rein.html

I totally agree with Roger that to believe in reincarnation is not so bad if it's doing a person good to believe in it. I also agree with Don that reincarnation can be a toxic philosophy; I've seen how it can attack a person in grief and the results can be horrendous both emotionally and spiritually.

As I understand it, the religions that reincarnation flourished (Hinduism and Buddhism) originally taught one eternal life. It wasn't until at least 600-1000 years after these 2 respective religions were founded that the belief in reincarnation surfaced.

Don has shared about the correspondence between the spiritual world and the natural world that ES wrote about. This correspondence exists with everything in our natural world. Mankind has largely forgotten the correspondence but ES wrote that God was revealing it once again. This correspondence affects us whether or not we are aware of it. For example, the number 12 which according to ES symbolized (corresponded to) all things of truth and good which can be developed in our lives. How do we know that is a true correspondence or not? By reflecting upon these things: 12 sons of Jacob, 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 disciples of Jesus, the 12 gates to the New Jerusalem as mentioned in Revelation, the 12 fruits of the Tree of Life as mentioned in Revelation 22 (many more examples). That this correspondence carries through into our secular lives without our awareness is evident by 12 months to a year; 12 hours to a day; 12 hours to a night; 12 signs of the Zodiac; 12 persons on a jury; 12 Step Recovery groups, etc.

Correspondences depend on the connotation of the passage or experience. As Don wrote, ES' insight was recognized by him to be not so enlightening as he first thought because a chicken is not so smart. Yet, even the lowly hen has good spiritual correspondence as evident by what Jesus said in Luke 13:34, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me."

There is the correspondence of the One God and with our one life. It is interesting to note that Hindiusm now teaches many gods and many earthly lives. In its inception, Hinduism focused on the One God and an individual's one earthly life.

Roger, you mentioned that in ES writings, you are reminded that what is important to actually live a life of charity and I so agree. That's the #1 important thing - without a doubt or question in my mind and it's absolutely what ES stressed. Still, ES wrote much about the afterlife and he wrote that it was because God wanted us to know about the other side. As ES mentioned, if we were to travel to another country, we'd spend some time researching the customs and language of that country; how much more true of the country of our eternal lives! There's the very real and practical benefit of knowing about the Other Side - it can be a profound influence on healing grief from losing a loved one to death.

ES wrote that the Golden Rule is found in every religion and by putting the Golden Rule into action into our lives, we thus will gain Heaven regardless of our religion or non-religion.

http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/GoldenRule.htm

Don, I think you mentioned that ES didn't speak to Jesus. ES had at least 2 visions of the Lord Jesus of which I know. These visions were immediately before ES abandoned his scientific work and because of these visions, ES believed he was called by God to experience the other side and to write books so that the world could be informed.

Immediately prior to the time of ES abandoning his scientific career, he was troubled and very much in spiritual torment as to where God was leading him. The two visions of Christ directed ES' path and are recalled by ES in his Dream Diary. I will copy part of one vision here (Dream Diary #50-54):

"... at ten o'clock, I went to bed and felt a little better. After half an hour, I heard some din under my head, and then I thought that the tempter left. Immediately a shiver came over me, starting from the head and spreading throughout the body, with some rumbling, coming in waves, and I realized that something holy had befallen me. Whereupon I went to sleep, and about twelve o'clock, or perhaps it was one or two in the morning, such a strong shivering seized me, from my head to my feet, as a thunder produced by several clouds colliding, shaking me beyond description and prostrating me. And when I was prostrated in this way, I was clearly awake and saw how I was overthrown. I wondered what this was supposed to mean, and I spoke as if awake but found that the words were put into my mouth. I said, 'Oh, thou almighty Jesus Christ, who of thy great mercy deigns to come to so great a sinner, make me worthy of this grace!' and I clasped my hands and prayed. Then a hand emerged, which pressed my hands firmly. In a little while, I continued my prayer, saying, "Thou hast promised to receive in grace all sinners; thou canst not otherwise than keep they word!" In the same moment, I was sitting in his bosom and beheld him face to face, a countenance of a holy mien. All was such that I cannot describe. He was smiling at me, and I was convinced that he looked like this when he was alive. He spoke to me and asked if I have a health certificate; and to this I replied, "Lord, thou knowest better than I." He said, "Well then, do!" -- that is, as I inwardly grasped this, "Do love me" or "Do as promised." God give me grace thereto! I found it beyond my powers and woke up shuddering."

ES asserted in many passages and in priviate correspondence that it was the Lord alone who taught him as he was in the spiritual realms accompanied by angels.

Speaking of Creation - ES did write that God's Creation was an "unfolding" process that continually occurs - a never ending creation. And he was the first individual to write that the Bible story of Genesis could not possibly be literal. He saw the correspondence of the Genesis story to that of our spiritual development. I will outline the spiritual correspondence of the Biblical story of Creation in a post later tonight.

As far as ES not knowing about dinosaurs, I wouldn't be surprised if he did know about them. I vaguely remember one passage where he mentioned that mankind had existed many thousands upon thousands of years - more than we could know and also that these ancient people did not walk upright on 2 feet as we do... interesting stuff to be written in 1757.

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

"There's the very real and practical benefit of knowing about the Other Side - it can be a profound influence on healing grief from losing a loved one to death. "

Hi Judy-

Yes, I think that the most essential message ES has for us is that love and faith are important, but they must be applied in our daily life by helping others.  If we do that, we are leading what ES calls "useful lives."

But regarding what you said about knowing what is on the other side.....one would think that since that level of knowing can bring so much comfort, it would be easier for the rest of us to have the kind of firsthand knowledge that ES had.  I would guess 99% of us lack the intensity of intellectual and emotional commitment ES brought to the task.  Clearly, ES didn't just stumble on this knowledge, he had to work hard at it, and it took place over many years.

I wish I could understand why that knowledge is so difficult for most of us to obtain when, as you say, it would bring so much comfort.  Any ideas on that?

R

SPIRITUAL CORRESPONDENCE OF THE CREATION STORY IN GENESIS

I've copied from Bible Study Notes by Swedenborg scholar Anita Dole (1889-1973):

************************************

It is interesting to note that the first volume of the Arcana Colestia by Emanuel Swedenborg, which points out the impossibility of a literal interepretation of the early chapters of Genesis and gives their internal sense, appeared several years before the work of Jean Astruc (1684-1766), the father of modern skepticism. Thus before doubt was permitted to attack the Word openly, the truth which would meet and overcome the doubt was published.

The New Church [aka Swedenborgian Church] teaches that the early chapters of Genesis were copied by Moses from the Ancient Word, which existed before our Word and which was written entirely in correspondences; that is, the things of nature were used as symbols to express spiritual truths, just as the Lord taught His disciples through the various parables so familar to us all. The people of the Most Ancient Church, having open communication with the heavens, understood the true relation between the two worlds and saw everything in nature as a mere ultimation of something spiritual. So the earliest language, both spoken and written, was a beautiful symbol language, the expression of spiritual thought in natural forms. This language was preserved in the Ancient Word, and still is preserved in the Bible. As people turned from the Lord, however, and became absorbed in themselves and in their life in the world, they lost communication with the spiritual world and with it the understanding of the spiritual realities behind things in nature. In time they lost even the knoweldge that the early stories of Genesis had a spiritual meaning.

The six days of creation picture six stages in man’s development into a true human being, in the image and likeness of God, a spiritual being capable of knowing and worshiping God. Because everything in nature was made by the Lord, everything expresses something in Him. So we say that each thing in nature “corresponds” to something in the world of spirit, and the Bible is written in this language of correspondence.  Here are some correspondences to help you in seeing the spiritual meaning within this first chapter of Genesis:

Waters mean truths.

The firmament – or expanse as it is more accurately translated – pictures the plane of our thinking. The waters above the firmament are symbolic of truths about God and heavenly life; those below the firmament are truths about the world and earthly life.

Dry land means our conscious experience, and seas represent truths gathered together in the memory.

The vegetable kingdom stands for our thoughts, the fruit for our deeds. Seeds, spiritually speaking, are new germs of thought which are capable of producing fruit. We may think of the Lord’s words: “By their fruits you shall know them.” And we all remember the parable of the sower, which is found in Matthew 13:1-23. The Lord Himself explained this parable to His disciples, and told them that the seed represented the Word.

The sun is the symbol of love for the Lord, the moon faith in Him, and the stars knowledges of heavenly things. The day is a time when we see clearly, and the night one when everything seems dark, and we must just trust in what we have been taught about the Lord and the good life, as a sailor at night is guided by the stars.

Living creatures represent affections or desires–cold-blooded ones, like fish, affections for earthly knowledges, the birds affections for heavenly knowledges, and warm-blooded animals affections for doing useful things.

Basic Correspondences

light=truth
water=truth
dry land, earth or ground=our conscious experience, which forms our mind
the vegetable kingdom=our thinking
the animal kingdom=our affections
darkness=ignorance
the sun=love to the Lord, from whom all truth comes
the moon=faith in the Lord
the stars=knowledges of heavenly things
waters above the firmament=spiritual truth
waters under the firmament=natural truth
seas=truth gathered in the memory
fish=affections for natural knowledge
birds=affections for spiritual knowledge
animals=affections for useful thought and action

The story of creation provides a practical working outline for the study of correspondences because it contains the great generals. Heaven in the first verse of Genesis signifies the internal part of a person, and earth the external part of a person. the external part of a person does not mean just the body, but all the natural thoughts and feelings which are connected with our everyday life in the world. The internal person is the higher, internal region of the soul, of which we are unconscious much of the time, where are our thoughts and feelings about the Lord and spiritual things. These two are present in every person from the beginning, but the earth–the external person–is without form and void; that is, we have no understanding of the purpose or plan of our earthly life. And darkness is ‘upon the face of the deep’; that is, we are altogether ignorant even of the existence of an inner and higher nature. This condition exists not only when we are infants, but when we are grown men and women if we have not begun to regenerate; for when a man or woman does not believe that there is any higher life than the natural, not only is his internal person in darkness but everything the person knows about the world is empty of any real good and truth because it is not seen in its proper relation to spiritual life. Yet always, the ‘spirit of God’ moves upon the face of the waters; the Lord’s mercy is always seeking to reach us through the things which He has stored up–without our knowing it–in our internal person.

The first beginning of regeneration–the formation of a heavenly character is the coming of light. Throughout the Word darkness pictures a state of ignorance and light a state of knowledge. The Lord was born while shepherds watched their flocks by night; when He was crucified there was darkness over the world. And in the creation story each day–that is, each stage of development–proceeds from evening to morning, from darkness to light, from ignorance to knowledge. ‘And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.’ Of this Swedenborg says, ‘The first state is when man begins to know that the good and the truth are something higher. The very first thing necessary to regeneration is to recognize that there is something higher than our mere external life, something more important that what we can get for ourselves out of this world. Thus God, working in our minds, divides the light from the darkness.

Then follows the second day, in which we begin to organize the knowledges which are in our mind, dividing between those which concern merely worldly things and those which concern heavenly and Divine things. This is the beginning of our real awareness of our internal potential–the firmament–and the dividing of the waters above the firmament from those below the firmament. In the story water first appears as a symbol for truth. To the person who does not believe in God and a spiritual world the Bible is like any other book, and ideas about goodness and truth have no meaning other that which arises out of their effects in this world. But as soon as one recognizes the existence of God and of a higher life, goodness and truth are seen as spiritual realities.

The third day, or stage, brings more definite and permanent accomplishment. The waters under the firmament are gathered together into seas. Seas correspond to knowledges gathered together in the memory. Think, for example, of the place the Sea of Galilee holds in the Gospel story. Then the dry land appears; that is, a person forms a definite idea of what their external nature is and of what its use should be. And from this time a person begins to make their external perform its proper use. It receives seeds of truth from the Lord and produces external good works. Here we have our introduction to the wonderful symbolism of the vegetable kingdom, the basis for the understanding of the meaning of all the plants and trees in the Bible story. We are familiar with the parable of the Sower and with the Lord’s explanation of it: the Sower is the Lord, the seed truths form the Word, the ground the minds of people, and the fruit the good and useful things done by a person when the seed of truth has taken root in their heart and grow up in their life. The many different plants and trees represent different truths. Every plant and tree is a principle grown from a particular truth, and its fruit is the conduct which results from the application of that principle. And as every fruit has seeds of its own kind within itself, so right conduct in one individual suggest to other people the truth of the principle behind it, which they may adopt and develop into right conduct of their own. Notice that there is a progression in the appearance of vegetable life: first the grass–or more properly the ‘tender herb’–then the herb yielding seed and finally the tree yielding fruit. That is, we first develop minor truths whose results are perishable, and later more and more important and fruitful truths.

Now we are ready for another great step forward. The good we have done so far has been the result of the mere recognition of the existence of God and spiritual things. But when we have some experience in trying to live according to spiritual principles, we begin to feel the need for more definite knowledge of God and of His purposes. On the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars appear. The sun is the symbol of love to the Lord, the moon of faith in Him, and the stars of knowledges of heavenly things… If, instead of clinging to our natural tastes and desires, we seek to make our characters conform to the divine standard, then we are acting from love to the Lord and not form love of self. Then the sun appears in our heavens. But we all know that even after we have seen this sun, there are times when our natural desires rise up and darken our sky. Then we must continue to obey the commandments because we know that they are the Lord’s way. This is faith, which like the moon shines by reflected light and shows us the way through our temporary darkness until the sun rises again–until the temptation is past. And we are helped at such times also by all that we have learned from the Word about the Lord and His ways–the stars guide us. This change form self-guidance to the Lord’s guidance is a distinct step in our progress and is necessary to our doing any real good; for as Swedenborg tells us many times and as the Lord Himself tells us in Matthew 19:17, there is no genuine good except from the Lord’s unselfish love in the heart. This is why the creation of the vegetable kingdom and that of the animal kingdom, for animals are warm-blooded, living things and represent genuine good affections.

At the beginning of his explanation of Genesis 1:20, Swedenborg says: ‘After the great luminaries have been kindled and placed in the internal person, and the external receives light from them, then the person first begins to live. Heretofore the person can scarecely be said to have lived, in as much as the good which he did he supposed that he did of himself, and the truth which he spoke that he spoke of himself; and since the person of himself is dead, and there is in him nothing but is evil and false, therefore whatsoever he produces from himself is not alive.’ But as soon as one recognizes that all goodness comes from the Lord and not from himself, everything in him begins to live. The knowledges of external things which the person has stored in his memory–the seas–come to life, as it were, because they become related to the Lord and His service; these are the ‘moving creatures that has life’ which the waters brought forth. And the higher things of a person’s reason are the birds which fly in the air. The great whales are the general principles of external knowledge. That is, fishes and birds picture things of the mind made alive by being related to the Lord as the source of all wisdom.

On the sixth day the earth brings forth living creatures. These are no longer things of the mind alone, but things of the will–good affections. Before we reach this stage we may know what is right and not do it, or we may even do it against our real desire. But when we love to do it, then the earth has brought forth the good animals. Fish and birds always picture things of the mind, lower and higher, and animals always picture things of the heart or will. When these good affections are brought forth, when a person has come to do the Lord’s will, then he has become truly a person created in the image and likeness of God both as to his intellect and as to his will.

The seventh day–the day or rest–pictures the happy state of one who is fully established in heavenly character. We have a taste of this state whenever we have fully conquered a particular temptation so that we no longer want to do the wrong thing against which we have been struggling, when the Lord’s love is our hearts instead of the selfish desire which has troubled us. As long as we are in this world new temptations will soon come upon us. But when we reach our heavenly home, the time of struggle and trial will be past and we shall always enjoy the happy state of willing service. For rest is not inactivity: it is “rest in the Lord’ living consciously from Him so that nothing which is given us to do can worry or tire us. For this reason the seventh day was blessed and sanctified, and the number seven throughout the Word represents what is holy.

************************************
With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Hi Don,

I apologize for my faulty paraphrasing of your posts! I want to thank you for your wonderful posts on ES; and also your search for truth. I'm happy to have sent you the books; it's part of what I consider to be my lay ministry.

Knowing the profound impact ES' writings have had on my life, in healing my grief, and also helping me to understand and accept the reality of my ADCs, I want to share with all who are so inclined to listen.

I'm glad that the books have been of help to you as well. I'll go over to your other thread tomorrow night.

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Hi Roger,

Quote:


I agree with you; they both can't be correct.

Quote:


I think depression is a normal response when a person's spirit is confused and perplexed. Go with what brings peace to your heart and ends the confusion in your mind.

I Corinthians 14:33: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace."

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Hi Don, on the mentioned passage, about RAMs parallel incarnation:
First, I only got a translated copy of RAMs UJ (shame on me!).
I read this passage again and it is nowhere said that this sister-like person is the only incarneted person of RAMs I/There in that timeframe (in my translated copy).
Re-translated passage of my copy:
>>>RAM: Where will you go to then? And how?  I/There: We don't know. You'll have to tell us. RAM: I understand...But are you sure you've got the right one? I've got the impression, there is another one, who is at this point of time a human- another one of this our I/There.  I/There: You're right. That is your replacement team, so to say. A safety copy, if you want. But you're the first in the line.  RAM: This other one...is it -is she- a woman?  I/There: So it is.  RAM: Should I arrange a meeting with her?  I/There: Maybe later. She would seem like a long-lost sister to you.<<<
In this above, according to my copy, it is not told about "the only one" but "another one". Plus, from my point of view, it means another one of the same or similar design like RAM for the task to find the new home or aim for this I/There-Cluster (the topic of this passage). There could be other ones of RAMs I/There incarnated but with a different design and task.
And, I think "group-souls", in the meaning of a gathering of single souls who acts as a collective and then go their own ways again are quite possible and I experienced such thing in minor degree in my own journeys, but it makes the concept of the Disc or I/There not impossible.
Bye, spooky

well I made contact with Monroe along about 2001 or 2002; I assume it was as you say, astrally, but I was not out of body; I was in C1, wide awake. I could check my notes for the exact date. I have them somewhere. Monroe of course was passed on by then.
it was a total surprise, and a very nice short visit. very special to me. I was only in training for retrievals at that time. So maybe Laurie was not aware that Monroe  can also change his mind and get around if he wants to! At the time, I was made aware by Monroe, and also another source that Monroe could be in more than one location within the physical/astral dimensions. he had more than one body. this can be likened to dual consciousness which I have experienced, there being "two" of me. Gordon Phinn also has more than one of his selves out and about, and I have met one of his selves out there.

I do not think you can base your opinion on hearsay Don of what you say Laurie said.
of course, mine is hearsay, yours is hearsay, it is all hearsay...do you hear what I say?
u don't need to respond, I am not challenging you. I am saying my piece is all....to you...hearsay.

cheers, alysia

To Roger,

The questions you posed do have answers and they can be found in the books Divine Love and Wisdom and Divine Providence, both by E. Swedenborg.

I couldn't begin to give you a detailed synopsis of over 700 pages here in this forum. I will copy the back book cover for it states very elegantly and succintly:

Divine Love and Wisdom
http://www.swedenborg.com/Bookstore/Presentation.asp?qsContent=ProductProfile&qs...
"Divine Love and Wisdom has been called the most profound work of the Enlightenment scientist and seer Emanuel Swedenborg. It demonstrates how God's love, wisdom, and humanity are reflected in creation and in ourselves, and suggests tha the act of Creation is not a mystery of the past, but a miracle ongoing in every instant of the present. Like a blueprint of things unseen, Divine Love and Wisdom makes visible the hidden design of the universe, as well as the qualities of its Architect. It's vivid depiction of the spiritual mechanism of the world has impressed things such as William Blake, Smauel Taylor Coleridge, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Jenry James, Sr. "

Divine Providence
http://www.swedenborg.com/Bookstore/Presentation.asp?qsContent=ProductProfile&qs...
Divine Providence is one of the major works of the Enlightenment scientist and religious seer Emanuel Swedenborg. It provides a coherent and satisying solution to what has been called "the problem of evil': How are God's goodness and power reconcilable with evil's presence in the larger world and in the human mind and heart? By tackling an array of issues that commonly undermine belief in God, including war, suffering, and inequality--and by revealing the wise and loving laws that lie hidden behind these seemingly senseless phenomena, Divine Providence aims to restore our faith in the meaningfulness of the world. Despite its universal focus, Divine Providence is also a highly practical book on the personal level, demonstrating how we can put aside negative attitudes and behaviors and grow into positive thought and action. Its insights have had a powerful effect on a wide range of thinkings, including William Blake, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Helen Keller.

Roger, I would be happy to send you a free copy of each of these books. They were literally a life-line for me as I went through severe grief and depression.

Or if you decide to purchase the books. mention my name at the Swedenborg Foundation and I believe you will receive a substantial discount on your first order.

John 16:12-15: Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He willt ell you about the future. He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. All that hte Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.

With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy

Judy,You said Jesus says when it is ready,I will come and take you with me.Its been 2.000 years,and its not ready yet.Judy no one gets a free ride to heaven.It takes many lifetimes to clense the soul of all the sins we have done.The way you are talking,hitler could be in heaven.There is no life as we know it on any other planet.If that were so,than the bible is wrong.George

Hi Don,
thanks for the original passage of RAM.
I read it, but...can't follow your conclusion! Strange. "Another one", one, but not the only one. It's his (personal, special) reserve, backup, perhaps his only backup, but no word about to be the one and only parallel incarnation of his (whole) I/There! The other passages don't make it clearer I think. But, allright. We will not come to certainty anyway.
Interesting your infos about Laurie. But I too had something like a "maybe very possibly could be he" meeting with RAM. No certainty here too, of course.
Did someone ever got informations about a relation of RAM and a barkeeper? Or he in TMI There?

Argument in the astral:
A: Hey, you are making it all up.
B: I? You entirely are pure fantasy!
A: Proof it to me that I'm just illusion!
B: Easy. One moment...right! Can't see you, can't hear you. You are nothing but fantasy, as I said.
A: Hey! Where are you? Can you hear me? This silly guy is just fantasy I knew that! Uuh, wait...then I was the one who was fantasizing or what?

bye, spooky

Spooky,

To return to the quote in question, it's "another one" and "this other", not "others" and "these others."  The implication is that there is only one parallel incarnation--a female one, not Bruce Moen.  At least that's how I see it.  By the way, I want to commend you for your vigorous engagement of this issue.  My biggest gripe about this site is that most posters just freeze like Bambi in the headlights at contrary evidence.  They seem to be every bit as "stuck" in their point of view as the most close-minded fundamentalist.  You are one of the clear exceptions.  I find this refreshing.

Don

As an aside, in my opinion one of the more bizarre things in Bruce's books is the notion that we are "probes" sent here by our disks in order to gather information and transmit it back to the disk.

I'm not sure if this was originally a RAM speculation or if it originated with Bruce, but nevertheless it resembles something you'd expect out of an old episode of the Twilight Zone. 

Kind of reminds me of alien abductions.  The claim that we are abducted so that the aliens can learn more about our bodies is equally absurd, since any alien race capable of reaching earth wouldn't need to keep borrowing bodies in order to figure out how we tick.  One abduction would get the job done.

If our disks keep needing all this info from repetitive probes, they don't have much of a learning curve.

No not much reading, I have enough problems trying to figure out my fellow humans.  I think I am more inclined to believe aliens represent a psychic penetration of our world rather than a physical presence but then what do I know.

I was really using the alien thing as an analogy to the "disk probe" notion.

As you probably know by now Marilyn, I have read and researched stuff about the afterlife for most of my adult life and I am probably way more left brain than right.  As a result, although I am intensely interested in what lies beyond the veil, I tend to reject most of what is not independently verified.

This trait, although it has made me very well off financially, hasn't helped that much in convincing me to accept any particular set of beliefs.

Which by the way might be good, since Bruce has said folks with a strong belief system are usually setting themselves for a crash once they find their BS (nice acronym huh?) is not accurate.

In fact I think Bruce went so far as to say that those of us who are not committed to a specific set of beliefs are those who have the easiest transition to the afterlife. 

So I guess I'll keep muddling on.

R

Marilyn

I thought some of John Mack's ideas included the idea that the aliens were/are a psychic phenomena more than a physical phenomena. I just refer to him because he worked with so many people and risked his reputation to do so.

George,

You wrote:
Quote:

You are telling me one thing and the Lord and His Word is telling me another. 

You wrote me:
Quote:

I answered that I didn't know that God keeps things from us, George. I quoted John 14:1-4. Look at verse 2 ...If this were not so, I would tell you plainly.

If there were reincarnation, the Lord would have told us plainly. Reincarnation is not in the Bible, George. Don has ably and nobly refuted that misconception right here in this forum.

Another verse that supports my stand that God does not keep things from us:

Matthew 7:7-8:

Keep on asking, and you will be given what you ask for. Keep on looking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And the door is opened to everyone who knocks.

So God is telling me one thing in the Bible - that everyone finds what they seek, and you are telling me that God keeps things from people. No offense, George, I'm going to keep on listening to God.

As far as the question of evil and Hitler, I'm afraid that you are badly misintrepretating  my posts. I refer you to the post that I made in another one of Don's threads earlier this year (toward the end of the post where the question of evil comes up.

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-afterlife-knowledge/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=a...

And where exactly does it say in the Bible that there is no life as we know it on any other planet? That's a new one on me... I'd be interested to review the passage if you'll send it.

With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy

Dear Berserk,
That is a lovely story, really funny as well.
God bless you for caring like that about that child. I'm sure you were able to help and he'll definitely remember you all his life. I can picture him now talking to his gran kids about this wonderful but a bit crazy pastor he once knew.

Peace, Love and Light.

Sandra.

Recoverer,

You remind me of a question posed to highly eccentric Bobby Fisscher when he was world chess champion.  The interviewer commented: "Many think that the key to your success is your fierce will to win."  Fischer replied with characteristic endearing bluntness: "I know lots of guys with a fierce will to win.  They're just no good!" 

I don't care what is or was in Moen's or Monroe's heart.  For all I know they may be the nicest guys since David Koresh.  I want to know why I or anyone should imagine these two know what they're talking about.  This requires a focus on the quality of their verifications and their awareness of credibility problems posed by much of what they report.  In this regard, I find both absolutely appalling, despite occasional successes.  [ And I know by direct experience that my own very vivid OBEs and retrievals were merely the product of well-intentioned wishful thinking.]  By contrast, ES's verifications are strikingly stellar and consistent.  So ES's careful refutation of reincarnation by direct experience carries a great deal of weight with me, Or are we going to embrace the claim that the Apollo moon landing was faked in a New Mexico hangar just because the cult that teaches this offers each other loving support?  Every cultist imagines she loves those who reinforce her belief system. 

Many members of this site like to console themselves that James Randi's Million Dollar Challenge sets unreasonably high standards of verification.  What is most telling is the inabiility of Moen and his followers to embrace Fuzzy Quark's modest challenge on this site.  Fuzzy offered $2,000 for anyone who could visit his late uncle and verify about 4 basic facts about him (e.g. his favorite restaurant).  The conditions were so lax someone might have gained the information by cheating or ESP.  Yet Moen assures us that all we have to do is use his method to focus on intent on being with a deceased person, and, bingo, there we are.  By contrast, ES not only routinely succeeded in visiting the dead, but acquired spectularly precise information that cannot be explained in terms of ESP from a living mind.  At the very least, I'd expect an honest and thorough discussion by Moen and his followers about why their attempts to contact someone's loved one failed.  Instead, we get a fear-based flight from the truth with the rationalization that you should do your own retrievals.  In my view, it is not a question of ES being better at contacting the dead than Monroe and Moen; it is a question of ES being able to do what Monroe and Moen can only pretend to do on a regular basis. 

When Moen was unable to work, he gladly accepted the generous donations of site members.  Why didn't he charge money for his services and contact deceased loved ones of site members.  Because he can't do it and won't admit it!

Don

Judy,if you read the story of creation you will see for your self.Heaven is just above the earth,and if you are looking for the spirit world,all you have to do is stick your arm out.It is all around us.If you can find another planet like earth,than let me know.God made heaven and earth,and the moon and the stars.He did not say that he made other planets that would support life.Its in the bible.Love and light George

Self-importance is man’s greatest enemy.  What weakens him is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of his fellow man.  Self-importance requires that one spend most of one’s life offended by something or someone.  

To overcome ego’s hold on you… stop being offended.  Peace is of the Spirit of God.

Let go of your need to win for the opposite of winning is losing and losing is ego’s greatest fear.

Let go of your need to be right.  Ego is the source of conflict and dissension because it pushes you in the direction of making other people wrong.  The Spirit of God is kind, loving, gentle and receptive.  It is free of anger, resentment, and bitterness.  Letting go of the need to be right in your discussions and relationships is showing you are not ego’s slave.

Let go of your need to be superior by seeing the unfolding of the Spirit of God in everyone for all are equal in the eyes of God.

Let go of priding yourself for your intellectual and monetary achievements for all emanates from the Spirit God.  He alone is the Source of all that is.

Author Unknown

Edit:  Guess I'll add one of my own... Ego also loves attention and with over 1250 views, it appears that we are giving the King of Ego exactly what he desires. 

Don, the sweetness of life is within you... you need not degrade others to make yourself feel powerful. You are so funny and even if you fail to realize it... you are discrediting yourself and the image you wish to project as someone who speaks with the knowledge and Spirit of God.  You are loved so very much.  One day you will come to know that and in that day... you will see that you have no advarsaries.

With love, Kathy 

Lucy,

You spout off without even having read through my thread.  In true cultic fashion, you presume confabulation without even bothering to investigate the sources.  Van Dusen provides copious impressive documentation of the witnesses to ES's verifications.

Don

Don,

Have you considered just writing a book about all this instead of using Bruce's web site to do all your talking?

Maybe you can just go start your own website and message board.

I'm offended by your remarks, especially what you say about Bruce because this is his site!!!!!! 

I know you don't care what I think, but why do you keep coming here and keep this thread going?  It seems you don't have anywhere else to do this, and if people keep reading your posts you are just going to keep doing it aren't you? 

Am I the only one annoyed right now?

 

George,

Why not leave this site and take Swedenborg with me?  That's like asking this question about a survey course in American History: Why give  George Washington credit for his role in the American Revolution?   I have continued to post because of the potential for supporting the few members of this site who are actually open to alternative perspectives.  I have gotten a lot of support by "private message" and E-mail; so I know I'm fulfilling my purpose.

I also want to expose the immaturity of many posters on this site who pride themselves in being open-minded, but cannot tolerate radically different perspectives that they clearly find threatening.  I offer reasons and experiences to justify all my contentions.  Few of my arguments are ever critiqued head on.  Instead, people ignorantly attack my motives and my character.  It never occurs to them that they can simply ignore posts that challenge their belief system.  I delight in exposing their shallow pretention to loving harmony.  But my critics are right about one thing: I don't give a bleep about what they think.

Don

P.S. Don't worry though. I'm tired of the lack of meaningful engagement with the real issues of astral projection and retrievals.  So when I complete my pre-planned purposes for my two threads, I will gladly vanish in a pink mist over the hill and leave the site to its gushing groupies.

Don said:
"So when I complete my pre-planned purposes for my two threads, I will gladly vanish in a pink mist over the hill and leave the site to its gushing groupies."

Yawn.  Oh, I'm just having the worst time staying awake through all of this.  Someone poke me in the arm when everyone is done here, would you?  Hmmmn, time for some shuteye.

love, blink

Don,

How can you say you've had experiences but don't believe they were real?  How can you say you've had an OBE but you don't believe it was real.  Or have experienced a retrieval but you think it was bogus?  If you don't trust your own experiences then you don't trust your own conscious awareness OR you simply did not actually experience what you have claimed to have experienced.  Your conscious awareness is your proof. 

What everyone else is trying to promote on this board is that each of us has the ability to find his own proof, and that can only be done by using one's own consciousness or conscious awareness and having his own experiences.  Paying someone to tell you something is not as important (or the same thing) as having the experience for yourself. 

No one will be able to present you with proof of anything, Don.  Only you can do that for yourself. 

Why are you afraid to try?  Why can't you trust your own conscious awareness?  Perhaps you only think you've had such experiences, but they were merely dreams.  Why not keep trying then so you can use your OWN experiences to back up your beliefs?

Have you actually tried whatever ES's methods are and had success?  THAT would be far more impressive if you have.  THAT is something I would like to hear. 

We aren't sitting here talking about Bruce over and over and over and saying boy we sure wish we could do what he does.  We say that we actually DO what he does.  And you don't believe a word of it.  So I'm asking again, what have you learned from ES that you have tried for yourself and succeeded with?  What is DON'S method of astral this or astral that? 

That is where you will find your proof Don, but you need to be seeking it in yourself.

Sincerely,
Vicky

I think the most valuable lesson that Don imparts is to challenge the status quo, and to encourage us to at least explore other possibilities.  In fact, that is really the essence of learning to begin with. 

I personally think colleges should spend less time drumming in dates and places of wars and names of kings and queens (which can be committed to memory and then forgotten after the exam) and more time teaching students how to think.  That is an ability that serves us for a lifetime.

Ok, so here we are on Bruce's website which was originally started to impart and exchange information on retrievals.  But in fact, the number of posts on retrievals goes down year after year.  Why is that?  And does that mean we are "dissing" Bruce when we post things that have nothing to do with retrievals?  Apparently not as long as we observe the posting guidelines.

Fact is, no one has a monopoly on afterlife information.  I have read many theories and outright statements on the afterlife that are full of inconsistencies and contradictions.  So if Don posts something that challenges conventional thinking, and if the website moderator considers it to be Off Topic, it will be sent there.

Don's posts, however, are left where they are posted.  Which means, even tho some folks get upset with what he writes or how he phrases things, his posts nevertheless are deemed to be relevant to exploration of the afterlife.

I don't think we want a conversation board that resembles just cheerleading whatever point of view happens to be prevalent. 

And finally, it's wrong to say Don hasn't given us examples of his own experiences.  Over the past few years he has given many, and they are both compelling and personal.  They are also thought provoking.

I hope Don stays with the ak board, and for those of you who are somehow offended by what he says or how he says it, why not just skip over it?  I can admit there are a few long-term posters on the board that I skip over, but I would never be so presumptious as to say that they should leave. 

Ultimately that is Bruce's call.

Donald, over the years you have taught me many things. First and foremost is that your EGO is all that matters to you. You may not even be conscious of that fact, but a fact it is. It shows in every post you do where you put down Bruce and RAM and all of us 'groupies' (your words, not mine).  Give a man a fish and he eats one meal. Teach him to fish and he feeds the village. RAM and Bruce and many of us teach how to go to the afterlife. We don't do it for others (unless it's a personal request). But you are so caught up in your EGO, your creditionals and Swedenberg, that you won't let anything else through into that thick EGO of yours. What is your EGO protecting you from?  The truth. You are so afraid to find out for yourself and find out that so much of what you believe is not true and that would be the end of Donald. You would have a belief system crash so big that you are afraid you wouldn't come out of it. And I'm sure that the purpose of this life of yours is to get rid of the EGO which has probably been your biggest enemy in every past life.

You have talked a lot about listening to the Gateway Experience tapes which you can never get around to. You don't need them. You have had experiences yourself that you now don't believe. Go within Donald. Make peace with yourself.

I firmly believe that this board's crash came about because of the negative energies that you created here. Yes, energy can do that. I'm not the only one who believes this.

I have written this out of love, not hate. I don't know what it takes to get through to you so I imagine that you will just plod along with your same mindset and make most of us miserable. I hope not, I pray not, I pray that you will wake up and smell the roses and let go of that EGO. The EGO is a survival mechanism, always trying to keep us on top. Let go and become selfless and loving.

With Much Love, Mairlyn

Beserk:

Do you "actually" believe that people need you to set them straight? And do you believe that long logical arguments, with all kinds of examples, are going to do the trick?

Once a person lets go of fear based concepts and allows his or herself to be influenced by the wisdom and clarity of his or her heart, there is no way that he or she will be set off course by a long fear based argument.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. And I wouldn't be surprised if the person or two who supports you on this thread, knows you.

Amen! 




[quote author=blink
Knowledge is not the same thing as Wisdom (101).  

I see Don is up to his old tricks as usual...
Don's been here awhile, a few years, whatever, a speck of time within eternity..what does it matter? we all end up dead...sure hope theres no internet in the sky, I'd like to spend my time in more enjoyable fashion than listening to rantings....

for those unaware, Don has an obsession with ES, could possibly be related to him in some way..who cares? I'm sure we are all related to some famous person...I went to view Don over on another forum, see who this guy was ... Robert Bruce's Astral Pulse....funny....there was Don, sitting all alone in his little room running off reams of material on ES...fancy that....I only saw two people over there who bothered to respond...I wondered why...as I didn't understand his motives...if you are so interested in ES, enough to spend hours writing it all down for the misinformed masses, then why not actually write a book? or go and pay for your own website, and gather together your audience? This is Author Bruce Moen who pays the monthly dues...why be a hog for attention on someone else's website? it's rude.
check out the posting guidelines here Don...here I'll do it for you:
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This Conversation Board provides a forum for sharing questions, experiences, wonderings and ideas regarding the exploration of human existence beyond physical life. To maintain an atmosphere of open, free discussion please follow these posting guidelines. Be polite, it's easy and most productive. Disagreements often lead to opportunities for great discussion and learning, but profanity, vulgar language, name calling and verbal attacks can lead to disappearing posts and/or loss of access privileges. Posts advocating use of illegal drugs or illegal activities will not be tolerated.
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OK, now consider that word Proselytizing well Don. I think it fits you. also consider that u have been posting copyrighted material, and not briefly.
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Proselytizing is discouraged. Posting copyrighted material without the author's permission (except for brief references) is illegal and could get us into trouble. Comments about the Conversation Board itself should be e-mailed to Bruce rather than posting them on the Board. To make this a better place for all visitors coming to explore Afterlife subjects (such as: dreams; OBEs; NDEs; beliefs; perception; and how the way we live our lives Here can affect our lives There) the staff of Afterlife-Knowledge.com will work our disappearing magic on any posts crossing too far over the line. Repeated offences will result in loss of posting privileges. Also intentional use of another User's name will result in immediate loss of posting privileges.
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I have one more thing to say to you Don before I say too say my final goodbye.....

I have it from good source you have never forgiven yourself because your girlfriend committed suicide..you blamed yourself and continue to do so.
when and if you ever forgive yourself for what occurred, everything will change at that moment and your obes and dreams will reveal to you a greater reality and your journey will truly begin.

Forgive. you did not mean to hurt her, but it happened. she told you she's fine. but you will never believe this is true until you forgive yourself.


goodbye. alysia

Amid all this bluster, three questions are worth answering:

(1) Yes, I think rational arguments about spirituality have often worked for me in the past and have even worked on this site.

(2) My method of OBEs and retrievals was a combination of self-hypnosis and a method of inducing lucid dreams.  I can recommend neither since my results were bogus.  But wow, were they vivid and emotional.  I was great fun knowing that I was enjoying a colorful world, while my body was "back there" sleeping--fun until I started to worry about whether I could safely return to my body!

(3) No, I am no shill for Swedenborg.  In fact, I disagree with him in crucial ways.  But I'm so in awe of what the man DOES HAVE to teach me that I'm not interested in expressing my differences.  I only wish I could find and study under a modern Swedenborg.  Hopefully, one will arise.  I doubt I'm up to the task of fulfilling that role myself.

Dear Friends,

I decided to come back and add to my post earlier this morning.

There is not one of us, including me who is able to love with perfect unconditional love. 

We all live in a world that cultivates separation.  Wherever there is the experience of pain or negativity, we can know that we are aligned with our ego, which is not who we really are. 

Wherever there is free flowing love, we can know that we are aligned with the greater God that each of us is.

Since we partake in this world of duality, it is difficult for us to love unconditionally on a constant basis.  And this is where forgiveness comes into play.  First by forgiving self as self knows this already.  To the degree that we are able to love and forgive self, it is to that same degree that we are able to love and forgive others.

In this moment I love each and every one who posts on this board unconditionally.  I pray that I will always be able to get beyond my ego and show perfect love in all that I do.

Love to all,
Kathy

I can't believe my eyes.  A thread is started about a pioneer in exploring the Afterlife, a reasoned, academic summary of the writings of a scholarly person who is all about "questioning the experiences, wonderings & ideas regarding the exploration of human existence beyond physical life".  At first there is minimal response, except from one thoughtful & reasoning individual, & then there is a barrage.  I am one of those people who have been in private correspondence with Don, a kind, empathic, scholarly, ernest, giving individual, who occasionally is mischievous & too easily baited. 

A regluar poster who refrained from joining in on the flaming of a chrstian fundamentalist (who I personally found annoying, but live & let live) is now bidding Don good bye  while bellttling his "obsession with ES" & giving a patronizing lecture on plagarizing.  Another poster who admists to being too bored to read the thread is accusing Don of feeling threatened.  Another poster makes the paranoid assertion that Don is singlehandedly responslible for the crash of the board & the real scary part is her implication that a lot of board members agree. 

The reason I became a member of the board is that a little over a year ago my 19 yr old daughter, Ingrid, died.  Right now there is a heartbreaking case in my town of an 18 yr old girl missing for 5 days; a high school girl who never came home after her late evening shift at a part job at a fast food restaurant.  This website is called "afterlife Knowledge" which attracted me to it in my extreme grief.  I  as a non religious, previously non spiritual person, have got a lot of comfort from writings about the existence of an afterlife, both from people like Swedenborg & from Bruce who has always given me the impression of being a tolerant & gentlemanly individual & from posters like Don & Judy Ebbe & others.    I have never presumed to attempt retrievals of strangers; I'm just grateful for any contact I may have with my daughter.   Accusing a benign, tolerant & knowledgeable person like  Don of EGO? (& a poster even accused him of fraudently representing himself).  I can't believe my eyes.  What are you people afraid of?

Hi Ellen,

First of all I want to let you know that I am sorry for the loss of your daughter.  I think everyone on this board knows the deep pain losing someone you love can bring.  I can also identify with the fear and worry you and everyone in your town is going through with the missing girl.  Just a few weeks ago a fast food restaurant where my daughter worked as a manager was robbed.  (She has since quit because of a disagreement with the owner.)  Two of her employees were jumped as they left and held at gun point.  Thankfully, no one was physically injured, but the emotional factors can remain for a very long time.

I don't have the time to do a lot of reading and posting on this board, but I do pop in as often as I can and like you, I have gained much insight from a lot of Don's posts that I have read.  I hold a high respect for him and meant no disrespect to him or anyone else in my posts regarding ego. 

We all have ego and this is not a "bad" thing.  It is just the way we are.  From my perspective, our ego is what leads us to believe that we are separate from God which creates a lot of fear in us.  Ego leads us to believe we are unworthy of God's love, but that is not true.  Everyone is not only worthy of God's love, we are God's love deep inside of us.  Our ego just makes us think otherwise. 

Letting go of the beliefs we have learned from ego is a way in which we can reunite our entire being with the love of God.  The kind of love that brings us all together with kindness, gentleness, understanding and patience.  I think this kind of love is so much more than just feeling; it's more like a state of being.  This kind of love is the most sweetest, most precious expression and feeling that I can possibly imagine.  So to me it's worth working at letting go of our ego so that we can experience this sweetness that ego covers up sometimes.

Love, Kathy    

ES ON CORRESPONDENCE: THE KEY TO DIVINATION

ES writes: "The whole natural world is responsive to the spiritual world--the natural world not just in general, but in detail. So whatever arises in the natural world out of the spiritual one is called `something that corresponds' (HH 89-90)."

A. HOW TO KILL WITH ASTROLOGY:

This aspect of correspondence might explain the various types of divination.  The most fascinating (if ghastly) radio interview I ever heard was with astrologer Jack Gillam.  At the birth of his son, Jack noted a "death aspect" on his son's horoscope that would become effective on the boy's 3rd birthday.  When this birthday arrived, Jack's wife kept the boy in the kitchen to keep an eye on him.  But when the phone rang, she got distracted and the child toddled out of the house, crawled through a hole in the fence, and headed for an apartment block next door.  The little boy fell into the outdoor swimming pool.  A 12-year-girl by the pool could easily have saved him, but she ran off screaming and so he  drowned. 

Psychiatrist Carl Jung did a study of astrological compatibility between couples.  He found that the predicted astrological correlation clearly confirmed their compatibility. Years later, Jung had second thoughts about these results.  Why should planetary relationships have anything to do with love?  He tried to replicate his earlier study.  This time he found no correlation between planetary configuration and romantic compatibility.  So why the difference?  Apparently, Jung's open curiosity in the first study attracted to him just those people whose horoscopes would create the illusion of  astrological validity.  Jung calls this synchronicity.
In my view, Jack Gillam's belief in death aspects worked like black magic attracting the event that he most feared.  His son's premature death was no doubt facilitated by influxes from negative spirits.

B. MY SPECTACULAR CARD READING:

When I was in grad school, I reluctantly agreed to take my date to the New England flower show.  Quickly bored, I noted two card readers sitting at a table.  One read regular playing cards and charged $5; the other read Tarot cards and charged $35.  I had never had a card reading before and didn't really believe in it.  So I chose the cheaper reading.

The reader asked me to draw 3 cards.  The cards looked like a lousy poker hand to me.  Then she told me 4 things: (1) I should dump the gal I brought to the show.  This amused me because my date had sneered at the readers when she passed them and I took this advice as the reader's revenge.  But the reader was right: we were incompatible.  (2) Then the reader told me I had serious issues with women.  My ex-girlfriend, Janet, had recently committed suicide, but this comment seemed too vague to impress me.  (3) Next, she told me I was good with children and implied that I'd be working with them very soon.  This seemed absurd to me.  I was working on my doctoral thesis and had no time for kids.  (4) Finally, she told me that in the next few days I'd be receiving a job offer from an exotic place, but that I should not accept it.  I dismissed this too because I hadn't even applied for a job.  When the reading was over, I'm sure she thought I viewed her as a fake.

The next week, I got a call from my thesis advisor asking me about an overdue chapter of my thesis.  While I made excuses, he told me he was the commissioner of the Arlington Youth Soccer Federation and that he needed a coach for an under-12 boys team.  He knew I'd played soccer in Canada and asked me if I'd do it.  How could I say no to my thesis advisor?  I felt manipulated and thought I'd hate it.  In fact, the 3 years I coached those boys were one of the highlites of my life.  I had never been married, but those boys became like the sons I would never have.  The next year we were undefeated and made it to the county championship game which we lost 2-1.  So the reader was absolutely correct about point (3).

Two days after the reading, I received an odd call from a professor in Newfoundland.  He asked me if I'd be willing to come and teach in his university there.  I was dumbfounded because I hadn't applied for the job. I reluctantly turned it down because I wasn't close to finishing my thesis.  The reader had said I'd immediately get a job offer from an "exotic" place that I should turn down!   Newfoundland seems pretty exotic to me. So the reader's fourth point proved absolutely amazing!

So how did my bad poker hand yield such spectacular clairvoyance?  For the same reason that Gillam's death aspect proved true.  I'll quote Van Dusen's Swedenborgian perspective (p. 185):

"Astrology is an example of correspondence between the inner person and planetary configurations.  The ancients had a whole host of ways of trying to divine the future and find evidence by the arrangement of material things: the fall of cards (Tarot), tea leaves, yarrow sticks (I Ching), cracked bones, etc.  Usually these systems required a considerable amount of interpretation that allowed some projection of inner processes."

I'm puzzled by several aspects of ES's principle of correspondence.  But he seems to have identified a spiritual principle that can can be both beneficial and a source of devastating evil.  I wish I had a better handle on this principle.

Don

Quote:

Spiritual free will and self-determination is a major theme in ES' writings. In True Christian Religion, there's over 50 pages dedicated to the theme of free will alone. God does not cause things to happen, and in Divine Providence, ES states many times that God cannot do anything bad or evil. Killing a child is evil - and God would never do that, nor could he do it; it's impossible for God to do anything evil as God is LOVE ITSELF. God can only create - God cannot destroy (despite the appearances and despite what mankind has arbitrarily said over the centuries). It is utterly impossible for God to kill because it goes against DIVINE LOVE.

God is omniscient and does know all things; however, that does not mean that God wills all things to happen; quite the contrary.

My understanding of the the "death element" in the little boy's astrological forecast would be more like a warning from God - please take special care on this day - rather than a dire prediction that this little boy's life would be taken. That the mother was distracted and the little girl who witnessed the accident but did nothing to save the little boy would be explained by ES as the lower regions influencing both the mother and girl. You see, the lower regions have levels - just as the heavens do and their influence on us reflects it. Carelessness and distraction are things that the "higher" demons specialize in... and we in this world aren't even aware of it.

I have read 22 of ES' volumes and only came upon one sentence that ES wrote about astrology. I don't believe he called it astrology but perhaps divination of the stars and/or planets. One sentence to the effect of "it's something more than typically thought." I tried researching at the www.heavenlydoctrines.org website (online encyclopedia of ES' works) and found no reference so I can't verbatim quote this sentence for you. However, astrology is not a theme of ES' writings - with only one vague sentence, it's clear that it was not important to ES to dwell upon. I also perused the marvelous biography by Ernst Benz, Visionary Savant in the Age of Reason and there is no mention of astrology. Benz, a well known and respected theologian who wrote many books was not a Swedenborgian, although he wrote a really marvelous biography on the life and works of Swedenborg. Since he had no bias pro or con for ES, I value the biography and believe that if there were more to the astrology angle, Benz would have mentioned it.

And just for the record, while ES wrote that God doesn't decide who shall die and who shall live, neither do we individuals. There is such a thing as an "accident" - things do happen in this world for no apparent reason. We do not pick our own death nor more so than God does. Things happen... sometimes rather unfortunately. However, God can bring goodness out of tragedy if we humans only allow it. We hold the key whether God brings goodness and meaning out of the sorrow and heartbreak of our lives.

Dr. Van Dusen, I believe, was trying to give an example of the correspondences are within all nature because all nature is reflective of a greater, higher spiritual reality. We can ponder upon the things of nature looking for spiritual lessons.

According to Ernest Benz, "His [ES] understanding of the correspondences between everything in the world became a basic tenent of his epistemology, the more he pondered the thought that each natural thing is only the shadow of a spiritual thing and this in turn is only the likeness of a divine archetype. The entire visible natural world was transofrmed for him in a marvelous way under the sway of this idea. Nothing in this world is only what its form and name proclaim it to be but also points esoterically to the higher realms of being... Whoever possesses the key to the correspondences of things can learn the truth of heaven and be born from the heavy earth to the realm of heavenly freedom and truth on the wings of vision. ..
"Swedenborg endeavors to work out in detail a sort of encyclopedia of correspondences. On the basis of a compliation of various passages in which the same word or image occurs, he seeks to determine its symbolic meaning or spiritual sense. For each animal, each color, each figure (person) occuring in the Bible, a unique, definitive spiritual meaning is ascertained, which varies according to the context and is supplied with a positive or negative indiciation. Wherever this animal, this color, or this figure may occur in the Bible, it always refers to some nuance of its basic spiritual meaning. Thus the animal kingdom correspondes to the realm of instincts, desires, and appetites in people, whereby a concrete meaning attaches to each species and type of animal. The same applies to the plant kingdom, which generally corresponds to our knowledge and insights, whereby the individual types of plant have a special meaning. The mineral world corresponds generally and in detail to our fixed principles. In this fashion, the whole of Holy Scripture is transformed into a complex of spiritual meanings..." which can be applied to our daily lives for the betterment of ourselves and mankind.

With Peace and Love To All,
Judy

Hi Kathy,

ES did write that we humans have no good of our own; the source of good is God and only God (Luke 18:19). What we must do is be inspired by the goodness of God - that is the work that we must do. We must do what God has asked us - to live by the commandments; the Golden Rule. John 14:21 - those who love the Lord are those who keep the commandments. And when we do that, out of a spirit of love towards God and love towards others, those are the works that are spoken of on the Bible.

In fact, if you actually read James 2:14-26, you will see faith alone is dead. In the writings of Martin Luther, one can read how utterly vexed he was concerning this passage - so much so - that he completely tossed it out.

Kathy, I too was raised in the Protestant church. All Protestants trace their theological roots to Martin Luther particularly on the crucible of faith alone. But it is clearly not taught in the Bible; the church that I was a member clearly stopped at Romans 3:28 without bothering to read through the end of the chapter - at verse 31. If one reads through verse 31, one will clearly see that Paul never taught such a theology as faith alone.

One might ask - what difference does this make in a person's life? Why bother with theology? I'll tell you why - there are many millions of Christians who believe in faith alone. Now, some will believe that it's important to do what is right for the sake that it's the right thing to do, but I tell you truly that i have met many Christians who have told me that they can do anything that they want and still get into heaven. This leads to spiritual insanity. This type of faith leads to a famous evangelist calling for the United States to murder the president of Venezuela. That evangelist clearly cannot see the insanity of his statements; this all comes about from believing in faith alone. Much of the United States foreign policy comes about from a belief in faith alone and also a belief that God will one day destroy the world (God won't destroy the world - the book of Revelation is not about the physical destruction of the world). It's never acknowledged (and would probably be denied) that it's these beliefs are driving our national/international policies, but it's there in the background influencing it nonetheless.

And look what Jesus says about this - Matthew 15:9). In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Faith alone is from man; not from God. Faith alone is the doctrine of mankind. Also read Matthew 5:19.

Faith alone is the reason that I left the Christian Church years ago. I could not accept that God would "save" an evil Christian (yes, they do exist - look at Matthew 7:21-23; verse 23 clearly says "...those who do evil") but condemn a person of another faith who did his best to do good in his God's eyes. No wonder so many people have left the Christian Churches - who in their right mind can believe that God would save an evil person but condemn a good person simply on the basis of what they believe? Even our own court system does not put away a person for their beliefs, but for what they do.

ES wrote that anyone who lived the Golden Rule (and it is found in all religions and so-called non-religions - http://www.egogahan.com/GoldenRule.htm) would find their way to Heaven; even a person who naively worshipped the sun as God. Many Christians would protest this citing John 14:6 (I am the way, the truth, and the life...). As ES explains it, God is One; Jesus is God Himself. All come to Jesus, when they call upon God, no matter by what name they know God, whether or know they have ever heard of Jesus. 

I prefer ES' explanation; it allows me to be a Christian and yet know that those of another religion or faith are not condemned - that those with a different understanding of God are still loved and cherished by God and provided for in Heaven.  It allows me to see each individual with dignity and respect - a true brother and sister. Not only that, but it's the only explanation I can see when I read those Bible passages. I don't see truth in Luther's statements.

I highly recommend two of ES books - The Four Doctrines and True Christian Religion. Each of these books go into great depth and detail regarding this subject and always with supporting Biblical passages.

With Peace and Blessings,
Judy

George, thats what I picked up also, that Don was the reincarnation of ES...wow...that makes so much sense. love, alysia

ps. however, I sugar coated it to say he was related to ES, either way, makes sense.

George and Alysia:

Both Swedenborg and I are life-long Swedish bachelors who have experienced death premonitions and are obsessed with biblical interpretation, astral exploration, and the relevance of science to the betterment of humanity.     At times when I've entertained the possibility of reincarnation, the only prior incarnation that has engaged my imagination is one as Swedenborg.  However, I am prone to occasional delusions of grandeur, especially if I'm armed with a good bottle of scotch that inflates my sense of self-importance.     So I must reluctantly admit that my Swedenborgian fantasy has no more merit than the many Napoleans who surface during past life regressions.

I accept the critique of reincarnation offered by both ES and Classical Mediumship and will soon post a quotation from hypnotherapist, David Fontana.  Fontana has performed many past life regressions but has grown skeptical about their legitimacy from his conversations with first-rate mediums.  But I'm intrigued by the possibility that a "nonegoic" eastern type of reincarnation might have merit and might even be compatible with ES.  I will post on this in the future.

Don

George, will u marry me?

Marilyn do u have a swedish accent? I love accents....cool...well, not that anybody cares, but I"m full 50% Russian, 50% god knows what, ok, a little Bohemian, whatever. I came from slaves genically speaking of course.

No, no accent. My father's parents were born in Sweden and my mother's grandparents were born in Sweden. Yes, I love accents too. I love hearing Gordon's voice on the phone.

Love, Mairlyn

And I sure do love reading of Gordon's meetings with famous people. 

Jean

adios Judy   and your God be with you also. may you find a sense of humor one day when your God comes to visit. I am so sorry for your sufferings which would cause you to attack others within their beliefs and then to call yourself godly...and say you are above all this. goodbye....this is indeed a heavy feeling I get from you. very foreboding.