Hi Don,

Thank you for all your great postings - very researched and detailed. I meant to comment on something about Phyllis, the medical researcher PhD.

You mentioned that you were surprised at her mother's reaction at the refusal of Phyllis to grieve. You wrote in Post #6 of this thread:
Quote:
 
I too had a very similar experience and reaction. I lost 9 loved ones in 6 years as a teenager: both parents, both sets of grandparents, my favorite cousin, a friend and my fiance who died in Vietnam. I never mourned until 23 years later. And when I did begin the grieving process, I was criticized by several "friends" that I should be "over it by now." I began to feel guilty over the grief and depression that I was now going through. I was experiencing ADCs - most of the experiences were with my fiance'. I told him that I had to let go - that was what all the grief books said to do. And he answered why not hold on? Why not fly smack against conventional wisdom and see what happens?

That answer totally shocked me as it sounds you were shocked about Phyllis' mother's response. Anyway, I decided to hold on and I thank God for that decision now because the spiritual treasures that I received and still receiving by holding on to my loved ones are precious to me.

With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy

Many of you are understandably reluctant to devote many hours to experimentation with the OBE methodology of a particular astral adept.  But perhaps, you might enjoy creating your own methodology and using it to explore states of consciousness.   For example, though TMI's costly Gateway CDs have not worked for me so far, I had an apparent OBE on my first attempt with the use of a book on self-hynosis that had nothing to do with OBEs.  I put the book's self-hypnosis instructions on a tape recorder in my own voice.  When it came time to insert the hypnotic suggestion, I simply inserted my desire to experience an OBE.  When I fell asleep, I found myself bouncing off the ceiling and looking down on my own body.  It was very exhilarating, until I started wondering if I was dead.  That led to my attempts to lay down over my sleeping body and gain entrance.  But my dream finger, kept separating from my real hand!  Then I woke up.  OK, so in retrospect, I eventually realized that this experience was just a lucid dream.  But it gave me a bench mark for discerning the legitimacy of my future OBE experiences (all admittedly just more lucid dreams).  Still, I think it's important to demonstrate to yourself that you can experience unique states of consciousness. 

For those interested in creating their own OBE methodology, I will quote David Fontana's survey of techniques and principles alleged to be helpful:

(1) "One of the techniques for inducing OBEs frequently reported to them (Muldoon & Carrington)
is to start by imagining that one is looking at one's own body from a position outside it, as if viewing it objectively.  Then at some point the consciousness is transferred to the image, from where one can look back at a the real physical body."

(2) "Another technique...is to imagine oneself ascending in a lift, upwards through several floors, and that on reaching the roof to imagine stepping out of the lift and in doing so out of the body."

(3) "...Several times a day one visualizes oneself flying over valleys and seas."

(4) "Frequent instructions to the unconscious are also stressed, so that the unconscious gets the idea..that one wishes to remember dreams, to know during dreams that one is dreaming,...and to leave one's body and return safely."  [My first bogus OBE was triggered by an analogous self-hypnotic suggestion.]

(5) "Emphasis is also placed on positive thinking (the belief that one can have OBEs), upon the ability to relax mind and body, and upon remaining conscious for as long as possible during the hypnagogic state (the state just between waking and sleeping), and upon meditation."

Fontana thinks that a meditative discipline is particularly crucial to OBE success: "I can certainly vouch for the fact that practice in meditation appears to facilitate the OBE....Firstly, progress in meditation helps to still the distracting internal clutter of the conscious mind, thus allowing awareness of more subtle mental states... Secondly, progress in meditation helps one to become much more observant about the inner and outer worlds.  This awareness then persists even during dreaming sleep, so that one is better able to recognize the fact that one is dreaming and to experience the so-called lucid dreams that can act as triggers for OBEs ("Is There an Afterlife?"  417-418)."

[Matthew:] These "jailbreaks "do not invalidate the moral code.  They deal with free will, and conscious beings changing their belief systems.  If there are "vibrational states," these may change with changes in belief systems."
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One of the most universally accepted astral claims is the principle of like attracts like.  If I am an unrepentant child molester with an othewise identical belief system to that of Mother Teresa, I doubt that I'd able to inhabit the same heavenly plane by virtue of a retrieval.  But if I could, then progress in PUL is of marginal relevance in the afterlife.  Monroe would then be correct in his claim that there is no good and evil.   

Say I am retrieved from a child molester's hell and brought to Focus 27.    I'm briefed by my retrievers on the need to respect everyone's freedom there.  So I decide to play along and not make waves until I can be reborn to molest and murder more children.
This site's retrieval reports create the impression that such a reincarnational journey is quite conceivable.   

But I believe that progress in PUL is a vital aspect of the application of the principle like attracts like.  I don't believe that gamblers get to share the same astral Los Vegas without regard to their current level of PUL or progress towards union with God.  But my beliefs in this regard must be tested by direct astral experience.   I must provisionally allow for the sad possibility that the astral realm is governed by the survival of the fittest just like the earthly animal kingdom.   Fortunately, I have ES's awesome verifications to counteract this depressing scenario. 

[Matthew:] "If I hear about Monroe's caveman episode, rape or meeting aliens collecting jokes again, I'll puke.  Those are obvious delusions or misinterpretations of astral events, but so what?"
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For an activity as weird as astral exploration, certain minimal guidelines must be established for the credibility of our sources.   If the source cannot validate his astral gift to respected researchers, then his more bizarre claims of insights gained from exotic beings must be viewed with skepticism.  Respected parapsychologist Charles Tart arranged for a test of Monroe's OBE ability which must be judged a failure despite some minor "hits."  Monroe offered a poor description of Tart's home and was mistaken in his description of the number of people present and the activities of Tart and his wife.   

This failure cannot be rationalized on the grounds that astral matter need not coincide with physical reality.   That desperate claim is merely an illicit  ploy to make a belief unfalsifiable in principle.   Besides, ES consistently retrieves verifiable data from the dead and accurately describes dramatic scenes at a distance (e.g. a strangling, a city-wide fire, a secret compartment concealing a lost receipt,
the details of the last communication of the deceased with his loved one, etc.).

Monroe's poor performance in Tart's experiment cannot be divorced from the lunacy of Monroe's reports of past life recall which betray his earlier career as a playwrite.   To advance our knowledge of the afterlife, astral explorers must demonstrate a firm grasp of the line between fantasy and verifiable astral encounters.   Monroe's disregard for this thin line puts him on a par with the flat earthers who claim that the Apollo moon landing was faked in a New Mexico hangar.   Monroe's encounter with an alien W. C. Fields lookalike is no more plausible than a scene in Woody Allen's movie, "Stardust Memories."   As Allen encounters aliens near their saucer, he plaintively asks, "What is the meaning of life?"  They reply, "Tell funnier jokes like in your early movies!"      

Monroe's ignorance of the line between mere imagination and genuine astral perception is particulary devastating to his case because of the demonstrated possibility of shared lucid dreams and because of the ease with which lucid dreams of OBEs (like my own) can be confused with genuine OBEs.  For many on this site, it seems that just about any dream of a contact with a deceased loved one is naively taken as a genuine contact with that loved one's spirit.    

[Matthew:] "...I am not sure why Swedenberg and Monroe/Moen's views of the afterlife is different.  I would say that our conscious mind interprets whatever information is gleaned either in the astral or in focusing our minds.  I don't know that one model is better than the other. 
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For those who are not "stuck" in the Monroe/Moen doctrine of astral "geography", it seems that there can be as many "structures" as there are astral adepts: e.g. one for ES, a different one for Robert Bruce, and still another for Classical Channeling.  I explore ways of integrating these views in reply #17.  On balance, though, the extent of these contradictions makes it hard to explain them in terms of honest differences in astral perception.  It seems more likely that some astral "geographies" are simply based on delusional astral perception.  I prefer ES's "geography" only because his verifications are so dramatically more impressive.

[Matthew:] "Swedenberg's verifications are a bit bizarre, such as telling a man he will die at 4:45 the next morning!!!   And it happened.  That smacks of the power of suggestion, foul play or a type of use of consciousness to a bad end." 
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Your sympathy for Monroe's insights despite his astounding gullibility makes it all the more stunning that you should challenge this impressive confirmation of verifiable information gleaned from the astral realm. The clock stoppage at exactly 4:45 AM finds many modern parallels, including 4 members of my friend Eleanor's family.  Astral sources not only disclose to ES the exact time of Olafsohn's imminent death, but also the date of ES's own death, which ES confirms months in advance in a letter to John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement.  Such prescience occurs more often than one might think.  The father of my Dad's friend Helmut correctly announced the exact date of his death many decades in advance.   

The Monroe-Moen crowd likes to champion the awesome potential of the Hall of Knowledge in Focus 27, and yet, they are stymied in their efforts to produce significant verifications that should be produced through research in this Hall.  They therefore cast doubt on whether their trips to Focus 27 are anything more than a foray into their imagination.  Yet when ES really does tap this unlimited knowledge and even uses it to facilitate scientific breakthroughs,  he arouses suspicion because his astral insights too closely approximate conventional Christianity.   Sigh! What else can you expect from the myopia of the New Age ghetto?

Matthew, you have miscaricatured my critique of Monroe a few times now.   I've always conceded that he has had SOME interesting paranormal experiences that have been verified.   I've reminded my critics several times that I tried to take the TMI Gateway course, but when shut out, I bought the expensive Gateway CDs and have been actively practicing with  them.  None of this conflicts with my considered judgment that Monroe himself was a New Age kook whose chief literary contribution is a demonstration of how easy it is to be deluded in astral exploration.   Of course, that caution falls on deaf ears on a site whose posters typically identify all dreams about the deceased as genuine contact with them.   If such sites cannot upgrade their level of analysis beyond that of the gullible herd, then astral exploration is doomed to be the prerogative of the socially marginal.  I post in this blunt manner because my critiques have convinced more than a few posters.  My E-mails and private messages confirm this.  I just want astral exploration to escape from its New Age ghetto and become a respected discipline open to the voice of common sense and interdisciplary critique.

Don 

Mathew said: we all have an astral "double," that truly travels.  This is the theory behind projection, supported by near death experiences.  However if we truly are simply focusing our consciousness/awareness on different levels, it may be that we NEED the idea of an astral double as long as our belief system is that we are a discreet entity.  The truth may be that we have no astral double - that is a creation of the mind to allow our consciousness to explore in a familiar vehicle (this is my personal theory).
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I study both out of body and the phase method as well, so don't think it has to be either/or, but can be both.
the truth is we identify with the body. if we were to be just a pin point of awareness, we would at once wish to take on form which is what we have done.
therefore it is also true we have a physical body, an emotional body, and can develop a mental body as we go along, then we might consider to have 7 bodies, insofar as forming around ourselves these bodies which are pure energy constructs..they can be understood as vaporous, electric, fluid like energy constructs. we all know electricity is in the air, although we cannot see it with the physical eye, does not mean electricity is not existant. the aura is also an energy field of color dimension, as there can be color within a thoughtform. we are simplified, a thought of god. our failures here, (self perceived only) would be to to fail to recognize our utter dependence upon relationship with one another to help us define ourselves further. to feel at One with each other than defines as close as possible, next to forgiveness, the action of the glue underlying the universe, PUL, or to say we live and move and have our being, as thought, within All That Is, or as it has been called, that God thing. as fragments of that being, we are that, when we say "I am that I am."
it is the nature of the intellect to divide and separate, while it is your divine nature to pull together within PUL.
in truth we are having an experience to be separate from All That Is, but it is an appearance only for the experience of being human and physical. We are One being and everything is our mind out there with the form it was given.
it's great to be alive!
molesters can be transformed thru grace, if they can see the light, if they can say, no, this what I have done, it is wrong and I will not do this thing anymore. they can allow themselves to take on honor. I have seen this happen, but it is a rare delight.

we could think about it that, well, the child appears to owe a debt, but then where does the buck stop? I have been molested, and if I had done this to a child I could not live with myself to think this way. I would rather kill myself if it turned out true.
I think we set ourselves up beforehand though for these experiences on a soul level, perhaps to learn control and also the powerful act of how forgiveness helps us evolve into better people and less of this acting out on the body as in abuse cases. perhaps we all have murdered and exploited each other since time began. perhaps the idea of karmic dept needs to be risen above as no one wants to feel like we are martryed. at least thats not my preference.
I was very happy that the man I talked about was in control now of himself..just like it was my own accomplishment because PUL had occurred which is no longer distorted by lust.
I feel that with children, they are for us to protect from predators or there are instances where the cycle is repeated on down the line. PUL has a way of erasing all dept and make fresh starts for both victim/perpetrator.
love, alysia

gosh Mairlyn, my post to you got wiped out!
I always feel so silly when that happens!
as if maybe I could just go dig up some other post I've already created, kind of like what Don does, rather than repeating the energy of writing it all down once more, the things we wish to express here...

why are humans so repetitive? gee whiz!!!
blow me down..I'm having so much fun somebody should put a cork on me soon!!!
we do this in conversation as well as when responding here..whatever happened to spontaneity of expression? these are questions perhaps best left unsaid...

what I really want to say to you which i thought I had already expressed and sure some spirit wiped it off cyberspace for a reason..is I'm so glad you posted Neale's piece up here...
its all clear and somehow lovely to read again and again and again and again....

and Don, human nature is contrary..the more you downgrade one explorer/contributor to consciousness in favor of another, the more it makes people want to look into the downgraded personage to see if you could possibly know what you're talking about.
it's called reverse phychology.
tell us to do something...we were born to do the opposite of what we are told.
of course it's all good...because then we get to come to our own conclusions about who said or did what..and compare our own adventures to those of another.

ooouuuuweeee...I love this board....

The distinction between lucid dreams and OBEs or phasing must address innocent questions: e.g.
(1) Suppose I seem to be out-of-my body in my house.  What criteria should I used to distinguish this OBE state from merely having a lucid dream about wandering around my house?
(2) If shared dreams are possible through lucid dreaming, how can we discern the difference between the resulting verifications of this fact and verifications achieved through Partnered OBE Exploration?

(3) Is there a difference between waking OBEs and sleeping OBEs with respect to lucidity, recall, and the possibility of high-quality verifications?  Is this difference a key to distinguishing the lucid dream state from the genuine OBE or phasing state?

Don

Don