I agree Spooky, in a way, in another way, I don't. heres a thought of mine somewhat in  line with what u said: if we knew everything, absolutely everything we could possibly want to know, we would automatically desire to finish this life and be done with it. is good to continue with life then, because I seem to know how short it is in length. just a feeling, but think about it. all those people who did not know they were dead...the idea is to walk towards death with a better idea what is happening, so nobody has to come tweak your nose explaining your body is toast.

Beautifully stated Kyo. ( 1 & 2 )

Love, Mairtreya

MORE ON THE DANGER OF CONFUSING LUCID DREAMS WITH OBES:

To grasp the difficult questions involved here, the reader is encouraged to read my post on lucid dream research on p. 1, reply #1 of this thread.  The problem of distinguishing lucid dreams from OBEs finds eloquent expression in this shared lucid dream discussed by David Fontana.  Oliver Fox enjoyed a vivid dream life and eventually learned to have and control lucid dreams. 

"Later, while an engineering student at ... what is now Southampton University, Fox discussed these lucid dreams with two of his friends, Elkington and Slade, and the 3 young men agreed, if possible, to meet that night in their dreams on Southampton Common.  Fox duly dreamt of being on the common with Elkington, though Slade did not appear.  The next morning, without first recounting his experience, he asked Elkington if he had had any dreams the previous night.  Elkington replied, `Yes, I met you on the Common last night and knew I was dreaming, but old Slade didn't turn up.'  Enquiries of Slade  revealed that he had no recollection of any dreams that night. The boundaries between lucid dreams and OBEs is unclear.  It is uncertain whether Fox and Elkington were dreaming or were actually out of their bodies (Fontana,  "IsThere an Afterlife?," p. 410)."   

Don

"

Vicky,

We often dream about what transpired that day.  So the fact that Fox and Elkington each had a dream in which the other was present at the prearranged site on Southhampton Common is not significant in itself.  More interesting is the fact that both noted Slade's absence.  But dream research at Maimonides Hospital shows that the power of suggestion can routinely transform mere dreams into paranormal events.  So Slade's absence need not mean that Fox and Ellingtom were having a partnered OBE.  Astral adept Keith Harary claims to have experienced the phenomenon of shared dreams.   What we need to know is whether other details of Fox's and Elkington's dream were the same.   LaBerge found that two dreamers can experience identical dream plots with significantly different details that apparently cannot be explained in terms of different perspectives on the same encounter.   Still, OBEs and lucid dreams are probably different states of consciousness.  But I have experienced OBEs that seemed to fit the conventional stereotype, but which I reluctantly realized in retrospect were merely lucid dreams about having an OBE.  

I think the question of whether both dreamers were in REM state at the same time is both measurable and decisive to this issue.   Astral adepts as different in perspectives as Robert Bruce and Emanuel Swedenborg agree that time is trancended only in the highest spiritual planes.  ES's astounding predictions are gleaned from these higher realms.  He learns by experience that spirits below the heavens pretend to predict the future but cannot do so.  

I'm skeptical about the genuineness of many sleep-induced OBEs.   But waking OBEs are more intriguing.  I've never experienced this genre and may change my perspective if I'm ever able to have a waking OBE with adequate verification.  Vicky, thanks for raising these issues.  I will share more thoughts on this topic tomorrow.

Don

please let me extend an invitation to share whatever Vicky; I see u have been holding back a bit from what I gather. I await to hear from u eagerly.

Bruce always said in his books in reference to something you are saying that we have this thing called an interpretor, which tries to offer us physical measurement tools, such as symbology, to explain what is not physical area; we are to nudge the thing aside to get additional info, the interpretor can take you down many byways and away from your intention within exploring. for instance, try not to image a pink elephant..what happens? right away you see pink elephants everywhere...it's mechanistic. to explore for non physical areas, I suspect you have to be very very speciific and focused or u become like a jack of all trades but master of none.

my point today was yours. that afterlife and C1 is a mirror thing. both the same, we do the divisions, we do the measurements of it, we have the clocks that tick.

I would often sit around and talk to my guide friends like this:
Me:  I don't like earth living.
Them: get over it.
Me: first if I want to go somewhere I have to find an address here, so I look in the phone book, I write down the address, I jump in that box on wheels out there, that gas hog, then I have to drive to the location experiencing road rage in myself or others to get somewhere. when I am out there, all I have to do is think about someone's signature, and that's like their address..then I just zip right up to them as in instant satisfaction to complete my task.
Them: well, bully for you miss star cruiser!
Me: very funny. so why earth life?
Them: because we can.
Me: is that all the wisdom I get from you today?
Them: did somebody promise u a rose garden?
Me: no, I think not.
Them: so go drive your gas hog and shut up.
Me: right. thanks a lot.

Vicky, please understand that I am very impressed with Fox's shared dream, though I doubt that he and Elkington actually expected anything to happen, let alone that Slade would show up.

You raise a good question about the relativity of terms like "higher" and "lower" with respect to afterlife planes in a non-spatial context.  Let me outline six reasons why the terms 'higher' and 'lower' are appropriate despite the fact that they reflect a particular perspective.

(1) Planes can be designated 'higher' as a function of their conduciveness to an invigorating awareness of God's loving presence.  Heaven's energy vibrates at a higher frequency because, as ES discovers, the heavens are a realm focused on God and others rather than self, a realm where the joy of one is the joy of all.  A loving harmony is generated that facilitates this higher frequency.  Hell's energy vibrates at a lower frequency because, ES learns, the hells are realms characterized by a focus on self or self-fulfilment above God and others and are, therefore, realms where the energetics clash and slow down due to competing agendas. 

(2) There is a widespread consensus that these selfless godly realms can also be distinguished by their intense brightness.  Astral adepts like Robert Bruce and ES agree on this point.  RB labels the heavenly realm "Spirit Level":

"The background is purest, brightest, silver-white, much brighter than the sun could ever be.  Yet it is an extremely gentle light for all its incredible brightness, very soothing and healing.  It seems to me to be the pure light of divine love (AD 473)." 

ES agrees and adds this insight about Heaven:

"Light varies depending on the acceptance of divine truth from the Lord...or depending on the intelligence and wisdom angels [= discarnate souls in heaven] participate in.  This means that it is different [brighter] in the heavenly kingdom than in the [lower] spiritual kingdom and different in each community (HH 128)."

(3) Souls from the brighter planes can transcend time and flawlessly predict the future, while souls from hellish planes merely pretend to do so (ES).   

(4) Souls from the brighter planes are aware of souls on the lower planes, unless the eyes of the latter are opened to see beings from higher realms.    This Swedenborgian insight is reinforced by many NDEs. 
 
(5) ES verifies that "spiritually rich inner states reflect in surroundings that are gorgeous and rich.  Barren inner states reflect in wretched surroundings (Van Dusen, 89-90)." 

(6) ES allows for considerable relativity in astral perception, depending on one's development:

"Hellish spirits...look human to each other.  This is a gift of the Lord's mercy, so that they do not look as repulsive to each other as they do to angels.  However, their appearance is deceiving, since the moment a ray of light from heaven is let in, these human forms turn into the monstrous ones that they essentially are (HH 553)."

ES adds that the hellbound much prefer their negative existence to heaven.  Given (1)-(5), the terms "higher" and "lower" seem appropriate for the job they are intended to perform.  To dispute them is like disputing whether those left behind in hurricane- ravaged New Orleans are better off than those of us with food, water, and shelter.   Imagine a guy  arguing that they are better off because anarchy is the most exhilarating expression of freedom.  ES's awesome verifications confirm the appropriateness of the terms 'higher" and "lower" with respect to afterlife territories.

Don

Stephen LaBerge draws attention to the essential role of verification in distinguishing lucid dreams from sleep-induced OBEs.  Lab-tested astral adept, Keith Harary, experienced a duplicate of his bedroom's interior during an alleged OBE.  The duplicate came complete with the candle he had left burning by his bedside.  During his alleged OBE, he blew out the candle.  But when he awoke, the candle had burned itself down to the bottom.  Harary concluded that his OBE was genuine and that he had blown out an astral candle.  LaBerge rightly rejects this interpretation and insists that Harary merely had a lucid dream about his bedroom and a nonexistent candle.  The claim that physical objects are unaffected by the astral matter that envelops them is both false and, in any case, makes the distinction between OBEs and lucid dreams unfalsifiable even in principle and therefore meaningless. 

In "Journeys Out of the Body," Robert Monroe describes a fascinating, if cheeky,  experiment he conducted to demonstrate the impact of the OBE state on physical reality.  Without notifying her in advance, he visited a female friend, R. W., who was sitting at a kitchen table with 2 young ladies, one blond and the other dark-haired.  R.W. would later confirm the accuracy of this scene.  Monroe conversed with R.W. during his OBE.  He then pulled this prank: "I pinched her in the side, just above the hips and below the rib cage.  She let out a good loud 'ow,' and I backed up, because I was somewhat surprised (56)."  Later Monroe tracked R.W. down: "I asked her if she remembered the pinch.  A look of complete astonishment crossed her face.  `Was that you?'  She stared at me for a moment, then went into the privacy of my office, turned, and lifted (just slightly!) the edge of her sweater where it joined her skirt on her left side.  There were two brown and blue marks at exactly the spot where I had pinched her...R.W. said, `I thought my brother-in-law had come back and sneaked up behind me.  I turned around, but there was no one there.  I never had any idea it was you!  It hurt (57)!'"

At first sight, the pinch confirms LaBerge's claim that Harary merey blew out a dream candle.  But there is a serious problem.  Before pinching R.W., Monroe had an extended conversation with her:
"I asked if she knew I was there. `O yes, I know you are here,' she replied...I asked if she was sure that she would remember that I had been there.  `Oh, I will definitely remember,' the reply came.  `I will remember, I'm sure I will.'  I stated that I had to be sure she would remember, so I was going to pinch her.  `Oh, you don't need to do that, I'll remember,' R.W. said hastily (56)." 

Of course, R.W. did not remember.  It is too big a stretch to claim that her unconscious did remember.  This conversation is best dismissed as a figment of Monroe's imagination.  When we ask a question in our dreams, we will usually get some sort of answer manufactured by our own unconscious.  Nature abhors a vacuum.   But this imagined conversation calls the whole OBE into question, especially since paranormal feats can be performed in the dream state.  What further confuses the issue is that the spirit may not leave the body even in a genuine OBE.  Towards the end of his life, Monroe recognizes this and prefers the term "phasing" to "OBE."  But if Monroe's conversation with R.W. never occurred, the authenticity of all his OBE conversations is called into question, though I believe that he had some genuine OBEs. 

I like stories and experiences like this that raise profound questions that cannot be answered with confidence.  In my next planned post, I will share two other stories which pose profound questions that I cannot answer.  But if I knew the answers, I would break new ground in afterlife research.

Don