Conversation Board - The Music Box

heisenberg69

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #15 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 2:44pm

'Heck, there are some spirits that need time in order to determine that they are no longer inhabiting a physical body. Perhaps Dawkins will be confused after his body dies.'

A lot of hard-headed scientist types have changed their minds after reviewing the evidence (e.g.Gary Schwartz, Pim Van Lommel etc.) but with Mr Dawkins it would be different because he has a reputation to maintain as a leader of the so-called 'brights' i.e. atheistic humanists - it would be the finish of his career as it exists now; quite some belief system crash!

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recoverer Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 5027 Gender:	Re: The Music Box Reply #16 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 3:22pm Right, Dawkins probably has a lot invested into his belief system. God forbid that he would have to some day say, "I was wrong."
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BobMoenroe Ex Member	Re: The Music Box Reply #17 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 3:43pm Disconnecting from a body can be a belief system crash for even the most light-headed; disengaging from several of the many "truths" that were Truths on Earth. Right is right, right? Right.
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seagull

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #18 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 4:48pm

Carl, what's with your rude comments followed by a fake apology and your further fake blessings...? I'm bored by you now.

carl wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 12:34am:

Berserk2 wrote on Apr 12^th, 2014 at 1:55pm:

recoverer,

carl is revealing his own desperation to trivialize any confirmation of the afterlife, regardless of how irrational it is for him to dismiss eyewitness testimony from those he doesn't eve know. That way, he can keep his philosophical horizons narrow and insipid. In fact, Jim's ADC ignited a fresh spiritual quest that lifted him out of his depression and cynicism resulting from his son's suicide.

I just wondered why Don's "melodramatic music box revelation", which has been previously seen in so many "fictional episodes in many books, TV series, and movies, mostly TV movies." added here? ..Why not have the author-person of this above 'revelation', log on here and verify it?!

You know, and I know, this is not going to happen!!!..Quote from you: " In fact, Jim's ADC ignited a fresh spiritual quest that lifted him out of his depression and cynicism resulting from his son's suicide.

Is your past girlfriends suicide, a mental and emotional unresolved(sub-conscious)catalyst for these above posts of yours? ...I'm sorry, and much apologies..Blessings and Love in Christ Carl
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Berserk2

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #19 - Apr 21^st, 2014 at 10:51pm

Carl is expressing his fear that if paranormal events suggestive of afterlife contact really do happen, then his whole rigid world is painfully shattered. I recently hosted a guy who has studied with Tibetan adepts and the best that Esalen and other New Age thought has to offer. He believes spectacular paranormal experiences are commonplace, but he thinks it absurd to consider that any experiences indicate an afterlife; for him, they just reveal the interconnectedness of all minds. So he couldn't even begin to wrap his mind around Leonard's contact with his truck-driving dead son.

True freedom and the thrill of breakthrough discoveries awaits those who are honest enough to acknowledge the meaning and reality of such experiences to the people who have them. True, these people might be self-deluded; or they might be misinterpreting what they experience. But fact and interpretation are always inseparable in the realm of experience.

Many fundamentalists have NDEs which thoroughly confirm their narrow theological perspectives. In my view, Nanci Denison's NDE is equally biased by her New Age perspectives. But none of these NDEs are simply bogus; rather, they illustrate that the Truth, whatever it is, is easily reshaped to fit the expectations of many.

That is why Colton Burpo's NDE at age 4 is so supremely more evidential in my view than any recent NDEs. His verifications (meeting his sister who died in "Mommy's tummy meeting the grandfather he never met and learning verifiable new details about his Dad's life) are astounding because he had no prior awareness of these people. But his parents' resulting faith crisis is telling because much of Colton's vision of heaven clashes with theological stereotypes and even suggests archetypal imagery adapted to the NDEr's needs. I look forward to the movie based on "Heaven is for Real."

What seems clear to me is this: dead spirits find it hard to get our attention, and so, seek all sorts of unconventional ways to make contct: lucid dream images, weighted down mattresses, stopped clocks, disembodied voices, rearranged furniture, characteristic odors, music boxes, even occasionally Ouija boards.

Perhaps the most telling example of the problem of ADC contact is William James' fulfillment of his promise to contact James Hyslop if he died first. It took a year before a couple in Ireland contacted Hyslop in America with a meaningful message from WJ: "Remember the red pyjamas." The delay and distant communicators suggests WJ tried all sorts of ways to initiate contact before he succeeded.

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DocM

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #20 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 8:09am

Hi Don,

Thanks for this thread.

You said: "But none of these NDEs are simply bogus; rather, they illustrate that the Truth, whatever it is, is easily reshaped to fit the expectations of many. "

It seems that in your quest for spiritual answers, you have an assumption that there is an objective reproducible truth that is the one true path, but that this truth may be reshaped due to someone's belief system. But what if the nature of consciousness, unbound by a physical body is such that there are a myriad of interpretations of heaven and that the basic truth - that of love manifest by God in everything is the only objective truth that there is?

What if Colton chose to access the data stream of his family in an expanded awareness, while out of body? Do these physical verifications confirm his interpretation of heaven as true for all? Colton's father was a pastor. The body doubtless was being taught about God, in a rudimentary way at the age of 4. Yet not in a scholarly didactic. Christian scholarly criticism of Colton's experience centers, (as I read it) on contradictions and inconsistencies from doctrine.

What if Colton's NDE is equally valid to Nanci's, but each filtered their experience through their belief systems and ability to interpret what they saw/felt? Consciousness unbound can choose many options. Love and intent seem to open a range of choices. This is why some tend to focus on verifications and others seem to take an esoteric trip through heaven. What is your intent? Intent seems to manifest instantly both to manifest things (Nanci reports manifesting a tunnel by thinking of it, and then an idyllic pasture, etc.) and to examine data streams that are available.

In another thread, I used the example of a Kindle reader, in that to read a text, one can look at it from different perspectives and times. I believe this is possible when we shed our body too; that we can pick a data stream, be it our family history, our past or potential future, given probabilities, and follow that data stream in any direction we choose.

Did you know that Nanci made several discoveries along those lines, which were then born out in the real world? It does not mean that her version of heaven is more accurate or "truthful" than Colton's, to my mind.

Yes, I do believe that the laws of order and entropy would imply that there is some structure to higher levels of consciousness. But the nature of understanding and interpretation of data means to me that no one person's version of heaven is the "true version." As the NT says: "there are many rooms in my father's house" (John 14:2).

Matthew

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DocM

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #21 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 8:12am

Hi Don,

Thanks for this thread.

You said: "But none of these NDEs are simply bogus; rather, they illustrate that the Truth, whatever it is, is easily reshaped to fit the expectations of many. "

It seems that in your quest for spiritual answers, you have an assumption that there is an objective reproducible truth that is the one true path, but that this truth may be reshaped due to someone's belief system. But what if the nature of consciousness, unbound by a physical body is such that there are a myriad of interpretations of heaven and that the basic truth - that of love manifest by God in everything is the only objective truth that there is?

What if Colton chose to access the data stream of his family in an expanded awareness, while out of body? Do these physical verifications confirm his interpretation of heaven as true for all? Colton's father was a pastor. The body doubtless was being taught about God, in a rudimentary way at the age of 4. Yet not in a scholarly didactic. Christian scholarly criticism of Colton's experience centers, (as I read it) on contradictions and inconsistencies from doctrine.

What if Colton's NDE is equally valid to Nanci's, but each filtered their experience through their belief systems and ability to interpret what they saw/felt? Consciousness unbound can choose many options. Love and intent seem to open a range of choices. This is why some tend to focus on verifications and others seem to take an esoteric trip through heaven. What is your intent? Intent seems to manifest instantly both to manifest things (Nanci reports manifesting a tunnel by thinking of it, and then an idyllic pasture, etc.) and to examine data streams that are available.

In another thread, I used the example of a Kindle reader, in that to read a text, one can look at it from different perspectives and times. I believe this is possible when we shed our body too; that we can pick a data stream, be it our family history, our past or potential future, given probabilities, and follow that data stream in any direction we choose.

Did you know that Nanci made several discoveries along those lines, which were then born out in the real world? It does not mean that her version of heaven is more accurate or "truthful" than Colton's, to my mind.

Yes, I do believe that the laws of order and entropy would imply that there is some structure to higher levels of consciousness. But the nature of understanding and interpretation of data means to me that no one person's version of heaven is the "true version." As the NT says: "there are many rooms in my father's house" (John 14:2).

Matthew

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recoverer

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #22 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 2:27pm

If Colton had an NDE like Dannison, his father might've had a problem with it (considering his religious background).

Therefore, even if Colton was open to having an experience that was beyond what his father would expect/accept, the beings who were with him might've been smart enough to "not" provide him with such an experience.

If Colton had a Dannision like experience, some Christians would consider the part of the Bible that says a demon can imitate a being of light and conclude that Colton was fooled by a Demon.

If they instead considered Jesus' statement regarding knowing them by their fruits, they might figure that any being who radiates perfect unconditional love has good fruits and isn't a demon, even it enables a person to have an NDE that doesn't precisely match up with the Bible.

In a way I found it troubling that an NDE that is more fundamentalist than many others gets so much attention. To an extent where a movie was made.

But perhaps this is what some fundamentalists need to become free from a fear-based belief system. They first need to be introduced to NDEs by an experience that matches up with their pre-conceptions. Perhaps such acceptance might help them open up to considering what other NDEs say. Of course this can be difficult if one is overly influenced by a fear-based belief system.

I don't mind so much that Colton spoke of seeing a dragon like devil because I believe unfriendly beings exist. But it bugs me that he was concerned about whether a man died without accepting Jesus first.

Some people believe this way because they are afraid not to because if they don't they will supposedly be sent to hell for all eternity.

Certainly things are set up in a more wise, loving and sensible way. But how will people find such a way if fear prevents them from doing so?

I once had a dream where I was in a classroom with a number of people. We were trying to figure out how to make this World a better place. I said "perhaps we should invite some Christian fundamentalist leaders to this meeting." Suddenly Jesus was there and he angrilly said, "Impossible!"

The sense I got from this is that fundamentalists aren't going to help this World become a better place with their way of thinking. Considering how long many of them have been around, this seems true.

I don't know, but I doubt that Jesus appreciates it when fundamentalists speak of him in the way they do. His life wasn't about a fear-based belief system. I figure that Jesus can tell the difference between a heart that radiates love and a heart that radiates fear.

I don't believe it is possible to completely love something if to some degree you fear it.

Albert

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recoverer

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #23 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 2:28pm

recoverer wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 2:27pm:

If Colton had an NDE like Dannison, his father might've had a problem with it (considering his religious background).

Therefore, even if Colton was open to having an experience that was beyond what his father would expect/accept, the beings who were with him might've been smart enough to "not" provide him with such an experience.

If Colton had a Dannision like experience, some Christians would consider the part of the Bible that says a demon can imitate a being of light and conclude that Colton was fooled by a Demon.

If they instead considered Jesus' statement regarding knowing them by their fruits, they might figure that any being who radiates perfect unconditional love has good fruits and isn't a demon, even it enables a person to have an NDE that doesn't precisely match up with the Bible.

In a way I found it troubling that an NDE that is more fundamentalist than many others gets so much attention. To an extent where a movie was made.

But perhaps this is what some fundamentalists need in order to become free from a fear-based belief system. They first need to be introduced to NDEs by an experience that matches up with their pre-conceptions. Perhaps such acceptance might help them open up to considering what other NDEs say. Of course this can be difficult if one is overly influenced by a fear-based belief system.

I don't mind so much that Colton spoke of seeing a dragon like devil because I believe unfriendly beings exist. But it bugs me that he was concerned about whether a man died without accepting Jesus first.

Some people believe this way because they are afraid not to because if they don't they will supposedly be sent to hell for all eternity.

Certainly things are set up in a more wise, loving and sensible way. But how will people find such a way if fear prevents them from doing so?

I once had a dream where I was in a classroom with a number of people. We were trying to figure out how to make this World a better place. I said "perhaps we should invite some Christian fundamentalist leaders to this meeting." Suddenly Jesus was there and he angrilly said, "Impossible!"

The sense I got from this is that fundamentalists aren't going to help this World become a better place with their way of thinking. Considering how long many of them have been around, this seems true.

I don't know, but I doubt that Jesus appreciates it when fundamentalists speak of him in the way they do. His life wasn't about a fear-based belief system. I figure that Jesus can tell the difference between a heart that radiates love and a heart that radiates fear.

I don't believe it is possible to completely love something if to some degree you fear it.

Albert

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recoverer Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 5027 Gender:	Re: The Music Box Reply #24 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 2:29pm Argh, the edit button didn't work again.
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Rondele

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #25 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 7:31pm

I've been re-reading ES trying to find what if anything he had to say about ADCs. So far no luck. But considering the sheer volume of his material, it's possible somewhere in his vast writings there's a mention or two about it.

Btw I also don't find any references to retrievals. He indicates that we all go directly to the World of Spirits when we did, and then go to heaven or hell depending entirely on the nature of our love.

And he also states that our nature on earth mirrors our nature in the spiritual world implying that we co-exist in both places. Same thing Newton and others said. And moreover, that nature is not subject to change...it is what it is. Essentially immutable.

Seems like a pretty stark picture. Don't see where redemption or grace comes into ES' writings.

R

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recoverer

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #26 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 7:52pm

That's one of the reasons I couldn't fully accept what Emanuel wrote. At times he says things that imply that for some Souls redemption is hard to obtain, if at all.

I found it odd that he wrote about a bad Soul being thrown into a lower realm head first.

rondele wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 7:31pm:

I've been re-reading ES trying to find what if anything he had to say about ADCs. So far no luck. But considering the sheer volume of his material, it's possible somewhere in his vast writings there's a mention or two about it.

Btw I also don't find any references to retrievals. He indicates that we all go directly to the World of Spirits when we did, and then go to heaven or hell depending entirely on the nature of our love.

And he also states that our nature on earth mirrors our nature in the spiritual world implying that we co-exist in both places. Same thing Newton and others said. And moreover, that nature is not subject to change...it is what it is. Essentially immutable.

Seems like a pretty stark picture. Don't see where redemption or grace comes into ES' writings.

R

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DocM

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #27 - Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 10:28pm

Nothing is immutable other than love. I think we see this in lessons in life in the physical world; everything is born, flourishes and dies. Everything evolves in one way or another. Tom Campbell describes this as the law of evolution working both in the physical world and on a spiritual level; that of consciousness systems always evolving to decrease entropy (randomness) thereby increasing organization and function.

I don't think ES was talking of a stark afterlife where we were doomed to stagnation at whatever stage of growth we had. He talks of many souls being "open to instruction," which implies a continuing evolution of spirit. For those not open to instruction, yes, he did imply that some might end up willingly in a restricted belief system (hell), but he really did not go into their long term fate in detail (that I am aware of).

Consciousness runs on intent causing manifestation, and all of this is based on free will. Anyone who stays in one region of consciousness does so as long as it suits them, and as long as they maintain the barriers to thought (belief system) that keeps them there. There are no external locks on the doors managed by outside forces. The gates of hell are locked from the inside (whether the person is aware of this or not).

Roger, my take on ES's speaking of an unchangeable "nature" to all of us, is our general "love." I may have a love that seeks my to uncover mysteries. Another may have a love of entertaining others, a love of music, a love of animals, etc. These core-loves likely carry over and stay part of us, but do not imply that we do not continue to evolve in spirit, or are somehow forbidden from heaven/spiritual advancement by our true nature. Rather that we take with us our insight and talents which are unique to us, and these are a part of us always. At least that is my take on what ES was talking about.

Matthew

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Lights of Love

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #28 - Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 11:03am

Interesting posts on this thread!

Don, much of what you're saying in your last post makes a lot of sense. I do think the experiences of not only NDErs, but also OOBErs have much to do with the individual's personal beliefs and expectations. There's also another aspect to the books that are written and that is they are not necessarily the author's words entirely, but are edited, even modified to suit the publisher's thought based on the anticipated sales.

My daughter's an editor and she's often told me how some books are practically rewritten to suit the publisher. Just last weekend she told me how most of what an author wrote in a book doesn't even make sense, so she had to do a complete rewrite of the book including the table of contents. A new age book publisher will likely slant any discourse in the direction of new age thought, as would a Christian book publisher. They write for their known audiences. This makes me wonder how much control a publisher has over, not only an author's books, but also what they talk about at their speaking engagements, workshops, movies, etc. And how much a book may be altered from the author's actual experience when something like that is done. Not that a book would be overly embellished to the point of exaggeration, but who knows how much of the content was polished in ways that differ from the author's own description. This also makes me wonder about ES works and how much differs through translation as well.

Kathy

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Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.

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recoverer

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Re: The Music Box
Reply #29 - Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 12:46pm

Kathy:

That's interesting about the publishing. After I wrote my books I had to consider whether to find a publisher or self publish. For numerous reasons including the possibility of the below I decided to not try to find a publisher.

Chances are that a publisher wouldn't want to publish my books. They don't have any money making potential.

I don't know, but Nanci doesn't seem like a person who would allow a publisher to tell her what to write. I'm not saying that you were speaking of her specifically.

Lights of Love wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 11:03am:

Interesting posts on this thread!

Don, much of what you're saying in your last post makes a lot of sense. I do think the experiences of not only NDErs, but also OOBErs have much to do with the individual's personal beliefs and expectations. There's also another aspect to the books that are written and that is they are not necessarily the author's words entirely, but are edited, even modified to suit the publisher's thought based on the anticipated sales.

My daughter's an editor and she's often told me how some books are practically rewritten to suit the publisher. Just last weekend she told me how most of what an author wrote in a book doesn't even make sense, so she had to do a complete rewrite of the book including the table of contents. A new age book publisher will likely slant any discourse in the direction of new age thought, as would a Christian book publisher. They write for their known audiences. This makes me wonder how much control a publisher has over, not only an author's books, but also what they talk about at their speaking engagements, workshops, movies, etc. And how much a book may be altered from the author's actual experience when something like that is done. Not that a book would be overly embellished to the point of exaggeration, but who knows how much of the content was polished in ways that differ from the author's own description. This also makes me wonder about ES works and how much differs through translation as well.

Kathy

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