Conversation Board - What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterlife?

B-dawg

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What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterlife?
Feb 17^th, 2007 at 3:32am

Assuming, of course, that the afterlife exists at all
(I assign a definite "maybe" to the possibility of
a post-mortem conscious existence. "Insufficient
data" is what comes up when I ask the question, you
might say.)
Most religions, mystics, and secular spiritualists say it
is INESCAPABLE, and ETERNAL.
Most also hold to the dualist "Heaven/Hell" interpretation,
as well. (No third option!)
Now, I understand that most people LOVE life, and would like
it to last forever (why else do you think stories about vampires,
ect. are so popular) but having truly "put my irons into the
fire" and having soul-searched the concept of life being
better than oblivion...
I truly cannot find a good reason, as to why life should be
preferable to oblivion. Why?
Because life entails LOSS, in one way or another. (Indeed, if
at least OTHER PEOPLE didn't lose, how could you gain?)
Sources purported to be from the "next world", claim that
losses exist there as well (e.g. to progress, you might have to
give up cherished aspects of yourself, if not lose your body as
it is said to be here in "C1.")
Fact is, I just DON'T LIKE conscious existence very much. I
certainly don't want to have to endure it FOREVER.
(Although, I still might take a shot at cryonics... there is an
appeal to the idea of being fixed at the age of 30 or so, in
a future world where you can drink, smoke, inject, eat, or #*$&
whatever you want, and be as big of a pig as you want, because chronic
"diseases of moral turpitude" like heart disease, emphysema, and liver failure have been conquered by nanotech! But even THAT would get
old after a couple centuries, at which time I'd take the "easy way
out." The thing is, it wouldn't be FOREVER, I don't want that!)
At the same time, I don't want to have to be changed into
someone totally FOREIGN to who I am, as this would be
necessary for me to "enjoy" eternal consciousness, THAT
I know for a fact.
What rule, says I can't have oblivion?" If there is a "God", what
rule or principle makes him say "NO" to just letting me go? Or
the countless millions of others on this planet who, like me,
desire oblivion after we die (there ARE a lot of us... Europe is
FULL of atheists and agnostics, even if America has degenerated
into a superstitious, religion-crazed banana republic since the 1960's
or therebouts!)
After all, I didn't VOLUNTEER for "This Man's Army" (assuming reincarnation is the lie that Western theology claims it is, OR if Bruce is right and I as an individual point of consciousness, did NOT exist prior to my conception...)
I WAS DRAFTED..!

"Hell no, we won't go!!!"
(Afterlife draft riot chant?)
B-demonstrator

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karmickiss

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #1 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 6:17am

Hi There...I'm not on this board as often as I'd like, but am making a conscious effort to be here more often...and ironically, one of the reasons is that I fall into some pretty deep depressions...and life get's busy,and when I'm feeling particularly "yucky"...every little thing seems overwhelming...

However, I do like to peek in,and occasionally add my usually entirely too long two cents....and some of the posts I have read of yours make me laugh truly outloud...and NOT in any mean hearted way,either, and not b/c I think I have some hidden answers or anything negative like that..but simply b/c I can seriously "relate" to the emotion I feel behind some of your thoughts, and also I can understand, and have felt the same way many many times even in a day, of wishing for oblivion....and not surprisingly, I'm a recovering addict b/c one way I dealt with alot of my own outrage with certain things was to try and numb myself to a certain kind of oblivion.

Certainly from a young age I became disheartened by religions, but mostly b/c of the "politics"or hypocrisy that I felt from people themselves, though alot of the ideals are nice..and so am very eclectic in my spiritual views. I think I'd really have certainly done myself in if it wasn't for the experiences I've had myself all through life that I cannot explain..and as life has moved along, I keep learning,and growing,expanding my understanding...and I definately am not anything like "guru" material.. Grin

...and some days everything seems to fit so well,and others, well, ..not so...and perhaps I'm truly mentally ill or disillusioned,but whatever works, I guess I won't try to fix unless a better way shows itself....

Again, I write this with zero sleep being the insomniac I am...so be gentle... Wink

I am one of those that definately believes in an afterlife...and I actually look forward to it....But only b/c of what I feel I have learned about it so far,and b/c I think it's so very individual, and we don't all fit in the same molds, so to speak..and the reason I look forward to it, is that I, too, have struggled with, and esp. lately, I admit, since depression lurks so close these days...the feeling that I'm almost "forced"to be in a place that I desperately wish I wasn't. I'm also one of those people that believe in reincarnation..and when I think of it, I also think that I may have even elected to come back here, and then I get disgusted with myself for having made such a decision...lol..

I also feel really out of touch with my physical self, so much of the time, and that's been so from a very young age...and there may be several reasons for it..but simply, I feel ill at ease,I think you could say, in this reality...I mean, I'm grateful for what I do have,my kids,and having basic needs, and can say that there are beautiful things in this world...but I feel like why?..why...some days, I really get upset, that if I could choose to come here, why I cannot choose to leave...I just can't bring myself to actually kill myself..and I've been guilty of saying myself that when someone dies their "work" must have been done here, and then think,my "work" must not be finished, but then I think, why can't I choose to continue it on the other side, instead of feeling like I'm just so tired I wish I could just slip into a dreamless sleep for a good long time. I just can't and there are several reasons, the effects it would have on any that love or depend on me..and there seems to be a universal spiritual taboo about it that I can "feel"better than explain..but I can really say,that I think I'm much more at home in my astral or spirit body,however one wants to call it..and some days I am angry too...feeling like a hostage, even...and then I feel guilty, b/c I feel like I should be more "A OK" with it,esp. since I have honestly had some really incredible and wonderful "spiritual awakenings" I guess is one way to say it...but they seem so fleeting some days, and perhaps that's b/c my depression might cut me off from that feeling of unconditional love I wish I could hold hostage, speaking of hostages...

I wish I had an answer(s)...and there's no way I will ever say my opinions are fact,but simply my reality, and I do appreciate the fact that you have the intestinal fortitude to express your feelings and thoughts so honestly.I feel lucky in one crucial way....even though I honestly don't enjoy my conscious life...at least esp. lately..not all the time, but there are times I intensely dislike just being here, and feel frustrated b/c I would like to enjoy life more...I know that there are people that have truly horrendous situations and are truly happy..and my hat goes off to them,and I would like to get there one day, and have had moments,glimpses..but the one thing that keeps me going some days, is the thought of the afterlife,mainly b/c of so many experiences with the "paranormal", and the consistency and/or similarities that they have with others that have had similar experiences, and the substance that alot of them hold.. hope,and love..etc..and I don't believe in any conventional heaven or hell scenarios...unless one makes that the reality by sheer will and expectation...but I feel..I have no scientific proof of my own to offer,but I deeply feel that the afterlife is a place that I excell in...I am a nerd by nature, and all those things I want to know/learn, I feel we can do there in a more unimpeded way,when not so distracted by physical survival, and the strife and agonies of this world...I think most of my pain probably is self made..but I feel that we forget much of what lies beyond during these short lifetimes(though it can seem long)for the reason of trying to act out or live spiritual principals that are obvious and readily available there..maybe a kind of "test"..or"practice"...I'm not equipped to share anything more than my own opinion..and I don't feel it comes from a wish-fulfillment place...b/c it just feels like I can "remember" bits and pieces of what is beyond, over, or whereever or however one wants to put it..and I feel that it is a place where we can choose a kind of oblivion, and/or "rest" from the struggles of this world if we choose...in my view...I just feel in my gut,that the afterlife is a place where we can make our realities much easier than be slaves to it...and I think that "enlightenment" in this earth plane, probably has alot to do with finding how to bring that into this world, into our lifetimes here....though I'm certain I have a loong way to go....lol....It's the one thing that keeps some sanity for me some days, it really does,b/c to really simplify it....to me it kind of feels like death will be like sliding into home base, or a place of sanctuary from the pains and trials of this world, and that can be different for us all.....

Ok...more than enough from me...but I feel the frustration..and I just wanted to respond in some way at least to say that even if we are very different, or have different views, different lives..etc...etc...that I think I can understand at least in part, how you are feeling...and I think it's an honest place to start for us all, identifying and expressing how we feel and think...and I'm always grateful for this board, to be free to express myself as well..the good, the bad,and the ugly... Wink

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"All truth is eternal. Truth is nobody's property; has no race, no individual can lay exclusive claim to it. Truth is the nature of all souls."--Swami Vivekananda

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DocM

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #2 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 11:27am

Brendan,

You make the same assumptions for the afterlife that people who find misery on earth make. Eastern philosophies/religions such as buddhism state that all of man's misery stems from looking at the world as a permanent place, and not acknowledging that change, flux, loss and gain are the way of the world. /You see an unchangeable eternity; if one goes to a hell, in your way of thinking, one stays there. If you go to a heaven - it seems you believe you strum a harp for eternity. Nothing in your or my earthly experience supports the notion of a static or unchanging eternity. This is what you are missing. You ask, what rule necessitates an inescapable afterlife. It is simple. If consciousness is primary, then it may persists when our bodies drop off. What happens at that point is up to you. You still see yourself being acted upon by a universal force, rather than following a path that your soul takes you to.
I have no doubt that a type of oblivion is possible, but I think the choice would be yours after being given every opportunity of this marvelous universe to explore.

M

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Shirley

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #3 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 11:56am

Brendan..as I read your posts, I feel a sense of frustration. A primal urge to scream, even. Tongue

I don't believe its a "rule" imposed by a "god". To my way of thinking, its more of a physics law.."law of gravity" type of thing. Cause and effect. It just IS.

The viewpoint you hold is still very rooted in Fundamental Christianity. A duality that may or may not really exist. Good and bad. Black and white. Heaven and hell.

How about neutral? Neither good nor bad? Gray? Not sure what neutral of heaven and hell would be?

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blink

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #4 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 2:09pm

Hey Chum,

I think we just don't realize what it will be like when we are offered all that the afterlife universe has to offer.

I mean, why assume that your experience of the the things you like to do, or your frustrations, would actually be the same there?

What if you went to the "hospital" there and were given the equivalent of an antidepressant, and even a little bit of a tranquilizer to relax you. What if you sat up in your hospital bed and thought, wow, I really feel alright. What if you thought, hmmmn, I don't even want a cigarette or a drink anymore?

What if the nurses were really pretty? What if a special one was assigned to you?

What if there was a special "therapy room" where you would meet the big "G" and you were instructed to just let him have it with all you've got.

What if you did. What if you were then hit with a big blast of PUL that knocked you right off your feet?

What if all the obsessive thoughts suddenly just weren't there anymore, and suddenly you became so interested and focused that the "afterlife" became very interesting....again...assuming you've been there before.

I'm just saying that you may be given gifts there which offer much more control over your experience than you might expect. And it just might be something to look forward to.

love, blink

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Steve_Ed

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #5 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 2:38pm

As a matter of fact, Chum, Robert Monroe in one of his books states that it is indeed possible to leave the Earth Life System and it's related afterlives at any time we find necessary. Personally, reading this rang true to me so consider that we ARE free to leave to pursue other "Amusement Parks." This rang true to me in a happy way so please consider this and other infinite possibilites.

I have been doing some thought about the law of attraction, and in my experience, it is a major factor in determining success from failure. Example: When I played Starcraft with people, being afraid of losing a game has just caused people to rush me first and screwed up my ability to play. Playing with focus upon having fun playing and scoring victory has magical results and lets my game flow.

From a logical point of view, dwelling upon negatives and misery is just a waste of time and energy! Logically, being possitive and sure about being successful will put us in the state of action that will bring us there rapidly. It is all about taking responsibilty for your own thoughts and DISPOSING those that are NOT your own, especially those thoughts that be little one's skill.

Wish Possitive,
Steve Ed.

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dave_a_mbs

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #6 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 4:11pm

HI B-Man-
What you say resonates with me as with many others. I too had days when I wondered whay I had to be here, as opposed to not being anywhere - and then the anxiety of maybe that could happen too.

I have no clear idea of what it is that ties us to our existences. Matt is correct in analyzing the problems of life, that ultimately they arise from fixed desires in a changing world - and beyond that, the problem is that we have desires of any sort, as opposed to simply letting reality flow, and more or less surfing over it.

But that is after we get stuck here. So I performed an interesting experiment, and decided to simply stop participating. I stopped breathing. It was a rather short-lioved experiment, as I promptly noticed that I had a relatively great investment in internmal ventilation! But I'm certain that if you really want the core answer to how we get stuck here, it begins with attachment to the simple operation of making air go in and out. Master that, and I suspect that you could go anywhere. In Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Swatmarama points out that masters of kumbaka (holding the breath) are well on the way to nirvakalpa samadhi. However, not being a master, all I sensed was that I intensely desired to start breathing again - which I did, obviously. So, on that note, one reason that I personally am stuck here is that I was unable to get out.

There may be an obscure moral to that tale, but at present, it seems that not only have we been volunteered without asking for it, but that we're hooked onto a body in such a way that we can't escape. From the viewpoint that everything is God and all this is just a big Divine Experience, lila, the divine play of Brahman, then this makes some kind of sense. From a purely material basis, it gets a bit sketchy when we start asking "why". However, when we try to leave, we all get the nessage of "why not.

I guess that it's the old story - when infinte bliss is availabl, we might as well relax and enjoy it.

dave

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B-dawg

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #7 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 10:08pm

Hey Chum,

I think we just don't realize what it will be like when we are offered all that the afterlife universe has to offer.

I mean, why assume that your experience of the the things you like to do, or your frustrations, would actually be the same there?
*****************
"As above, so below" applies here, right? OR am I mistaken about this
ancient and likely true axiom..?

What if you went to the "hospital" there and were given the equivalent of an antidepressant, and even a little bit of a tranquilizer to relax you. What if you sat up in your hospital bed and thought, wow, I really feel alright. What if you thought, hmmmn, I don't even want a cigarette or a drink anymore?
*****************
You've got to understand, I wouldn't WANT to give up those things.
Consider this... I'm working on quitting smoking right now. My mother has just been diagnosed with severe hardening of the arteries, so I know that I might be next if I don't quit. BUT...
In the "afterlife", presumably you can't get diseases, right? So SCREW "purity and holiness"! I'll smoke, drink, and snort cocaine if I want, and to hell with the whole shebang if it's "illegal" there. (Although oblivion would still beat all that, IMHO...)

What if the nurses were really pretty? What if a special one was assigned to you?
*****************
Naw, she'd probably be fat and ugly (or male.) More "churchy" that
way.

What if there was a special "therapy room" where you would meet the big "G" and you were instructed to just let him have it with all you've got.
*****************
Blink, I don't think it would be pretty (especially after I wished myself
20 feet tall, with a chest ten feet across and arms like redwood trunks, and went at "God" with three-foot-long, razor-sharp push daggers in both hands...)
And that would just be for STARTERS..!

B-man

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B-dawg

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #8 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 10:35pm

As a matter of fact, Chum, Robert Monroe in one of his books states that it is indeed possible to leave the Earth Life System and it's related afterlives at any time we find necessary. Personally, reading this rang true to me so consider that we ARE free to leave to pursue other "Amusement Parks." This rang true to me in a happy way so please consider this and other infinite possibilites.
*****************
-Like oblivion, to name my favorite possibility?

I have been doing some thought about the law of attraction, and in my experience, it is a major factor in determining success from failure. [i]Example: When I played Starcraft with people, being afraid of losing a game has just caused people to rush me first and screwed up my ability to play. Playing with focus upon having fun playing and scoring victory has magical results and lets my game flow.
*****************
Pardon my cynicism. But if you're a clumsy oaf (after you've physically matured and your brain has become hard-wired - kids are an interesting exception to this rule, as they can still adapt to a degree) you'll never
become a kung fu master, no matter how much positive thinking you do (to give one example.) Why? because you didn't have the GENETICS to become a kung fu master (or video game wizard, or what have you.) That "Napoleon Hill" stuff is great for making Napoleon Hill rich from his book sales, but not much else.

From a logical point of view, dwelling upon negatives and misery is just a waste of time and energy! Logically, being possitive and sure about being successful will put us in the state of action that will bring us there rapidly. It is all about taking responsibilty for your own thoughts and DISPOSING those that are NOT your own, especially those thoughts that be little one's skill.
*****************
-Precisely! Which is why I'm taking responsibility NOW, and declaring to the universe...
"Take this job and SHOVE it!
I ain't a-working here no more..."
(After I die, anyway.)
Now THERE'S a positive wish..!
BTW, ALL my thoughts are my own. (Who else's
would they be???)

B-man

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Steve_Ed Ex Member	Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli Reply #9 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 11:15pm Chumley, what do you want me to say? I can not force you to be happy but I can accept you for who you are.
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blink

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Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli
Reply #10 - Feb 17^th, 2007 at 11:39pm

"At the same time, I don't want to have to be changed into
someone totally FOREIGN to who I am, as this would be
necessary for me to "enjoy" eternal consciousness, THAT
I know for a fact."

Sorry, Chum. I just don't buy that. Change is change is change. Anyone who refuses to ever change is basically saying, just brick me up with cement into that wall over there and let me crumble into dust. Sure, someone might be willing to do it....

but change is just the way of things. You're basically saying, hey, someone murder me. That's just the opposite of saying, hey, I'm going to off myself.

I don't know anyone willing to do the job.

There are lots of times I have a terrible day and think, what a wasted day. Sometimes I look in the mirror and go, who is that person and why the heck is she still around?

But, help is always nearby. We can sleep and sleep and when we wake up it's a new day after all.

love, blink

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augoeideian Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 958 South Africa Gender:	Re: What RULE, necessitates an inescapable afterli Reply #11 - Feb 19^th, 2007 at 10:46am lol Grizzly Grimley Chumley What about ... it's a CHALLENGE?!
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