A NEGLECTED BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE ON THE CAPACITY OF OUR DECEASED LOVED ONES to MONITOR OUR SPIRITUAL PROGRESS

Thank you, Vikingsgal.  The question of whether the righteous dead can monitor the spiritusl progress of the living is addressed by a neglected affirmation of the ancient Apostles' Creed: "I believe in the communion of saints."  This doctrine extends the gaze and ministry of deceased saints beyond the boundaries of Heaven.  The doctrine finds eloquent biblical expression in Hebrews 12:1:

"Therefore, SINCE WE ARE SURROUNDED BY SUCH A GREAT CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."

The Greek 'martus" (= "witness") implies the sense of "spectator".  This nuance is clear from Hebrews' only other reference to witnesses (10:28).  As one Commentary on Hebrews puts it,

"`Witnesses' does not mean `spectators,' but those who have borne witness to the truth, or those enumerated in chapter 11.  Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principle idea.  The writer's picture is that of an arena in which the Christians...are contending in a race, while the vast host of the [deceased] heroes of faith...watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid."  

Jesus stresses the intense awareness and emotional involvement of the righteous dead in our spiritual progress: "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who don't need to repent (Luke 15:7)."  This saying leaves unclear whether it is angels or saints who are rejoicing.  But His ensuing comment makes it clear that He has deceased saints in mind: "I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of angels or God over one sinner who repents (15;10)."  Here it is apparently not the angels who rejoice, but deceased humans dwelling in the angels' presence.  

The righteous dead continue to promote our spiritual welfare.  They are aware of our suffering and intercede for us that God may establish His justice on earth (Revelation 6:9-10).  The intercessory work of the righteous is implied by the poetic visionary image of Revelation 5:8:  "...the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb [= Christ].  Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints."  In other words, the righteous dead are in some way involved in the success of our intercessory prayers.

Discarnate saints can intervene at crucial points in history.  A Jewish historical text in the Catholic Bible describes the role of a high priest and the prophet Jeremiah (both deceased) in assisting Jewish freedom fighters in their successful attempt to liberate Israel from the occupying Syrian Greek armies (2 Maccabees 15:11-16).  Belief in this type of discarnate human intervention prompts some at Christ's cross to muse: "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him (Matthew 27:9)."  Moses and Elijah materialize in the presence of Peter, James, and John to discuss Jesus' imminent fulfillment of His redemptive mission (Luke 9:30-31).  

In Matthew Jesus teaches that "the kingdom of God HAS COME NEAR (10:7) and the kingdom of God HAS COME UPON YOU (12:28)."  In Aramaic the word for "kingdom" means "reign" and "realm".  In other words, Jesus means that the heavenly dimensions cam become accessible to you.  So Moses and Elijah return from the kingdom of God to converse on a mountain with a transfigured Jesus in front of 3 of His disciples.  

Traditional Christan angelology has discouraged many believers from investigating the implications of the ongoing involvement of our loved ones in our lives.  True, the Bible generally treats angels as a nonhuman species.  But even the presumed role of guardian angels need not preclude an analogous role for discarnate human helpers and our dead loved ones.  Besides, in both Hebrew and Greek the word "angel" merely means "messenger" and there are several classes of angels.  Furthermore, Acts 12:15 probably implies that deceased saints can qualify as one class of angel.  

The setting is an urgent prayer meeting in the house of Mary, the mother of Mark, who wrote the second New Testament Gospel.  The apostle James has just been executed by Herod and Peter has also been arrested and scheduled for execution.   But Peter is more fortunate.  He is rescued by an angelically induced earthquake and races to Mary's  house.  When Rhoda answers the door, she freaks out, leaves him standing there, and rushes to tell the others.  They react incredulously:

"`You're out of your mind,' they told her.  When she kept insisting that is was so, they said,  `It must be his angel.'"

They intially seem to assume that the Peter lookalike must be an executed Peter's spirit.  If so, then they deem him to qualify now as an angel.  In other words, a discarnate Peter can now visit them as an angel and reassure them that he is alive and well beyond the grave.  Of course, they soon  learn that Peter is still very much physically alive.  

On this interpretation, the dead are quite capable of monitoring the living immdiately after their death.  The Bible does not address our issue of postmortem memory loss, but seems to assume that this problem poses no permanent barrier for ADC contact.

Don

Hey Don,

If you're going to resurrect a thread from 2006, could you at least also post the link to which the initial post in this thread refers?  There appears to be a Grandad thread Deanna shared back then and Bruce had responded to...correct?  Please share the link so that not only the newbies but also us oldies can see so we can know what prompted you to begin this conversation in the first place.

Thanks

Great, thanks.   

I agree with Fontana that genuine contact seems the most natural explanation for the best of mental mediumship.  But even these cases cannot override the negative evidence--e. g. the exposure of Leonora Piper and Blanche Cooper's channeling.  Both mediums strike me as more gifted than any modern mediums.  Piper's confidence in the genuineness of her channeling was rightly shattered.  Also, the experiences of Gasson and and Michaelson are strong cautionary tales, especially when considered in the light of the long history of the identification of the medium's contact as a demon or a god.   Swedenborg is IMO the greatest astral adept ever, and he warns of how sinisterly skilllful malevolent discarnate humans are at spirit impersonation.

heisenberg,

Another crucial issue is postmortem memory.  Swedenborg discovers that the memory of the long deceased is generally dormant so that they can progress unfettered by ties to their earthly past.  Only by occasional divine discretion is their earth memory allowed to reactivate.  OBE adept Robert Bruce independently confirms this claim by discovering the inability of deceased spirits to recall spirit planes from which they have descended to greet arriving loved ones.  This creates problems for the medium's assumption that she can channel the deceased to communicate with chatty ease the details of their earth life.

recoverer,

As you know, I don't think any modern adept even comes close to the quality of Swedenborg's verifications.  Refresh my memory about your beef with Robert Bruce.  Why did he have to be lying about the astral encounter with Sai Baba?  Could he not have been deceived by wishful thinking or a spirit impersonator?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that your argument that RB was lying was partly based on Sai Baba's sexual misconduct.   If so, why do you assume that one's ability to project astral visions of oneself depends on our idea of commendable character?  I remind you that Gandhi slept naked with several teenage virgins (not his wife), but claimed he had no sex with them.  I don't approve of that behavior, but I admire Gandhi as in many ways a holy man. 

It also strikes me as puzzling that channeled entities won't answer time-based questions like this: What were the last few activities you participated in before  channeling yourself to me?  I'm not satisfied by the reply that such a question cannot be answered because the deceased is outside of time.  Even if that were true, the deceased should be able to offer some sort of clarifying comments (analogous to Swedenborg's) about their life on the other side.

Don

Don:

I don't dismiss the possibility that a deceptive being might've appeared to Robert Bruce with the image of Sai Baba, but there is more to it than that. Once Robert reached the point where he could no longer defend Sai Baba against accusations of being a child molestor, instead of saying that Sai Baba isn't an Avatar (incarnation of God), he defended Sai Baba's child molesting in more than one way.

He said things such as the actions of Avatars are mysterious.  That the boys Sai Baba had sex with consented to have sex with him.  He also defended Sai Baba's actions in other ways, I don't remember the details. It is very possible that Robert defended Sai Baba in this way because he didn't want to have explain how a non-Avatar materialized before him as a being of light.

Sai Baba isn't the only bogus Avatar Robert promoted on his site. He also promoted a Da Free John book, and Da Free John was one of the most scandolous American gurus there has been. He claimed that no other person before him has been a more significant manifestation of God, and none will ever surpass him. He claimed that a day will come when all of the slugs of this World follow him. He claimed that when he dies he will be resurected. This didn't happen. Here is a video of Da. Perhaps Robert should've done a little more research before promoting such a guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks6fXVeE-5g

I also don't buy Robert's story about how he received a demon destroying sword. Going by my experiences and the experiences of others, the way to deal with unfriendly entities is to send them love. I do not believe that light workers seek to destroy unfriendly entities. Rather, they try to help them evolve.

Regarding channeling, you know from past conversations that I'm not a big fan. When it comes to the medium form of channeling, some mediums are fake. Some might receive information from deceptive beings. However, this doesn't mean that there aren't any mediums who are genuine. I believe that many people have been helped by genuine mediums. In some cases they were helped with their grief. Therefore, I believe there are some mediums that provide a service.

Berserk2 wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:40pm:

ottawa1, are you a troll?