Dora and Justin,

A few things I wanted to mention in response to some things you have said.

First, I am not arguing that we have no free will.  As I have said before, we have some free will while in the physical body but it is not absolute, because it is conditioned by a body and brain of flesh, which is programmed with animal instincts, genetic tendencies, memories, etc.  The challenge of living in a body is to learn how to increase the power of your free will, a spiritual faculty, over the power of your body, so that you will not be ruled by the body/brain system but more by your own voluntary willpower.

Second, it is possible that free will is absolute when the spirit is not connected to a body, although I still am inclined to reject such an idea of absolute human free will because I believe in God and higher powers who impose their will on us to some extent, for our own good.  But, I will agree that we have significantly more free will while outside the body than when we are in a body.

Third, I think it is important to realize that we are not our mind.  The mind is something that is part of us, but when our body dies, a large part of our mind dies with it because the mind is very strongly influenced by the physical brain.  Anyone who has studied psychology or neurology knows this.  What aspects of mind remain after death, I would think are the parts that are of the spirit and pure consciousness, rather than a lot of personality traits and tendencies that were part of a life in a particular physical body and conditioned by experiences in that body.

Fourth, I am surprised that anyone would claim that they never experience things that are not because of their own choice.  If one believes all events, including "accidents," are pre-determined by one's own choice before being born, fine.  I don't totally agree with that, but I can accept it as a legitimate point of view for consideration.  But not everything can be planned.  Maybe determined by the matter and energy in the universe operating according to physical laws, but not necessarily planned by human choice.  Dora, are you saying you never get thoughts in your head that you did not specifically choose to have?  If that is true, you must be a Buddhist master superior even to Siddharta Gautama himself!  Even The Buddha did not have 100% voluntary control over his own mental life, though he was probably one of the most self-controlled people in human history.  The reason is because we are physical animals with a physical brain, and we have instincts like all other animals which we are not choosing.  Just by being a human, for example, you have a sex drive.  For example, every time a man gets aroused by looking at a naked woman and gets an erection, he does not choose to have that erection.  It just happens because of instinct programmed into the brain.  So it is obvious from ordinary human experience that free will is not absolute, especially when it comes to our thoughts.  That's just common sense.  By being incarnated into a body, a person is relinquishing some of their free will -- probably in an attempt to have a challenge for spiritual growth that would be impossible without the limitations and proclivities of a physical body/brain vessel.

Freebird

Freebird,

My answer to Justin  apply to your comments also, but I also have a question for you....

How are your beliefs working for you?

Are those beliefs help to balance your inner and outer self, your beliefs make you a happy, healty person who is able to "celebrate" what suppose to be the biggest "gift" from the big guy, your life?
If it does more power to you, if not then you might consider  that  change perceptions require change of beliefs, and that will change your life outcome.

Dora,

A quick question for you:  Can you create an object to appear out of thin air and appear in your hand?  For example, can you think about an apple and literally think it into existence, so that your empty hand now contains an apple?  Can you look at an object and cause it to move, through telekinesis?  Can you walk on water?

If you cannot do things like this, even if you try very hard, then how can you continue believing in absolute free will without embracing an absurd logical contradiction?

I have tried such experiments before, and it didn't work.  I know other people who have also tried to perform miracles and failed too.  That's one good reason why most people realize absolute free will is false.

I have read NDEs in which a person can do miraculous things once freed from the body, that when we are in the spirit we can actually create things through the power of our thoughts.  Perhaps that really is possible, when the spirit is not subject to the restrictions of physical life.  But in the flesh, hardly anyone can do this.  Jesus was able to, and probably a few other gurus and prophets in history.  But the physical laws of the universe preclude the possibility of absolute free will for people living in physical bodies, unless they are very rare and extremely advanced souls that have superior powers to defy nature.

I guess what I don't understand is how you can maintain your belief system when it completely contradicts all ordinary human life experience.  Doesn't that create a terrible inner conflict in your mind, and a constant sense of insecurity that your whole worldview is based on a shaky foundation?

Freebird

    Hi Dora,

   Seeing as i'm just a lowly human, apparently I need my illusionary dualistic belief systems, but once again i do believe you have misinterpreted some of my beliefs.

  Have you ever seen "What the Bleep Do We Know?",    
I saw it, enjoyed it, and agree with everything in it, especially the part that we create our own realities.

  No, i do not believe in "higher" or "lower"--don't believe i wrote such, but i do believe in faster and slower vibrations.   I believe as Bruce apparently believes and as he stated in the quotes of that article that I posted that one gets closer or farther away from graduation according to how much one puts forth and to what degree, expresses PUL.

  This seems to me to have been the standard throughout the ages Dora, way before Seth came along.   I believe Seth is valuable in explaining certain aspects of how energy works, and gives good tips in recognizing the fact that we do have choices, that we do create our own realities etc. 

  Bruce talks quite a bit of PUL, and yet you read or have read his stuff?

   Non-duality to me, doesn't mean that a person can't recognize differences such as fast vibration vs low vibration, or any comparitive constructs.   I take the ultimate view that we are all "Masters",  but my non-dualistic beliefs allow for both either and or, that we are masters all connected, but also masters in the making each vibrating at various patterns and speeds of vibration.   It seems to me that your beliefs that things must be either--or, is true duality.  The eye of the paradox, the relative universe....    Also since i've been here, it seems that you "come" out and post mostly to point out differences, to debate, to argue, etc..--this to me is duality in action, whereas the "master in action" (imo) may recognize differences in perception but perhaps rather looks for and stresses the similarities--the Unity. 


   Dora, when did I ever on this site refer to love as an emotion?

  You're very right, you can never really detach yourself from yourself otherwise you might not exist as an individual essence, but in my own life i have had very self-attached reactions, and very self-detached reactions (and everything in between) where it felt as if I stepped outside of myself and watched self pass by, usually for the self perceived benefit of another.  I know some here might relate to a similar concept though they might word it differently.   This is as good a definition for PUL as i can come up with, other than a knowingness that all is connected.

  Dora, i'm well aware that these are just my beliefs, and ususally say as such.  But,  I do believe there is an ultimate standard of a sort.   Is there such a thing as evolution, does a soul evolve, grow, etc, if such is the case than may it not be to far out from left-field to consider that there is some kind of standard against which growth takes place--regardless of the wisdom of Seth?   I don't believe in ulitmate right or wrongs for everyone, or good and evil but rather it personal thing, a personal growth for each soul in its relative relationship to its Maker.

  You wrote, "Why in the heck I would want to walk on water?"

   Why not?  Could be fun?  That really wasn't the point anyways was it?   I was callling you on your bluff--as stated in your beliefs--your beliefs, your perceptions create your own reality correct? 

  I believe it is possible for anyone to walk on water, once again relatively speaking, but i believe it takes two things, belief and za missing ingredient which is  never really missing, but rather requires self to open up too.   This and other things are something that certain individuals have expressed in various ages--not the least of which the Buddha, Krishna, Yeshua, Dionysus, Osiris, etc................    Heck all Bob's future buddies of 3500 collectively express it as does all his past buddies of a million or so years ago.

  My point is, what keeps you or I from expressing such mastery of reality if such is possible as others have demonstrated?  imo, it has everything to do with being aligned with the fastest collective vibration.  Can i just convince myself i am, perhaps in a sense, but i still need to put it forth towards every other aspect of creation.  Otherwise, whats the whole point of retreivals and other such service work...isn't this love in action depending on the spirit in which someone does it.

  Or to quote Alysia in her wisdom (just my belief..sheesh do i have to say that everytime--i think its understood by now)  "It has everything to do with PUL."

   

Justin,

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YES I have, and also attended in his worksop, and based on his technique I have had and HAVE numerous subjective projections, and retrievals as well.

BUT, as you  me and everyone else  INTERPRET their own experiences, what is ALWAYS colored by  our  own perception and beliefs.

My own understandings/interpretations  different then yours or Bruces, or Cacey, or Rosie, or whoever you want to name because as their experiences true to them or you, so as mine true to me.

I'm not a follower or worship anyone, one of the most value of Seth, Elias, and somewhat Bruce's that they emphesize the trust in  your own self, your own impressions, your own individual understanding which you and I as everyone else do, according to our awareness...


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Again you calling something as my bluff what is based on your understanding or should say lack of it, how I understand and how I  apply that yes I create all of my reality.

Then again to understand that I had to be able to understand what perception, and beliefs really are And that was my interest, regardless what anyone else think or say sarcastically or otherwise..
 
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HOW in the earth you know how is my reality or what I create, your knowledge about mine is based one what?

I don't see any benefit to either of us to continue this conversation, because our fundemental difference in understanding make it pointless...

I respect your beliefs, and expect no less from you....

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1.  I am not judging, I am attempting to have an intellectual conversation, which involves analyzing and evaluating different points of view in an attempt to find truth.

2.  There is no such thing as "my reality" and "your reality."  There is only one objective reality, and all else is personal imagination or interpretation, rather than reality.

3.  My reference to inner mental conflicts was not about me.  You completely misinterpreted what I was saying.  In fact, I feel much more mentally secure because of my belief, based on ample evidence all around me, that human free will in this world is not absolute, and therefore when bad things happen to us we do not necessarily need to feel guilty all the time because sometimes things that happen are not our own choices.  The point I was making is that people who believe in absolute free will must feel an inner mental tension because every time things happen to them that they cannot control, or they find they are unable to do something they wanted to do, their worldview is fundamentally challenged by such experiences.

4.  It is true that I do not know what is your reality, as you said, because you still have not answered my questions.  Are you, or are you not, able to exercise absolute free will to do anything you desire, without regard for the laws and limitations of the physical universe?  If not, then your stated worldview is false.

5.  As for your worldview, I would be interested to hear what are the logical and evidential underpinnings for it, as you understand it.  You have only stated beliefs and asserted them as truth, without providing any logical arguments or scientific evidence to support your worldview.  But, as a basic feature of your worldview, it appears you are not interested in what is actually true in an objective sense, only in what is "true" within the confines of your own personal sphere of reality, a.k.a. a solipsistic philosophy of life.  That is unfortunate.

6.  I would suggest, if you are ever interested in having a rational discussion about issues such as free will or any other spiritual or philosophical issue, in which people may learn from one another in an open minded search for truth, you should consider adopting a less confrontational stance and refrain from personalizing the issue.  For example, instead of responding to the legitimate questions and ideas I raised on the topic, you chose to write a one-liner in bold type that does not actually clarify what you believe and what reasoning supports it.  Perhaps a different approach would be more beneficial and productive.

At this point, seeing that we practically live in different universes and cannot find any common ground on which to even begin a process of intellectual give-and-take, it would probably be fruitless for us to continue.

You have a right to your beliefs and I have a right to mine, and maybe that's all we'll ever agree on in this lifetime.    Of course, one never knows; perhaps a few years from now, one or both of us will have had new experiences that will totally change the way we think.  The important thing, IMO, is always to be open to the fact that there is a larger Truth out there, beyond ourselves, waiting to be discovered.  I consider it unfortunate that even this basic idea is not a value we currently share.

Peace,
Freebird

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As I have said, I would like to understand your point of view, if you are willing to explain the justification for it rather than just assert it.  It's hard to comprehend something that is left unexplained, especially when it is a very unusual and radical idea such as your stated belief that you create all your reality.  I am always interested to hear why people believe as they do on important issues.  Feel free to explain your viewpoint if you wish.  Probably we won't see eye to eye, but something could be gained for both of us if you choose to set forth the reasoning behind your belief that you are 100% in control of every aspect of the reality you experience.  There must be some kind of philosophical explanation for this idea you hold, because it contradicts ordinary observation about life in this world and therefore there must be a deeper reason for how you can believe this to be true.

If you choose not to explain because you feel I would not get it anyway, that's fine too... your call.  But I have a degree in philosophy so it's not hard for me to understand viewpoints when they are presented and justified coherently, even if I don't agree with them.

Peace,
Freebird

Jean,

Thanks for your explanation.  A lot of what you said makes sense to me, and I agree to some extent.  However, I think it would be more accurate to say that we all have the potential to be creators of all our reality, but that only a few of us (e.g. Jesus) are already capable of using this power to the fullest while existing in the physical body.  For analogy, everyone is potentially capable of bench-pressing 300 pounds, but only a few people have done the intensive training necessarily to actually accomplish it.  I think my view that life in the physical is a training ground for developing spiritual power fits nicely with the view that we are potential creators of all our reality, but not with the view that we already are.

Freebird