Today, I awoke with a series of questions nagging to be answered. I apologize in advance for the abstract nature of the questions, and all opinions are appreciated.

1. Which idea, free will or determinism, constitutes our existence? I have seen various mentions of free will throughout the forum posts, but I have several hangups about the notion as a whole.
2. If free will exists, does it conflict with the omniscience of God/the Source/ the Creator?
3.If time exists is a nonlinear form, how does this interact with the concept of free will?
4. Building on question 3, if free will does indeed exist, and time occurs in a nonlinear fashion (i.e. all time exists simultaneously), is it possible to explore "past" scenarios and take them in a different direction than the originally recorded outcome? what are the effects, if any, of this exploration?
5. (this ones a bit long.) According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe has 3 possible fates, all based on the density parameter of the universe as a whole. There is the Big Crunch, the Big Freeze, and the Big Rip, and all of the fates result in an ultimate end. What effect, if any, does this notion have on the Afterlife? (I have focused in on the Big Bang Theory due to its wide acceptance, but the same question arises with practically any universal theory.)

I'd like to add that to say that we can't think anew now, is the same as saying we don't exist now.

At any given point in time, we live in the present moment, or the "Now."  We sometimes worry about the future.  When we do this, we project probabilities and worry about a future Now, but do so usually at a cost - the loss of presence and attentiong or fulfillment in the present.  Most people don't live in the Now - they merely act out of fear or planning for a future which does not exist or fear from an event from the past. 

The past is merely residual memory traces of what we were.  It is not in the current Now.  And if we dwell on it too much, again we lose the present - the here and Now.  Revisiting agonizing traumas or betrayal, etc. stops us and binds us with chains of our own making from appreciating the current moment. 

This is not to say that we should not be mindful of our history, or the possibilities, but simply that if we focus on the Now, and the present, we will be more in touch with who we are and in general much happier people.  Buddhism, and other great religions often see grief and strife coming from people living in the past or the future, and losing the present in the process. 

A man/woman works 12 hour days for years, saying "it will be worth it when I retire."  All the while, their mind's eye is focused on that future and not the Now.  If they die suddenly of an accident or heart attack, imagine their dismay.  "But wait!  I had so much I wanted to do!"  But why weren't they doing it?  Because they weren't living in the Now where we always really are.


M

Another way of saying this is that we always live moment to moment, so our decisions always take place "now."

Yvvak wrote on Mar 10^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

Honestly, Boheric, I don't know.  My feeling is that our level of consciousness is greatly enhanced after shedding the physical body.  The human mind marks of time using the rotation of the earth/sun, clocks, day/night, etc. along with physical signs of aging.  Yet our reality is that the real "us" is living in an ever-present, whilel retaining residual traces of a previous state (our past) and anticipating outcomes (the future).  One New Age author, Eckhart Tolle wrote an intriguing book about this called "The Power of Now," which I recently read.  It is stimulating, enlightening, direct, and disturbing all at once (to my read at least).   I disagree with Tolle's making the human mind the "enemy" but that would take us off track here.

I don't know how things tie in together when we've died in terms of what are knowns and unknowns.  I assume that in the afterlife we move from one state of being to the next and that is our time equivalent.  I think it is difficult to comprehend it with the constraints of our current references while in a body.

Those are interesting questions. I can't say that I have a coherent response, as it appears that our perception of time and of free will varies, if you go by "near death" experiences, and also if you go by results of afterlife exploration such as retrievals.

During some near death experiences people are given a choice between at least two different timelines, one in which they don't return to earth life, and another in which they do, in which specific offspring might be born, of which the near death experiencer receives a kind of precognition which might be so specific as to name the sex of the baby -- yet to be born.

This indicates to me that multiple timelines are, at times, visible in the afterlife, and that we do, indeed, at times, have free will to choose. This is beyond our ability to understand here. We are conditioned by our experiences here, so it seems illogical to us that both conditions can exist at the same time.

In addition, if you look at retrievals, it is clear that some "stuck" people seem to be experiencing their own "time loops" which may differ from what the retriever perceives. The retriever can simply "show up" sometimes and be able to distract the person enough for them to move on, in whatever way that works.

Frankly, I think there will be a lot of "ahas" going on, when we figure it out, eventually, after crossing over. What if all eventualities, all possibilities, were a given, something already available for us to choose from in our lifetimes? Wouldn't it be interesting, to a highly intelligent being, to watch which ones we choose at certain times and how that relates to every other choice made by other beings?

A huge, multi-layer chess board. If that is the case, we could hardly be blamed for our choices, as they were already there, but we might certainly have some interest in how it all played out when we return to our greater being in the great beyond which awaits us.

I made my previous statement knowing that, indisputably, there have been times in my life when I felt no sense of "choice" available to me. It seemed as if my own reaction to events was, not only incomprehensible to me, but not one I "willed" to happen. I can only compare the force of events to a tide of events, with myself being pulled by what I can compare to gravity. When the force of gravity is strong enough, a person cannot simply ignore it, or act in a way contrary to its strength. I can say with no hesitation that certain events have occurred outside of what I would have chosen--not in any possible way would they have occurred at all had I actually "chosen" the path taken.

Therefore, I cannot say that I believe that we entirely have "free will" -- as there are circumstances in life which will not only confound a person, but even cause one to contradict all that he or she once knew as true. It is because of this that I cannot believe in any kind of instrinsic fairness to the concept of hell. Only that, eventually, we would all be confined to one, every single one of us, if allowed to live long enough to disobey our own "best" principles. It makes no sense to me for humans to be punished in any way for living here on earth as humans. If anything, we should be rewarded greatly. This is no easy place to live a life.

Great post, Kathy.  I am not certain what to think about the place of the past and future, as I am still wrapping my head around the ever-present.  From a different angle or point of view, evolution really does occur in the ever present, eventhough the soul's consciousness may feel that the impetus for change comes from a past experience or a desire or worry for the future.

But to hear Tolle describe the NOW - and what a lot of Eastern mystics assume - is that the ever-present is all that is real, whereas the past is like a residue from a prior state and the future is a probability that has not actually taken a course or form.  To this way of thinking, an enlightened being could live in the ever-present with out requiring the past or future to obtain spiritual growth. 

I have heard it said that immediately when we leave the body (at physical death) there is a point early on where we experience a unity with God.  It is a type of temporary bliss.  Most people are then tempted in other directions by ego, the false need to feel separate, and by fear and desire.   In Tibet, the living read the Tibetan Book of the Dead aloud to try to convince the deceased person not to leave the light and unity with God so they can get off the wheel of incarnation.  An interesting idea. 

So, I'm not sure how I feel about TC's idea about linnear time past/future being necessary to "get it right" for spiritual evolution.  There is something annoying about the whole reincarnation process when it is seen as a necessary engine to "get it right" and take the right actions with our memory wiped clean.  Hogwash.  I don't buy into that right now.  (I for one, am not sure I'd ever wish to incarnate again.  The idea of a panel of elders convincing me to do so, planning it, etc. seems like bunk.  And the idea of being tricked into an incarnation as an inevitable fate, if we are not highly enough evolved, sounds even worse).

I haven't explored Tolle's idea of the "Now" enough, but I do like it in it's simplicity.  The point of it all seems to be present in the moment expressing love, a conscious being, who is  part of God, yet perceiving as a unique individual. 

M

Hi Albert,

I do agree that learning can come from seeing what doesn't work, but the real learning on a soul-level is not an intellectual process.  For that reason, I am certain that past and future are helpful or important concepts. 

If our true nature is revealed, so that we feel "in the moment," if we connect to others with love, then we lose the illusion of us being isolated and separate from God and everything else - we are part of a whole, yet we are still ourselves - a paradox, but a blissful one.  For those living in the Now, there is no need to "get it right" in the earth school.  You've graduated.  You may still be in a body, but you aren't bound by opinions, earthly egos, or attachments.  You love, and care for others, but you are not attached via your ego.

Hello Doc:

I believe that there are people who claim to live in the now that haven't dealt with their underlying issues and psychological conditioning.

Instead they'll tell themselves "I only need to be concerned with what happens now, the past and future don't exist."

Underlying problematic beliefs and psychological conditioning aren't overcome that easily.  Some might go away without special attention, but many require attention and an effective way of overcoming them.

This is why I earlier stated that "now" feels better to me now than it did 30 years ago. Because I've dealt with some of the thought patterns that limited me I am able to more completely experience my inner Self and its connection to Source. I am able to experience more love and peace.

If people overdo "I am not my mind" or "only now matters," they aren't likely to get around to dealing with underlying negative psychological conditioning. I am aware of people who haven't tried to take care of their negative psychological conditioning because they instead take a "I am not my mind/only now" approach.

Somewhere within the Power of Now Tolle states that it doesn't make sense to deal with one's fears on a one by one basis because they are endless. I don't agree. I've found that it has benefited me a lot to deal with some fear-based thought patterns. We don't have an endless number of fears. It isn't an all or nothing process. For spiritual growth, it is usually a mistake to look for quick fix solutions.

Just as honeymoon periods don't tend to last, quick fix spiritual solutions don't tend to last.

I'd like to add that I don't believe that a person has to get it completely right in order to avoid reincarnation. Spirit growth is possible in the spirit World.

Here is a link to a post by somebody claims to have known Tolle well. If it is accurate, did the key spiritual experience he wrote about effect him in a positive way as completely as some people believe?

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13368296/fpart/all/vc/1








DocM wrote on Mar 11^th, 2014 at 4:23pm:

Hi Kathy,

You ask why I wouldn't want to reincarnate in the earth life system?  A great question.  For a number of reasons.  Firstly, to my understanding, it is a game.  I don't need to be fooled and I don't want to wipe my memory to start over again.  Any new life will, by necessity accumulate fear and ego - we all do, when we are raised as young children.  If I can rid myself of selfish egoistic thinking in this life, why start over as a baby, and wipe my memory only to accrue new fear and baggage to work through all over again?  Why come to a spiritual awakening, and then start over again, without the certainty of having the same insights in a new earthly life?  I don't like the subterfuge and the hiding from my true self that is involved in incarnating on earth.  To some extent, it is a false game I don't think I'd want to play.  The separation into a physical body apart from God is a false one.  The ego and fear is created to cope with living here is something that must be shed.   

I don't buy the idea that we must reincarnate to learn spiritual lessons and evolve more quickly than we would do in the afterlife.  I believe that the main spiritual lesson about love and our true nature can be realized in anyone's life or in the afterlife. 

I would return here to protect or mentor another.  In fact, I actually think I may have incarnated in this life to teach and watch over my son, Joshua.  It is a "gut" feeling.  So yes, there may be compelling reasons to incarnate out of love and compassion.  But in general, I would find it disturbing to imagine reincarnating for countless lifetimes without knowing that I could carry with me the spiritual knowledge about my true being that I now have. 

Funny thing is, I am overall a happy person - certainly not depressed.  I enjoy life overall, and am trying to live in the present fully and completely.  But once you shatter your preconceived beliefs about who you are, it sometimes changes your inclination to play the game.

M

I would have to say that I am in the camp that would not want to return to the earth. I do believe that a person can realize a state of being which understands that it doesn't really matter what kind of body or personality that they cloak themselves with while wandering around on this planet -- the life force, the basic reality of being, for each of us, the core of our being is the same.

It is the same, whether we are a human or whether we are a dog or whether we are an insect.

It is not that I don't value my experience as "me" in this life. I do. But, I think there is so much emphasis placed on the "me-ness" of it all, and it is clear that the most expansive states of being cause a person to let most of that "me-ness" drop away. Emotions which arise in the most expansive states of being that I have experienced are just that -- states of being which are disconnected from the distinct "me" that I create here on earth.

Of course, because I have spent most of my waking life here (smile) I am very attached to this earth and want the best for it and its inhabitants. But, another life here? No. For all of its beauty and complexity, its vastness and its ruggedness, its precious details and intertwined relationships....no.

I do not consider this earth to be any kind of playground, and its "lessons" are beyond painful to its individuals. Now, if someone else would like to return here, hoping to become an Olympic skier who never becomes covered in an avalanche or who never runs into a tree or who never falls and breaks every limb in their body, be my guest....(smile).

Doc:

In order to make a point I am going to use an extreme example.

Say some people spoke of what happened during the holocaust. Unless a person was a part of it he wouldn’t fully understand what it was like to be involved with the holocaust.  As some people have done, he might not take such accounts seriously no matter how well experiencers report what they experienced.

I was involved with nondual teachings in the 1980s. I became very familiar with what some people who have claimed to overcome their ego are actually like. A number of people from the group I was involved with, after they saw what the guru was all about and had left the group, wrote about what they had come to understand so others would benefit.

A person who is still with the group included these words with his reply: “Rumors might better be sent to the National Enquirer.”  These words remind me of your words: “The link to Tolle's former friend appears to be hearsay from a "former friend" who really doesn't say anything substantive, and ends her talk by saying Tolle is rather homely, likely lonely, etc.  Her comments therefore have no impact on me.”

The people from my former group wrote what they wrote not because they were grudge holding malcontents, but because out of love they wanted to try to help other people. Yet, some people are quick to dismiss what they said--this is sad. Perhaps it is also sad that you were so quick to dismiss what Wanderer77 had to say about Eckhart. I can’t say one hundred percent for certain that she speaks the truth, but it feels as if she was trying to be helpful. It seems as if the people from my former group were helpful because Satsang attendance for that group is now much smaller than it used to be. I feel much thanks towards anybody who tries to help others become aware of people and Sources that mislead.

If you had experience with this sort of thing you would probably feel differently and not be so quick to dismiss the possible loving efforts of another.

Since we have been discussing Tolle recently, I looked at my copy of Power of Now last night. When I read it before, I read only the first 99 pages because it didn’t seem worthwhile to go further. Within the margins I wrote notes when I found something that didn’t sound correct. I don’t have an exact count, but within 99 pages I wrote about 70 notes.

It is ironic that Tolle speaks about being in the now and not being influenced by the past, because he is clearly influenced by Eastern teachings and ACIM despite their inaccuracies and shortcomings.

I brought my copy of Power of Now to work today (paperback edition xiii).

Regarding whether it is okay for me to be critical of Tolle, he says the below on page xv of the Preface to the New Edition:

“This does not mean, of course, that everyone responds favorably to the book [Power of Now]. In many people, as well as in most of the political and economic structures and the greater part of the media, the old consciousness is still deeply entrenched. Anyone who is still totally identified with the voice in their head – the stream of involuntary and incessant thinking – will invariably fail to see what the Power of Now is all about.”

Some people might read the above and conclude that if they don’t go along with what Tolle says in the Power of Now that they don’t get it.  Years ago, I used believe many of the things Tolle states, so it wouldn’t be accurate for him to say that since I don’t now agree with everything he says, I fail to see what the Power of Now is all about.

The thing is, a person (a Soul) can believe just about anything. A person can believe that he isn’t the mind even though he uses that part of his Self to do the believing. He can believe that he doesn’t exist as an individual being even though he couldn’t have such a belief if it wasn’t for the fact that he does exist.

Therefore, someone like Tolle can believe that he has an accurate understanding of what spiritual truth is, even though he doesn’t have an accurate understanding. A key thing he does is use his conscious mind to ignore the parts of his mind he doesn’t want to be aware of.

On page 93 (a Chapter called “The State of Presence”) a questioner asks about “presence.” Tolle says, “Try a little experiment. Close your eyes and say to yourself: “I wonder what my next thought is going to be.” Then become very alert and wait for the next thought. Be like a cat watching a mouse hole. What thought it going to come out of the mouse hole? Try it now.” A pause followed by “Well?”

The Questioner: “I had to wait quite a long time before a thought came in.”

Tolle: “Exactly. As long as you are in a state of intense presence, you are free of thought. You are still highly alert. The instant your conscious attention sinks below a certain level, thought rushes in. The mental noise returns; the stillness is lost. You are back in time.”

It seems to me Tolle is saying that thought has to come to an end in order to experience divine truth (“the mind is an enemy thing” you acknowledged on some of your posts). My experience has shown me that our thoughts don’t have to stop in order for us to experience divine truth. Consider my Night in Heaven experience that I have spoken of. I felt as if I was with the light. I could understand things according to Universal Mind even though I could think in my old way at the same time. I’ve found the same to be true at other times when I’ve understood deeper truth. I figure God doesn’t have to bring his mind to a halt in order to understand something.

Having a mind that works isn’t a problem. Rather, false concepts and emotional attachments prevent us from being aware of what higher truth is, including the false concept that thought has to stop in order for truth to be revealed.  Also, having the knowledge that our psychological conditioning can limit what we experience can be helpful because such knowledge, which exists in the form of thought, will provide us with motivation to not be limited by our psychological conditioning. (As a side point, the mind of the above questioner probably didn’t come to a complete halt because it was probably thinking something such as “What will my next thought be?”)

Tuning into one’s presence might help a person gain a perspective that will help them get rid of unwanted thought patterns, but I’ve found that most limiting thought patterns have to be examined thoroughly before their false premises can be seen clearly and overcome. Also, as I stated before, the depth for which a person will be able to experience presence will partly be determined by how well he has taken care of limiting thought patterns.

I don’t mean that a person can’t have a loving attitude about life. Also, it is fine to except Now as it is when you are in a circumstance such as being stuck in traffic. However, being at the point where you don’t have any limiting thought patterns isn’t an easy state of being to obtain. If one uses the presence technique to bi-furcate one’s mind too frequently, one might develop the belief that one has gained transcendence over limiting thought patterns.

Regarding Tolle not claiming to be a religious leader, despite what he has or hasn’t claimed, he sure has become a leader for many people, for better or worse.

Just as Christian and Islamic Fundamentalism can exist, so can Non-dual Fundamentalism. After all, as I said earlier, people can believe just about anything.

Seagull:

I know that some people feel as you do. Do as you please. Chances are that you don't need to read some of my posts.

seagull wrote on Mar 12^th, 2014 at 3:17pm:

Hi Roger,

I appreciate your input and your important reminder about the joys of being alive.  I really am grateful for my life and my family.  I also really do have a blessed life, and I am thankful for it.  I think though that no matter how grateful we are, that because of our true spiritual nature, it is the human condition to have a mixture of sadness with the joy.  Sometimes, when I connect with my deeper nature, I do get tired of the game/illusion and the ego and fear that are inherent in being part of spirit in flesh.  I do try to make a positive impact - offering my help whenever I can and what insights I can to both my family and people I see everyday.  But I have seriously considered that coming back to the earth plane may not be so desireable.  Some entire religions (buddhism, hinduism) speak of attaining an enlightenment or Nirvana to break the chain of karma and avoid reincarnation.  It is a difficult set of circumstances to think about, for I do enjoy the human perspective on life, love and morality, and I believe that when our consciousness expands many fold after death, that we may, just might lose some of the "human" perspective with an expanded awareness.  Not sure how I feel about that.

M

Doc:

I get what you're saying. Some Near death experiencers miss what they experienced during their NDE.

I don't believe that we will be completely satisfied inwardly until we obtain union with God and all the Souls that have done so.

We might feel somewhat content at times, but eventually our Soul is going to seek what it is truly satisfying and based on truth rather than temporary states of mind.

It could be that the closer we get to the Union I speak of above, the more we yearn for it, and the less satisfying material-based life in this World seems. This yearning is like an inner compass.

DocM wrote on Mar 12^th, 2014 at 11:48pm:

There you are again, a channel. Doesn't surprise me a bit. I think I'll just leave it at what I said earlier. I've got a lot of better things to do.

Recoverer, I wouldn't bet that some people incarnate just to say to whistle blowers that it could be about the sound of the whistle. Not much of a whistle blower, but http://goo.gl/CBBY9m. Some will probably find that happy sailor annoying too.

Alright everyone, I've come to a conclusion on my debate over free will and determinism, and I think I have a good grasp on time, but one thing still eludes me slightly, and its a simple matter of location. Where do the realms of the Afterlife seem to exist? or more specifically, are these realms contained within our physical universe, or are they located beyond it?

I see, but even now looking at my question I see where i can phrase it better. i guess what i mean is: Are the realms of the afterlife affected by physical laws, such as the Laws of Thermodynamics or the Laws of Conservation of Energy? I guess I asked about their location in regards to the physical universe so that I could grasp if these realms are affected by the physical laws.
recoverer wrote on Mar 14^th, 2014 at 12:51pm:

Boheric writes, Quote:


   No.  There are some laws which are universal and run through both physical and nonphysical levels of consciousness though. 

    One such one, the major one, is the law of like attracts, begets, and resonates with like.  It is confusing on the Earth, because at the same time there is also an apparent or temporary reaction of "opposites attract". 

  In the nonphysical, the above former law of like attracts and begets like becomes extremely, and immediately obvious.  Your vibration, your frequency, or level of consciousness, your spiritual maturity, your degree of attunement to PUL or however you want to put it (different terms for a similar concept) dictates "where" you can "go", but not spatially, but dimensionally or vibrationally.  The individuals you primarily perceive are also on a similar wavelength as yourself.

  You cannot "go" or phase to a consciousness state that is faster vibratory than what you currently consciously exist at a being level.  You can go to states slower vibratory than yours, but not faster vibratory (or, more "expanded"). 

    There are exceptions to the rule.  Sometimes consciousnesses from more expanded states will deliberately temporarily resonate your consciousness to a faster vibration than you would be at normally, so that you get a glimpse, a perception, an experience in more expanded states. Key word is "temporary" though.  To stay focused there, you have to grow to there.  Again, it's more about phasing or shifting vibratory gears so to speak, then going anywhere in a spatial sense.

  Experiences would better teach self these truths though.

Quote:


Why you think anyone here has THE definitive answer is beyond comprehension!  Are you making a joke?

That doesn't stop the specualtion. But see you need a metalanguage to explain the language. or a metaworld to explain the world.
I really think Anita Moorjani's descriptions are useful, not because she has the final answer but because she writes clearly

perhaps it depends on energy..the fundamental unit of existence? ...and frequency. Can things of different frequencies be nested together...like Russioan nested dolls... Then we would all be in the same space, only operating at different frequencies. At least that is one explanation that has been offered (not original with me).

But how would you know you had the right answer??????