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Free Will or Determinism (Read 20911 times)
Yvvak
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Free Will or Determinism
Mar 10th, 2014 at 11:54am
 
Today, I awoke with a series of questions nagging to be answered. I apologize in advance for the abstract nature of the questions, and all opinions are appreciated.

1. Which idea, free will or determinism, constitutes our existence? I have seen various mentions of free will throughout the forum posts, but I have several hangups about the notion as a whole.
2. If free will exists, does it conflict with the omniscience of God/the Source/ the Creator?
3.If time exists is a nonlinear form, how does this interact with the concept of free will?
4. Building on question 3, if free will does indeed exist, and time occurs in a nonlinear fashion (i.e. all time exists simultaneously), is it possible to explore "past" scenarios and take them in a different direction than the originally recorded outcome? what are the effects, if any, of this exploration?
5. (this ones a bit long.) According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe has 3 possible fates, all based on the density parameter of the universe as a whole. There is the Big Crunch, the Big Freeze, and the Big Rip, and all of the fates result in an ultimate end. What effect, if any, does this notion have on the Afterlife? (I have focused in on the Big Bang Theory due to its wide acceptance, but the same question arises with practically any universal theory.)
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recoverer
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #1 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 12:51pm
 
Boheric:

Without getting into the various theories, try to feel for yourself if you have a free will.

If you do this the influences of circumstances and your psychological conditioning might be there, but this doesn't mean you aren't able to make a decision that is based on freedom. Rather, it is a matter of how much you allow yourself to think freely.

The thing is, we always exist "now."  The past and future play a role only to the extent we allow them to.

The more we find where true fullfillment, meaning and truth itself come from, the more we become free of our psychological conditioning and are able to act according to what circumstances require.

Even people who are really caught up in their psychological conditioning have free will. It is just that their conditioning sometimes prevents them from using it in a wise and beneficial way.

Regarding simultaneous time, don't we always exist now?



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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #2 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 12:53pm
 
I'd like to add that to say that we can't think anew now, is the same as saying we don't exist now.
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Yvvak
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #3 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 1:03pm
 
Albert,
The concept of the constant now is a bit confusing for me. Could you help me understand what it means and how the past & future relate to it?
recoverer wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 12:51pm:
Boheric:

Without getting into the various theories, try to feel for yourself if you have a free will.

If you do this the influences of circumstances and your psychological conditioning might be there, but this doesn't mean you aren't able to make a decision that is based on freedom. Rather, it is a matter of how much you allow yourself to think freely.

The thing is, we always exist "now."  The past and future play a role only to the extent we allow them to.

The more we find where true fullfillment, meaning and truth itself come from, the more we become free of our psychological conditioning and are able to act according to what circumstances require.

Even people who are really caught up in their psychological conditioning have free will. It is just that their conditioning sometimes prevents them from using it in a wise and beneficial way.

Regarding simultaneous time, don't we always exist now?




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DocM
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #4 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 2:48pm
 
At any given point in time, we live in the present moment, or the "Now."  We sometimes worry about the future.  When we do this, we project probabilities and worry about a future Now, but do so usually at a cost - the loss of presence and attentiong or fulfillment in the present.  Most people don't live in the Now - they merely act out of fear or planning for a future which does not exist or fear from an event from the past. 

The past is merely residual memory traces of what we were.  It is not in the current Now.  And if we dwell on it too much, again we lose the present - the here and Now.  Revisiting agonizing traumas or betrayal, etc. stops us and binds us with chains of our own making from appreciating the current moment. 

This is not to say that we should not be mindful of our history, or the possibilities, but simply that if we focus on the Now, and the present, we will be more in touch with who we are and in general much happier people.  Buddhism, and other great religions often see grief and strife coming from people living in the past or the future, and losing the present in the process. 

A man/woman works 12 hour days for years, saying "it will be worth it when I retire."  All the while, their mind's eye is focused on that future and not the Now.  If they die suddenly of an accident or heart attack, imagine their dismay.  "But wait!  I had so much I wanted to do!"  But why weren't they doing it?  Because they weren't living in the Now where we always really are.


M
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Yvvak
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #5 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 3:02pm
 
I see, I guess the realization of the past no longer "existing" was just a bit jarring for me. I had never truly considered that what's done is done, and had never before realized the weight carried by each decision. It's still a bit frightening to think about.
DocM wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 2:48pm:
At any given point in time, we live in the present moment, or the "Now."  We sometimes worry about the future.  When we do this, we project probabilities and worry about a future Now, but do so usually at a cost - the loss of presence and attentiong or fulfillment in the present.  Most people don't live in the Now - they merely act out of fear or planning for a future which does not exist or fear from an event from the past. 

The past is merely residual memory traces of what we were.  It is not in the current Now.  And if we dwell on it too much, again we lose the present - the here and Now.  Revisiting agonizing traumas or betrayal, etc. stops us and binds us with chains of our own making from appreciating the current moment. 

This is not to say that we should not be mindful of our history, or the possibilities, but simply that if we focus on the Now, and the present, we will be more in touch with who we are and in general much happier people.  Buddhism, and other great religions often see grief and strife coming from people living in the past or the future, and losing the present in the process. 

A man/woman works 12 hour days for years, saying "it will be worth it when I retire."  All the while, their mind's eye is focused on that future and not the Now.  If they die suddenly of an accident or heart attack, imagine their dismay.  "But wait!  I had so much I wanted to do!"  But why weren't they doing it?  Because they weren't living in the Now where we always really are.


M

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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #6 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 3:05pm
 
Another way of saying this is that we always live moment to moment, so our decisions always take place "now."

Yvvak wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 1:03pm:
Albert,
The concept of the constant now is a bit confusing for me. Could you help me understand what it means and how the past & future relate to it?
recoverer wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 12:51pm:
Boheric:

Without getting into the various theories, try to feel for yourself if you have a free will.

If you do this the influences of circumstances and your psychological conditioning might be there, but this doesn't mean you aren't able to make a decision that is based on freedom. Rather, it is a matter of how much you allow yourself to think freely.

The thing is, we always exist "now."  The past and future play a role only to the extent we allow them to.

The more we find where true fullfillment, meaning and truth itself come from, the more we become free of our psychological conditioning and are able to act according to what circumstances require.

Even people who are really caught up in their psychological conditioning have free will. It is just that their conditioning sometimes prevents them from using it in a wise and beneficial way.

Regarding simultaneous time, don't we always exist now?





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Yvvak
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #7 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 3:23pm
 
I see. How does this work in the Afterlife? Is time there simply the movement from one action to the next? can previous actions be revisited? I apologize for this barrage of questions, but this realization has sparked concern for some reason.
recoverer wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 3:05pm:
Another way of saying this is that we always live moment to moment, so our decisions always take place "now."

Yvvak wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 1:03pm:
Albert,
The concept of the constant now is a bit confusing for me. Could you help me understand what it means and how the past & future relate to it?
recoverer wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 12:51pm:
Boheric:

Without getting into the various theories, try to feel for yourself if you have a free will.

If you do this the influences of circumstances and your psychological conditioning might be there, but this doesn't mean you aren't able to make a decision that is based on freedom. Rather, it is a matter of how much you allow yourself to think freely.

The thing is, we always exist "now."  The past and future play a role only to the extent we allow them to.

The more we find where true fullfillment, meaning and truth itself come from, the more we become free of our psychological conditioning and are able to act according to what circumstances require.

Even people who are really caught up in their psychological conditioning have free will. It is just that their conditioning sometimes prevents them from using it in a wise and beneficial way.

Regarding simultaneous time, don't we always exist now?






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DocM
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #8 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 3:28pm
 
Honestly, Boheric, I don't know.  My feeling is that our level of consciousness is greatly enhanced after shedding the physical body.  The human mind marks of time using the rotation of the earth/sun, clocks, day/night, etc. along with physical signs of aging.  Yet our reality is that the real "us" is living in an ever-present, whilel retaining residual traces of a previous state (our past) and anticipating outcomes (the future).  One New Age author, Eckhart Tolle wrote an intriguing book about this called "The Power of Now," which I recently read.  It is stimulating, enlightening, direct, and disturbing all at once (to my read at least).   I disagree with Tolle's making the human mind the "enemy" but that would take us off track here.

I don't know how things tie in together when we've died in terms of what are knowns and unknowns.  I assume that in the afterlife we move from one state of being to the next and that is our time equivalent.  I think it is difficult to comprehend it with the constraints of our current references while in a body.
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #9 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 3:37pm
 
I understand. Thank you for taking the time to share what you know and once again I apologize for the abstract nature and frequency of my questions.
DocM wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 3:28pm:
Honestly, Boheric, I don't know.  My feeling is that our level of consciousness is greatly enhanced after shedding the physical body.  The human mind marks of time using the rotation of the earth/sun, clocks, day/night, etc. along with physical signs of aging.  Yet our reality is that the real "us" is living in an ever-present, whilel retaining residual traces of a previous state (our past) and anticipating outcomes (the future). 

I don't know how things tie in together when we've died in terms of what are knowns and unknowns.  I assume that in the afterlife we move from one state of being to the next and that is our time equivalent.  I think it is difficult to comprehend it with the constraints of our current references while in a body.

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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #10 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 6:24pm
 
Those are interesting questions. I can't say that I have a coherent response, as it appears that our perception of time and of free will varies, if you go by "near death" experiences, and also if you go by results of afterlife exploration such as retrievals.

During some near death experiences people are given a choice between at least two different timelines, one in which they don't return to earth life, and another in which they do, in which specific offspring might be born, of which the near death experiencer receives a kind of precognition which might be so specific as to name the sex of the baby -- yet to be born.

This indicates to me that multiple timelines are, at times, visible in the afterlife, and that we do, indeed, at times, have free will to choose. This is beyond our ability to understand here. We are conditioned by our experiences here, so it seems illogical to us that both conditions can exist at the same time.

In addition, if you look at retrievals, it is clear that some "stuck" people seem to be experiencing their own "time loops" which may differ from what the retriever perceives. The retriever can simply "show up" sometimes and be able to distract the person enough for them to move on, in whatever way that works.

Frankly, I think there will be a lot of "ahas" going on, when we figure it out, eventually, after crossing over. What if all eventualities, all possibilities, were a given, something already available for us to choose from in our lifetimes? Wouldn't it be interesting, to a highly intelligent being, to watch which ones we choose at certain times and how that relates to every other choice made by other beings?

A huge, multi-layer chess board. If that is the case, we could hardly be blamed for our choices, as they were already there, but we might certainly have some interest in how it all played out when we return to our greater being in the great beyond which awaits us.
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #11 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 7:59pm
 
This might relate to free will. When my spirit guidance communicates to me it mostly does through symbolic means.

Quite often I get what the symbology means, but sometimes I don't.

My guidance seems quite wise, but as what I say above suggests, they don't know ahead of time whether I will understand what a symbol means.  This suggests that they aren't looking through some crystal ball into the future, and that my mind isn't conditioned to an extent where it is completely predictable.

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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #12 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 9:28am
 
I made my previous statement knowing that, indisputably, there have been times in my life when I felt no sense of "choice" available to me. It seemed as if my own reaction to events was, not only incomprehensible to me, but not one I "willed" to happen. I can only compare the force of events to a tide of events, with myself being pulled by what I can compare to gravity. When the force of gravity is strong enough, a person cannot simply ignore it, or act in a way contrary to its strength. I can say with no hesitation that certain events have occurred outside of what I would have chosen--not in any possible way would they have occurred at all had I actually "chosen" the path taken.

Therefore, I cannot say that I believe that we entirely have "free will" -- as there are circumstances in life which will not only confound a person, but even cause one to contradict all that he or she once knew as true. It is because of this that I cannot believe in any kind of instrinsic fairness to the concept of hell. Only that, eventually, we would all be confined to one, every single one of us, if allowed to live long enough to disobey our own "best" principles. It makes no sense to me for humans to be punished in any way for living here on earth as humans. If anything, we should be rewarded greatly. This is no easy place to live a life.
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #13 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 12:49pm
 
Hi Boheric,

I know you've mentioned on other threads that you've been interested in Tom Campbell's model of reality.  I think it's a good model so I'll try to answer your questions from that perspective, which is essentially my own as well.  This is what makes the most sense to me based on my own experiences and understanding.

Freewill choice is intrinsic to the greater ONE Consciousness Being.  If it were not, then evolution on any level would not be possible.  Everything would simply be static or motionless.  From the perspective of an evolving ONE Consciousness, freewill is unlimited, however, as we, as individualized consciousnesses participate in virtual realities such as ELS (Earth Life System) our freewill choices are limited by the number of probabilities available to us.  For example the ELS is composed of laws/rules that constitute our physics and dictates how our choices are limited.  Part of the physics is that time is slowed down so that we are better able to see and understand the "good" or "bad" consequences of our choices.  This is how we learn and grow from our experiences.

As sentient beings we have one major built in feedback system and that's our emotions.  When we make a choice that leads to pleasurable emotions, we feel good.  When we make a choice that leads to unpleasant emotions, we feel bad.  We are continually making choices every second of our lives, however we learn the most from the choices we make when interacting with each other and our environment.

All sentient beings have free will, however the number of probabilities for choices can also be limited by what TC calls "decision space", which means that a human has more decision space than a dog or a fish for example.  The more we learn and evolve, the more probabilities there are to choose from.  Someone that lives life with gusto, seeing life as a wondrous exploration has more choices available than someone who is depressed or afraid to get out of their comfort zone for example.

Time is linear because in order to learn, grow and evolve, the future must be based on the past.  The ONE Consciousness Being, of which we are a part of first evolved time when IT while in a primordial state first noticed a difference between one state and another.  How this seems to work is that the Consciousness system calculates probabilities and these probabilities can only be calculated if based on actualized past history.

Many non-physical explorers and NDErs misinterpret this idea that time is simultaneous because while OOB or when we are meditating and become a point of consciousness, we have access to all memory databases:  the past history database, which can include past probabilities (other choices that were not chosen or actualized); the actualized database; and the future probability database.  Since we have full, multiplicity access it seems that "all time is now" or simultaneous, however, it's only the databases of information that are available simultaneously, not time itself.  Time occurs in a linear fashion on all levels of being.

The Big Bang is better stated as The Digital Big Bang because it, along with the way it has evolved is a manifestation set in motion by the ONE Consciousness by the creation of the laws/rules that define a physical reality, which creates an immense number of probabilities (choices) that are available for it and us to evolve.  As long as the ELS is working to the benefit of the ONE Consciousness in furthering its evolution, which includes us as the main worker bees, it will continue.  Since it is digital, it can be tweaked if need be.  Perhaps it already has been.  Nanci Danison stated in her NDE she learned that the reason for the missing link in human evolution is because humans evolved twice.  Perhaps a "new and improved" model of a human being was necessary to increase the probabilities for success in its evolution.

Kathy   
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Re: Free Will or Determinism
Reply #14 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 2:52pm
 
Great post, Kathy.  I am not certain what to think about the place of the past and future, as I am still wrapping my head around the ever-present.  From a different angle or point of view, evolution really does occur in the ever present, eventhough the soul's consciousness may feel that the impetus for change comes from a past experience or a desire or worry for the future.

But to hear Tolle describe the NOW - and what a lot of Eastern mystics assume - is that the ever-present is all that is real, whereas the past is like a residue from a prior state and the future is a probability that has not actually taken a course or form.  To this way of thinking, an enlightened being could live in the ever-present with out requiring the past or future to obtain spiritual growth. 

I have heard it said that immediately when we leave the body (at physical death) there is a point early on where we experience a unity with God.  It is a type of temporary bliss.  Most people are then tempted in other directions by ego, the false need to feel separate, and by fear and desire.   In Tibet, the living read the Tibetan Book of the Dead aloud to try to convince the deceased person not to leave the light and unity with God so they can get off the wheel of incarnation.  An interesting idea. 

So, I'm not sure how I feel about TC's idea about linnear time past/future being necessary to "get it right" for spiritual evolution.  There is something annoying about the whole reincarnation process when it is seen as a necessary engine to "get it right" and take the right actions with our memory wiped clean.  Hogwash.  I don't buy into that right now.  (I for one, am not sure I'd ever wish to incarnate again.  The idea of a panel of elders convincing me to do so, planning it, etc. seems like bunk.  And the idea of being tricked into an incarnation as an inevitable fate, if we are not highly enough evolved, sounds even worse).

I haven't explored Tolle's idea of the "Now" enough, but I do like it in it's simplicity.  The point of it all seems to be present in the moment expressing love, a conscious being, who is  part of God, yet perceiving as a unique individual. 

M
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