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10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions (Read 43058 times)

heisenberg69

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #60 - Mar 1^st, 2013 at 6:22pm

pratekya wrote on Mar 1^st, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Don and others -
I have wondered about the issue of time in the afterlife also. I may have read this idea decades ago (from C.S. Lewis I believe), but to me it seems to make sense.
Imagine an author/reader of a book. He sits down and writes, and reads his work at his leisure. He can get up, go do what he needs to do and life moves on sequentially for him. He has a time, necessarily, because it makes sense for him to have a logical sequence of events. But he can see the totality of the experience of the characters in his books - he can flip forward, back, and their whole story is before him. His time has at least one more dimension to it that theirs does not.
Now imagine what the experience is like for the characters in his book. They simply experience time as a logical sequence of events. From their perspective, the author/reader is outside of their time; he is eternal in a way they are not.
The difference between the linear time of the characters in the book and time as experienced by the author/reader is maybe analogous to a single dimension versus two or three dimensions of time. All of the time of the characters in the book can be accessed at any time by the author/reader. The author/reader can represent God/BofL/Higher Consciousness/Self Disk or whatever... the point is that you can have higher dimensions of time, and lower dimensions of time can be wrapped up in it. I suppose when someone dies or enters eternity, they are no longer in the linear time of the characters of the book, and enter the time of the author/reader; they transition to a higher dimension of reality.

I think you are on to something.. Higher dimensional concepts such as 'all time' are almost impossible to grasp from a lower-dimensional perspective. Like fictional 2D flatlanders trying to understand the concept of 'upnesss' in a 3D higher reality; we will always struggle when we try to imprint a low dimensional perspective on a higher order meta-reality.

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #61 - Mar 1^st, 2013 at 9:59pm

pratekya,

Your excellent example makes my point in a different way: different experiences of time. The reader can put down the book and enter his own physical level of time that the novel characters, if self-conscious, cannot experience. But The reader's sequence of experience parallels that of the these characters, while he is reading the novel, whether he is following the novel's sequence precisely or he skips to page 180 and reads the sequence there. Sequence still implies an experience of time, even if either time in the future is experienced or the rate of time's passage varies. So many (not all) experiences of astral realms should be geographically identifiable by other explorer--and I have given examples of just such cases, but I only wonder why there are not many more.

ES was able to target specific araas or recently dead people at will and bring back information no one on earth had. Even alleged timelessness is no excuse for the failure of the decisive test: Astral explorers A, B, and C sequentially target spirit D either simultaneously or sequentially. If simultaneously, there later recall of who did and said what should overlap significantly and not be contradictory; if sequentially, then D wshould, if requested, be able to share the same thoughts with A, then B, then C. And discnarnate spirits should be able to narrate sequences of events, even if those events transpire in a different dimension of time.

Don

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DocM

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #62 - Mar 2^nd, 2013 at 3:58am

Don: Even alleged timelessness is no excuse for the failure of the decisive test: Astral explorers A, B, and C sequentially target spirit D either simultaneously or sequentially. If simultaneously, there later recall of who did and said what should overlap significantly and not be contradictory; if sequentially, then D wshould, if requested, be able to share the same thoughts with A, then B, then C. And discnarnate spirits should be able to narrate sequences of events, even if those events transpire in a different dimension of time.

"Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? Do you think that's air you're breathing now?" - Morphues (The Matrix)

For me, the problem is in analyzing a concept such as time, mind and consciousness using earthly objective standards, when mind is clearly outside of earthly laws. First, Don I would like to address your challenge to astral adepts on performing objective visits to the same person or place. I do think that is a valid experiment in objective terms. However, you must start with a broader question, namely, is astral travel an objective reality or a means to an end? ie. - do we leave the body with a silver cord and explore an objective realm? Many have had this experience so it may be real. It may also be, that the astral body is another false construct of the mind or vehicle created by those seeking to travel, who are not quite ready for the big picture so that their belief system requires a new "body" to explore(this may be like a lucid dream), and that mind/thought is the only reality. As such, I have always felt the concept of astral travel, though wonderful is deeply flawed. And the notion that we have a set number of objective energy bodies/astral bodies, etc. is an artificial construct, one that takes us from a false physical body, to a false astral one as an objective.

If conciousness is primary and all else secondary, then there may or may not be objective astral realms to verify via visitation. Or your experience of focus 27 - seeing new colors, may be different in the same area as mine - hearing new music - since our minds take a different "spin" on the same geography. Admittedly, if there is a primacy of consciousness, then people of a similar mind may create landmarks or topography that would be experienced by all who go there. I just don't know.

I do agree with you that the sense of timelessness should not imply a simultaneous of all times at once. ES noted that there was no time per se, and that spirits had difficulty understanding how we marked days and minutes on sunrise, movement of planets/orbits, etc. But they did agree that they recognized a change in state, from one state of being to another. I believe that this timelessness is not necessarily true timelessness, but thought moving so fast that much more is possible in an expanded or compressed mode of thinking. For instance "thought balls" mentioned by some explorers like Bruce, in which vast amounts of information are exchanged with a discarnate spirit would, I believe give a sense of disorientation or compression if this information were downloaded instantaneously on meeting another person.

If mind is primary, then belief systems act as filters for perception. If that is so, then if you and I set off to retrieve data on the same person or place, we may have trouble communicating because of differing belief systems and interpreters in our minds. If we both try to visit a house in Focus 27, and we fail, then can we say that the house is not there? Is there an objective house there, or is it a fluid pseudo-house which is seen differently or experienced differently depending on our perceptions and our filters?

Physical reality gives us a false sense of objectivity about things. But taking something simple, such as color perception, how do you, Don know that when we both look at the color "red" we are seeing the same image in our mind? Maybe my red looks like your green to me. We can both identify red again and again. We agree on descriptive terms about it it. We can describe the wavelength in physical terms. Yet, the true "knowing" of the color is based on my filters and experience in my mind. It is a false sense of objectivity to believe that the experience of "mind" or consciousness is the same and reproducible for each person.

M

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DocM

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #63 - Mar 2^nd, 2013 at 4:06am

P.S. - Pratekaya,

Your description of timelessness as being the author of a book who can go back and forth and experience different parts of the book is brilliant, and on a gut level I believe has validity when applied to how explorers describe the afterlife as timeless. And I think your and Don's points are well taken that it is isn't true simultaneous time - i.e. every form of time existing at once, but more an ability to jump forward or backward in the novel at will and experience a progression or sequence in whatever way suits you.

M

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heisenberg69

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #64 - Mar 2^nd, 2013 at 6:49am

But in a wider sense its not just about verifying astral encounters. Its an issue which affects all that which comes under the umbrella of the 'paranormal'. To anyone who takes the time and trouble to do the research it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that psi exists, random number generators can be affected by thoughts, some mediums can obtain unknown information under lab controlled conditions, remote viewers can obtain information etc etc.. all way beyond the chance levels which would be accepted in any other scientific field. But (and its a big but) with a few notable exceptions, it doesn't seem to happen 'to order' . This is why hard core sceptics can say that they demand proof now and unless its totally unambiguous it doesn't count and remain sceptics. Such people crop up on this board from time to time with a 'go on, impress me or its total rubbish' attitude. But the truth is that, to use Pratekya's analogy, as characters in a novel we can only guess at an author's perspective. The response to this, I would suggest, is to be humble about what we don't know and not retreat into the comfort of dogmatism.

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #65 - Mar 4^th, 2013 at 1:05am

Pratekya,

Let me deviate a bit from the current subject and make an observation from St. Paul: "Those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son (Romans 8:29)." What makes this verse intriguing is its reversal of what we might expect: i. e. "Those whom God predestined He also foreknew..." In other words, foreknowledge logically precedes predestination and not vice versa, as we might expect. Expressed differently, from God's timeless perspective, God perceives past, present, and future in one eternal Now as if they were a great unfolded scroll of events that time-bound percipients might experience sequentially. God does not predestine anyone in a sense that deprives them of free volition. Rather, God foreknows all my decisions, both my flawed and my wise choices, and fits them into God's plan. If God perceived some x factor in my mind that allowed Him to infallibly predict my decisions, that x factor would deprive me of free will. So no such x factor exists, only God's transtemporal perspective.
God might foresee the iinevitability of my future poor choices because of my emotional and physical state at the [future] time and create roadblocks to prevent me from making such poor choices. This possibility allows for some sort of divine guidance for those who seek it and meet whatever God's conditions are for such guidance.

So a useful analogy of how this might work is practice is a chess game between a grandmaster and a novice. The novice is free to make any moves he chooses, but his limited knowledge of tactics and the Big Picture ensures that the grandmaster can control the game, if not his green opponent's precise moves. Thus, the grandmaster's plan can in that sense be fulfilled without depriving the novice of his ability to move freely. Of course, as the game progresses, the novice's freedom can be increasingly restricted because the grandmaster can make a series of moves designed to severely limit the novice's options.

Don

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Lights of Love

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #66 - Mar 4^th, 2013 at 11:02am

Don, I don't see this as a deviation from the subject at hand at all. btw... excellent post!!

Quote:

Of course, as the game progresses, the novice's freedom can be increasingly restricted because the grandmaster can make a series of moves designed to severely limit the novice's options.

Couldn't a "series of moves" be the creation of virtual worlds/realities with various laws/rules of interaction with the environment as a form of limitation for the purpose of evolving one's spiritual growth? And of course we are never left alone... help is always available.

Kathy

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pratekya

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #67 - Mar 5^th, 2013 at 7:42pm

Thank you for the kind responses. I appreciate it a lot because I've read what a lot of you have written over the years and come to respect a lot of you very much.
I can't necessarily claim ownership of the idea of time as being multi dimensional; I believe it originated with C.S. Lewis but don't have time to check and find it at the moment.
I appreciate what Don is doing here, and I am also interested in objective testing/validation/verification/advancement of the art of retrievals and afterlife communication. In fact, I think the fact that I couldn't resolve the objective reality issue myself led me to have problems trying to practice Bruce's method. What do I mean?
I had read Bruce's books, and tried the method in the workbook. I got to the point where I was supposed to let my mind exist in 3D darkness, and then eventually some image or something would start to grab the attention of my bored mind. And I saw nothing. Now I had my doubts as well, because I had hypnotized friends of mine years ago, and have a healthy respect for the power of suggestion. So my doubts included things like 'if I expect to sense something in the 3D darkness hard enough, can I will myself to see something? How will I know if what I am seeing is not a product of my hopeful imagination?' I think Bruce would say that we look for inherent validation in the experiences themselves, but they are not validating necessarily to other people. Like for instance a name and other information from a deceased person that can be validated later, that an explorer had no prior knowledge of, would build the explorer's own inherent faith in afterlife communication and his/her abilities. But this experience wouldn't necessarily work for a different individual (it would be an appeal to authority, and would depend on the people involved). Personally I couldn't resolve the objectivity/subjectivity problem, and I think it stopped my progress as a hopeful explorer.
To proceed with Don (and Bruce's ideas) we need multiple successful explorers to test out some these ideas objectively, that can try to do some exploration and report back in some way that can be cross checked for accuracy before they have communicated between themselves through the internet or whatever. I don't know how one could do that on multiple levels; I'm not sure it's logistically possible. Don seems to be trying to advance afterlife exploration as a science (which is a worthy goal), while I think Bruce would acknowledge there is an inherent subjectivity to pretty much all of these experiences that cannot be overcome. I think I'm in Bruce's camp on this one but would be happily proven wrong. If we could make this more objective, and if Don is right, then tremendous advancement of our knowledge is ahead of us. Sort of like mapping out a new universe. All in all however, Don (and others) bring up fantastic points, questions and issues to consider.

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #68 - Mar 11^th, 2013 at 7:04pm

Kathy,

I've been swamped with people's heatlh issues, child custody and substance abuse battles, sermon and bulletin preparation, etc. But I have not yet answered your last question, because, duh, well you ask hard complicated questions! This last question presumes many underlying issues, which I need to incubate on for a long time and then give it my best shot.

But let me make the case for a starting point. The books on OBEs (phasing) and ADCs that are typically read by posters on this site are skewed towards a New Age perspective. By contrast, conservative Christians read OBE and NDE accounts from like-minded Christians and these accounts tend to confirm their theological perspective and predictably to contradict the afterlife accounts popular with New Agers. Some of these accounts from both camps are delusional; others may well be fabrications to gain game or wealth. But implcit in all of this are implicit or explcist doctrinal systems thtat gain approval for the particular audience attracted. Thus Bob Monroe, followed by Bruce Moen, have their proverbial "knowns," soul disks, hollow heavens or BSTs, Fovus 27 with its attendant doctrinally-based characterizations, etc. Seekers in both camps tend to dismiss cases from the opposing camp as fron liars or delusional loons.

What gets lost in the lack of interaction between such camps is the fact that most of these explorers are not lying and that the judgment of delusion merely reflects biased discomfort with conflicting models. The training lessons that might be implcit in your (Kathy's) question might partly point the way to a meaningful starting point for reconciling contradictions.

I suggest that you or anyone interested check out Kat Kerr's trilogy of books (1 still unpublished) entitled "Revealing Heaven." Likr Eben Alexander, she is all over Youtube. Her books are based on apparent spontaeous OBEs or phasing. Her heaven seems analogously "geographic" with abundant potentially falsifiable information. She even speaks of a reality theatre where people can act out earthly movies with heaven's equivalent of computer-generated holograms of settings and characters. Other conservative Chrstian trips to heaven are breath-taking in their vision and claims, even though they might ultimately be delusional. But if these counter-visions are often ultimately the delusional products of imaginations run wild with wishful thinking, why make a different judgment about our "gurus;" e. g. Bruce Moen, Bob Monroe, Robert Bruce, Swedenborg? We need massive flow charts that identify how astral explorers with often conflicting visions and beliefs deal with the many common motifs that are repeatedly addressed in these diverse reports. That way, we might be able to begin to sort out the true from the false on the basis of logic rather than intuitive bias and preconditioning. But we also need to consider the depressing thought that, if we can't come up with a satisfactory explanation for the contradictions, then none of these paranormal experiences may be evidential for an afterlife. The voyage to true knowledge leads through a comprehensive journey through the valley of doubt.

Don

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #69 - Mar 13^th, 2013 at 4:01pm

[Kathy:] Couldn't a "series of moves" be the creation of virtual worlds/realities with various laws/rules of interaction with the environment as a form of limitation for the purpose of evolving one's spiritual growth? And of course we are never left alone... help is always available.

Kathy, that possibility may be embedded in the implciit biblical model that presupposes the principle that none of us ultimately make it unless we all make it--that your success is my success and your failure is my failure. On this model, progress in PUL results from progress in creative service. Perhaps the discarnate caregivers are trained in the design of vitual realities, whose limitations promote such progress by curricula based on theme-based virtual system settings.

In that case, the principle of like attracts like may be only one of many principles that drive the shape of these virtual realities. Perhaps, then, we should give up the concept of Focus 24-26 as BSTs, not because it is false, but because this label is too oversimplified.

A thief's hell consisting of thieves might serve as a mirror of one's core desires, so that the misery caused by robbery schemes boomerangs enough be experienced as a window into one's own rapacious soul. But one is never just a thief; rather that character flaw is normally part of a complex of flawed core desires and aptitudes. So virtual worlds might need to be morally multi-faced in their construction to serve as teaching tools for complexes of core desires, rather than for a just one obvious flaw.

Perhaps the principle of like attracts like prompts an astral explorer who has just encountered a dead thief to then encounter other thieves to sustain the explorer's current focus of thought. In this way, the illusion of just a thief's hell might be created, when in face the moral and spiritual issues addressed in that virtual reality might be far more multi-faceted.

But, Kathy, if your suggestion is correct, surely astral explorers should be discovering planes in which such an adapted learning curve is more obvious. Then again, perhaps that is precisely what George Ritchie was exposed to during his prolonged NDE. He witnessss hellish planes over which benign beings (helpers?) hover. He also visits a plane "below haaven" which strikes him as the astral equivalent of a university with all sorts of exotic labs and subjects under study.

Don

« Last Edit: Mar 14^th, 2013 at 3:15pm by Berserk2 »

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Lights of Love

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #70 - Mar 14^th, 2013 at 12:33pm

Glad to see I'm challenging you, Don! lol Roll Eyes

It's usually the other way around!

For the moment let's assume God, as the ground of all being bubbled up a substance of himself or what I'll just call "potential" that was the beginning of the creation of an evolving (CS) Consciousness System. As the CS evolved it in turn bubbled up individualized consciousnesses (souls) and eventually virtual playgrounds (ELS and similar geographical realities) for the souls to learn, grow and spiritually evolve at a faster pace "knowing good and evil" or dualism.

In order for souls to participate in the numerous, divergent as well as evolving playgrounds/virtual worlds (both physical and nonphysical) these individualized souls bubble up spirits (us) as individualized consciousnesses, which is the same quality as that of the spirit's soul. The evolving CS through experience gained in various worlds/realities learned love (for lack of a better word) was the most profitable way to change its being or the substance of which it is. PUL is what the soul via the spirit is learning in order to evolve profitably.

So here we have an innumerable number of souls connected to an Internet of sorts playing in a multiplayer game called ELS. ELS is hugely diverse not only because of its evolving environments, but also because of the evolving souls via an incarnated spirit contributing to the quality or lack thereof to the ELS environment. Quality in a virtual world such as ELS and its supporting nonphysical realms is expressed in the extremes of fear and love. This would likely be true of any other physical virtual world/learning lab within the CS.

There are numerous implications to this scenario such as predestination and many more I'll leave unspoken for now. Since ELS is so diverse we can imagine other physical realities similar to ELS as diverse as well. Say for example an astral adept from another world similar to ELS would visit ELS and see a riot in Egypt. Might that be interpreted as a hell? Or say one sees a beautiful meadow with a waterfall in the Rocky mountains. Couldn't that be interpreted as a heaven? Or perhaps one might pop into the Hall of Congress or one of the numerous libraries, hospitals, etc. Just as other realities appear non-physical to us, our reality (ELS) would appear non-physical to someone from a different physical world.

Then there seems to be supportive realities that are non-physical. It is these that I think most astral explorers and NDE'ers participate in. They are one's that are conducive to experiences that relate to their inner self as well as what higher consciousness, the soul or guidance considers valuable to the spirit's understanding and learning experience in relation to their life experience in the ELS and as you mentioned illusory in nature because they're used as a teaching aid or tool. There also wouldn't necessarily be an obvious learning curve unless the realm itself was stable. Instead it seems more likely to be supplementary learning experience that's specific to an individual or perhaps groups of individuals.

I'll stop here for now. Even if the experiences of astral explorers could be placed on a huge spreadsheet how would it possible for most of the experiences to be correlated into geographical areas? That just seems like an overwhelming task that wouldn't really produce accurate results since all interpretation is subjective. In any case, it seems much more likely that scientific theory is what can eventually offer the evidence for the existence of an afterlife. Many theorists are coming forward with an attempt to bring ancient religious theology and scientific theory together. And it likely would be the science that contributes the most evidence to populations throughout the world.

Thoughts?

Kathy

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #71 - Apr 9^th, 2013 at 6:50pm

8. The assumption that most of the newly dead do not try to contact their earthly loved ones in a convincing way that reassures them: Most of us would want to provide such reassurance; yet truly compelling ADCs are erlatively rare. Still, some dead spirits confirm their survival in truly spectacular fashion. Why is their method or skill not routinely taught by astral guides in the name of love? Do the new discarnates find it undesirable or impossible to perform ADCs? Or does this prospect seldom even occur to them in the confusion and trauma of their newly discarnate condition?

My sermon title on Easter Sunday was "The Risen Lord's Hands and Feet." One of my points was this: In His early resurrection appearances, Jesus' voice and facial appearance were not sufficient to convince some disciples that they were seeing more than a ghost. In those days, ghosts were not considered foolproof demonstrations of a spirit's authenticity. Instead, what persuaded the skeptics were Jesus' hands and feet, especially their wounds. Jesus' use of touched further persuaded His followers that His seeming "physicality" was far more than what would be expected of a ghost. For example, the Risen Jesus invites physical contact and both cooks breakfast and eats fish in their presence.

After my Easter sermon, Tim told me I was preaching directly at him. Why? Because when Tim (a Marine) was on a mission in Afghanistan, he had a dream of his deceased grandmother. After a reassuring conversation, she startled Tim with this claim: "Well, Tim, when you wake up, you'll probably dismiss our little encoutner as just a dream. So I'll just have to do something you won't like to persuade you that I really am your Grandma!" With that, she reached out and pinched Tim hard on his cheek. Tim awoke at once and felt considerable lasting pain from the pinch. To me, this is just another indication about the various verification possibilities of ADCs.

Readers of Robert A. Monroe's "Journeys Out of the Body" will recall a somewhat analogous pinch by RAM of an unsuspecting female friend. RAM later told her that he was the pincher, and she exclaimed, "Oh, was that you?" But RAM's pinch can be explained away in terms of mistaking pricking sensations that we experience from time to time with a particular act performed by a familar discarnate individual. Still, I'm more inclined to credit RAM's story, now that I've heard about Tim's pinching experience.

Don

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #72 - Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 8:21pm

Kathy,

I recall one TMI devotee who posted several years ago that astral experience is only radically subjective in the belief system territories, but not in Focus 27 or "the Park, where geographical objectivity significantly defines interactions! In any case, in "The Case for Heaven," examples are given of geographically consistent park regions devoted to 5-year-olds with NDEs. Thus, one woman recognizes a painting made of an astral locale for 5-year-olds by a woman who had an NDE at age 5. The 2nd woman identified this painting as a site which she visited in an NDE also at age 5! Also, Swedenborg describes geographically consistent sites that he revisits, insisting that only the rate of movement is subjective and relative to the compatibility of the astral explorer with the target spirit. But more importantly, why isn't the issue we're discussing ever broached by astral explorers in their conversations with discarnate spirits? And why can't two independent astral explorers contact the same discarnate spirit at
different times and retrieve the same information?

To me, these questions are as urgent as one of Charles Tart's findings. A subject Miss Z, strapped down to a table and connected with scientific instruments, identified a random 5-digit number concealed near the ceiling. When it was discovered that she might have cheated, she was asked to replicate this feat, but could not do so. Neither could anyone else. So what does this failure say about the objectivity of OBEs? More importantly, some of the OBE research suggests an ability to identify verifiable targets. So why not this most impressive feat--a large concealed number?

Secondly, I ask why Supreme Intelligence would subdivide into consciousness probes in the first place? To develop more PUL challenges? If so, why? If these questions can lead to testable breakthroughs, then surely one insight is key: Evolution is at the heart of not only creation, but also postmortem consciousness. But natural selection and genetic mutation are keys to evolution in Nature. What are the parallel keys to etheric evolution? Are there as yet undiscovered principles of natural evolution (perhaps principles of evolving consciousness) that apply equally to astral existence? Duh!

Don

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #73 - Apr 24^th, 2013 at 7:38pm

Don,
I'm not sure I see the parallel between natural selection and spiritual growth. Natural selection develops a species that survives. Spiritual growth is inevitable and individual to the soul in question. Our spiritual survival is (we are told) not in question. Just the how and when of our path toward integration with the Light.

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #74 - Apr 25^th, 2013 at 11:31am

Don, I'm not sure I understand why someone's interpretation wouldn't be subjective in F27? All interpretation of any experience, in any moment of time regardless of the event is subjective according to a person's own conscious knowledge and understanding, his/her beliefs, etc. It's not "geographical objectivity" that defines interactions in any realm of consciousness, but specific laws/rules that pertain to each realm that defines the interaction within it.

Astral explorers, NDE'ers, describe what they may see, hear, feel, etc., but how can one determine what a specific realm is like unless they understand the laws/rules that govern it? Sure you get some interesting stories to speculate on, but the stories are from a person's own subjective interpretation of their experience. Wouldn't it be more conducive to our understanding of the non-physical if we were to better understand the laws/rules that govern these realms of consciousness? The question is how to go about doing that when all we really understand, at least to a certain extent, are the laws/rules that pertain to ELS? Since that's all we really know, we tend to project what we think we know to our non-physical experiences.

Just because several people see the same thing doesn't necessarily mean that it exists. It may or may not exist. For example, many NDE'ers see or go through a tunnel, others do not. Why would a tunnel exist for some, but not for all? Couldn't the idea of passing through a tunnel simply be a matter of interpretation of experience? Would an actual tunnel need to exist? I don't think so. And if it doesn't have a need to actually exist, wouldn't the next possibility be that it is simply a very useful metaphor for describing experience?

Any geographically consistent site certainly exists just as ELS exists, but they all, including ELS exist as realms of consciousness with laws/rules that specifically govern each "independent" realm within the consciousness system itself.

"In Him, we live and move and have our being..." Doesn't that mean the whole of all that exists? Made in God's image... Wouldn't that mean "Consciousness"? Though we usually think Spirit. What seems fundamental are the assumptions that something mystical exists along with a process of evolution... the evolution of a unbelievably huge consciousness system that evolves it's mystical being towards greater, and from our perspective, inconceivable love. For lack of a better word.

How do we really know that God was in the beginning a supreme intelligence? Couldn't supreme intelligence have evolved from a substance of potential? The same potential that exists at the core of each of us as an individualized consciousness being that is only conscious of its existence because of its experiences within the realms of consciousness/virtual worlds? As evolving consciousness, exploring all possibilities, couldn't that explain the existence of good/evil patterns that develop, thereby providing opportunity for choice? And the necessity for continual, even infinite existence as an evolving being? I mean, will our work ever be done? I hope not! It's the journey that I find most interesting.

Just some things to ponder. Possibilities... Cool

Kathy

Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.

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