Conversation Board - 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions

DocM

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #45 - Feb 22^nd, 2013 at 10:50am

The shared geography noted in the Parks and other places is interesting, but to my way of thinking is more of a convenience than a set-in-stone place.

On this board, we talk of "belief systems." Perhaps there are certain agreed upon geographies, that enough people believe in that appear the same to multiple people. However, just as we talk about freeing ourselves from hindering beliefs, so too might that topography and geography be malleable if our minds are open to it.

It is sort of the same idea as the notion of being the captain of your ship or being tossed around by forces outside of your control. Once in the afterlife, some may feel they are being judged or have to go to purgatory or a certain place to atone or because it is part of their afterlife experience.

Yet in different cultures, we hear different stories of afterlife or NDE adventures. I remember reading about a culture from the far east where the vast majority of people with NDEs reported going before a demon immediately after death to be judged. None of the common western experiences were noted from these people. This was the belief system; the expectation.

So maybe, common beliefs hold a form of reality together - maybe that is the basis for physical reality, but also for common afterlife topography or geography where several people report the same experience. But a deeper understanding of the nature of consciousness could be that we can free ourselves from the restrictions of such geography and create landscapes either alone or together to suit our needs.

M

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #46 - Feb 22^nd, 2013 at 4:40pm

The testability of afterlife claims is essential to distinguishing hallucinations, lucid dreams, etc. from genuine independent spirit planes. Why don't we hear more from ADCs, NDEs, and channeling about sequential events in the afterlife? The relative rarity of such descriptions counts against the authenticity of such parnnormal experiences. [I say this as a believer in many ADCs and NDEs!] Can't discarnate spirits be interviewed about such questions? We often hear about their afterlife residences. Surely the question of relative locations can at least be posed to them in various forms of astral contact.

In the 1970s, past life readers were studied for the potential of independent verifications of their past life readings. A group of subjects visited several past life readers and then compared readings. They were almost always inconsistent, but the readers explained such discrepancies away as a matter of different lives being read. However, when asked to read immediate past lives, there was no consistency whatsoever. This failing informs my skepticism about the inability of astral explorers to independently get the same information or "geography" from the same discarnate spirit. Why is this issue never addressed in partnered explorations of astral territories, especially of specific spirits who should be capable of imparting the same information to different astral explorers?

Don

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Lights of Love

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #47 - Feb 22^nd, 2013 at 6:52pm

Don, I don't think very many, if any specific "doctrine" about the structure of the non-physical can be embraced for a couple of reasons: One, we are talking about evolving consciousness that is in a state of continuous change, slow as that may or may not be. Two, the "beingness" of consciousness consists of countless individualized beings (you, me and everyone else) that have any number of probable opportunities open to each at any given moment, and since freedom of choice is intrinsic to us, allowance must be made for each individual's beliefs, inner quality of consciousness, etc. Otherwise evolutionary growth would not be possible.

I wonder, does it really matter where information comes from? I don't think so as long as the information/experience is helpful to a person's spiritual growth. Why does it matter if an ADC comes from the discarnate person or a "guide/helper" or from accessing memory held within the consciousness system itself if the contact made is beneficial to the person's spiritual growth? Why would a beneficial lucid dream experience be less than a beneficial NDE? It wouldn't since the entire purpose is to evolve consciousness in profitable ways by working with and helping individuals at their own level of understanding.

There are many, many realms of consciousness that exist as both non-physical and physical realities. Both types have their own rules of interaction. The non-physical has some structure, but not as most people think. There are no objects! Only symbolism... metaphors that represent culturally understood objects and ideals. The ones most of us experience are supportive environments to the ELS. Physical realities do have objective structure because of the constraints that arise from the laws/rules consigned to them such as time and space, mass and volume, as we know it in the ELS. Other physical worlds have their own physics, some are similar to ELS, others are very different and cannot be understood within our knowledgebase.

There are no non-physical fixed geographical territories except in the mind and memory of consciousness. They are real and can be visited and revisited and verified because they are representative of a shared cultural belief or as a supportive realm of consciousness. Essentially, they are metaphors that may be very helpful to us for communication with each other as long as it is realized that they are tools for describing experience. Otherwise, we can foster yet another belief system that can ensnare us. We want to progress beyond belief systems to further our spiritual evolution.

Rehab centers, hospitals, libraries, TV screens, computers, malls, houses, buildings, lakes, waterfalls, mountains, rivers, etc. are all within our knowledgebase and are easily understood so they make excellent metaphors for communication, especially when transitioning from a physical environment to a non-physical environment. It's what we know and perhaps it's the gentlest way to help us acclimate to a new way of life.

Kathy

Here are some quotes from Van Dusen's "The Presence of Other Worlds" which I finally found hidden right in plain sight on my bookshelf. lol

(I paraphrased a bit for the sake of brevity.)

Quote:

Page 81 - 82 "Our first state after death is like our state in this world, since we are then similarly involved in outward concerns. We have similar faces, voices, and character... This is why it still seems to us as though we were in this world unless we notice things that are out of the ordinary and remember that angels told us we were spirits when we were awakened." Heaven and Hell ~493

The closest analogy would be to the world of dreams, which also seems like the plain, ordinary, real world until one looks closer and pays attention to the differences. Like dreams, the spirit is now in a world of representations: he is beginning to meet his own nature in the things, people, and setting that surrounds him.

Page 85 - 90 The attitude that causes a drift toward heaven is in the feeling that there is a higher power and an effort to relate to it. This same spirit of humility and respect for the greatness of creation goes with an effort to be with others and to be of some use. By this, a person faces toward heaven. ...The one bound for hell serves himself first, last and foremost. By this attitude, he is cut off from the enlarging possibilities of heaven and becomes enclosed in concerns for himself over and above others.

"Essentially, spirits are affections or feelings, the inner or essential aspects of mind that underlie mere thought or memory. ...Since this is their nature, they are constantly breathing in a desire to know what is true, for the sake of constructive living. The Lord in fact sees to it that we love the constructive activities that suit our gifts." Heaven and Hell ~517

In many respects, the life of heaven cannot be understood as a simple extension of life in the world. Much of the character of the spiritual world is more nearly an extension of our inner experience. There is no time or space as we know it. ES said the ideas of time and space could impede our understanding of heaven. What corresponds to time is a change of state. The time of heaven is the always now time of the inner state.

Similarly, there is no space in heaven. What corresponds to distance is the feelings people have for each other. We also know the experience of being close to some and distant from others, regardless of the actual distances involved:

"People who are nearby are the ones in a similar state and the ones who are far away are in dissimilar states. It is why space in heaven is nothing but the outward states that correspond to the inner ones.

This is also why in the spiritual world an individual is present to another if only that presence is intensely desired. This is because one person sees another in thought in this way and identifies with that individual's state. Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance....

Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is within their town, in their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, they get there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not. The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path....

We can illustrate this by our own thoughts, ...for whatever we focus on intently in our thought is seemingly present...." Heaven and Hell ~193-196

What the spirit experiences is a reflection of inner experiences. Things in the spiritual world can be seen only by spiritual sight. What is seen and experienced is representative of the inner states. Spiritually rich inner states reflect in a surrounding that is gorgeous and rich. Barren inner states reflect in wretched surroundings. The spirit experiences what it is."

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #48 - Feb 22^nd, 2013 at 7:31pm

[ES:] "Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is within their town, in their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, they get there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not. The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path...."

Terms like "town," "courtyards," "gardens," "outside their community" all imply "geographuical" relationships in ordinary language. This implication seems true despite the absence of time and space as we know them. What might it mean to astrally visit someone's "town," and then travel "outside their community" without gengraphical erlationships in some sense?

Suppose that all ADCs are in fact contacts with the so-called Akashic records or Jung's collective unconscious rather than direct conversations with our deceased loved ones. In that case, there is no reason to believe that our loved ones are even aware of our contact; so such contacts would be impersonal and less satisfying. But if that were the true state of affairs, then my desired quest to learn of discarnate lifestyles and sequences of events would be futile. But I would also wonder, in that case, if there is any evidence at all for postmortem survival of self-conscious spirits, since such ADCs might be attributable to nonsurving spirits who lose their self-consciousness to the One--the undifferentiated cosmic pool of consciousness.

Don

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harvey

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #49 - Feb 23^rd, 2013 at 12:22am

Don. In all your intellectual reply posts, over the many years that I have been reading, lurking, posting here. You have been hell bent on answers from the various members of the so called "New Age Ghetto". Your denial of Christians, and Christian nations slaughtering each other since the Romans took over Christianity in 300+AD is appalling! World War One and Two were nothing but Christian Nations slaughtering each other!(except Japan)..But let's go back 1500 years until today. European Christian Nations were warring against each other in Europe and elsewhere!? Tens of Millions killed in the name of Christ from both sides. The Protestant and Catholic wars that still exist today!...Tell me? How many innocent people has the "New Age Ghetto" killed in past history? Harvey.

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2013 at 7:31pm:

[ES:] "Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is within their town, in their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, they get there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not. The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path...."

Terms like "town," "courtyards," "gardens," "outside their community" all imply "geographuical" relationships in ordinary language. This implication seems true despite the absence of time and space as we know them. What might it mean to astrally visit someone's "town," and then travel "outside their community" without gengraphical erlationships in some sense?

Suppose that all ADCs are in fact contacts with the so-called Akashic records or Jung's collective unconscious rather than direct conversations with our deceased loved ones. In that case, there is no reason to believe that our loved ones are even aware of our contact; so such contacts would be impersonal and less satisfying. But if that were the true state of affairs, then my desired quest to learn of discarnate lifestyles and sequences of events would be futile. But I would also wonder, in that case, if there is any evidence at all for postmortem survival of self-conscious spirits, since such ADCs might be attributable to nonsurving spirits who lose their self-consciousness to the One--the undifferentiated cosmic pool of consciousness.

Don

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #50 - Feb 23^rd, 2013 at 1:18pm

Harvey [alias Carl],

Yuo used to sign your posts, "Carl and family." Was that because you needed your family's help in composing them? Have you been neglecting your medications lately? If you are incapable of contributing original thoughts to the site's discussions, then please at least try to follow a train of thought. I have never denied or even discussed the history of Catholic violence on this site because I'm not Catholic and it is irrrelevant to the purpose of this site. Besides, as a famous preacher apty noted, "Being in a church don't [sic!] make you a Christian any more than being in a garage makes you a car."

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Lights of Love

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #51 - Feb 23^rd, 2013 at 5:11pm

Don,

A discarnate being "living in" a "town" with other beings may or may not have the understanding the "town" is a construct of consciousness and/or the individuals that inhabit it. It appears just as real as a physical reality, but there are differences. The "path" is followed by intent and focusing awareness. In the non-physical we don't really travel anywhere since there's no space. We change our focus of awareness. ES says we change our "state", but I think he means the same thing as what we think of as awareness.

Intent is what "moves" consciousness. With focused intent it can be just as easy to accomplish as connecting to the Internet and clicking on a link to go to a web page. Nevertheless, there are still rules of interaction within these realms of consciousness and inhabitants of the realm are subject to those rules, just as we are subject to those of the ELS. However, non-physical laws are much less constrained than a physical world.

First of all, I don't think all ADCs are from sources other than the discarnate person, but some of them likely are as in my experience with Matthew's mom. But they could be either the discarnate person, a guide/helper or contact with memory held within consciousness. So perhaps, there is more discernment needed when gathering evidence. I think it is quite possible that our deceased loved ones may not be aware of contact in some cases, but only a needy ego would judge this as impersonal and less satisfying. Understanding how things are leads to acceptance. Learning to live with uncertainty is part of the growth process.

Perhaps the best evidence for postmortem survival will eventually come from science. Especially as consciousness and resulting implications become better understood. The larger consciousness system and all of its realms/realities are widely populated with individual beings, just as ELS is. It's not an undifferentiated cosmic pool of consciousness. It is extremely organized and efficient... it's magnificence is wonderfully incredible and really cannot be known except for the most part in very minuscule ways.

Kathy

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #52 - Feb 27^th, 2013 at 3:05pm

Discussions of a timeless afterlife often seem to confuse no-time with a different experience of time and its passing. Even dreams that seem to last a long time can correspond with a REM state that lasts only seconds. NDEs often seem to last for hours, when in fact they last only minutes. ES's reference to "change of states" presumes sequence of states and hence an experience of time. ES and other astral adepts converse with discarnate spirits in a sequence of thought flow (sometimes rotes), which implies an experience of time. Discarnate souls have the ability to think logically and logic requires deductions, which in turn require a sequence of explicit or implicit premises from which inferences are drawn--and that process necessarily implies time. Then there is the journey or progress motif with respect to the afterlife. For example, communication with discarnates is almost impossible after a year. The concept of journey or progress implies sequence over some sense of time. Perhaps we should speak of relative or varying time flows rather than timelessness vs. time.

Still, I have a deeper concern: mystics who claim a simultaneous experience of past, present, and future as a static totally cannot express themselves in a logically coherent way that implies no sequence. The timeless model of the afterlife is an untestable and therefore meaningless model. Almost all contacts with discarnates imply sequential events and communication and therefore some concept of time.

Discussions of astral insight seem invariably permeated with unsubstantiated doctrines, conscious or unconscious. For example, what is the criterion for determining whether an experience of a Park is real or merely imagined or dreamed or whether the Park, if "real," is part of BST or Focus 27?

Some NDEers experience Paradise as brighter than the sun without hurting the astral eyes. They experience water droplets as fully alive. Others experience it as containing many colors unknown on earth; others experience no new colors. Some Christian NDErs experience the flowers and water (including waterfalls) as not only alive, but as producing musical harmonies. The NDEr can experience these harmonies individually or collectively as one all-encompassing cosmic harmony. One NDEr insists that these musical harmonies even surpassed reunions with loved ones as ultimately satisfying.

To me, such sensory differences seem a far superior gauge of experiencing a different spirit plane than the Monroe-Moen focus level model. Premature reduction of astral experiences to untestable doctrines is a major reason for lack of progress in such research. It is not permissible to cite timelessness or the absence of space as a grounds for evading the question: "Why can't different astral explorers independently confirm the geographic layouts of astral towns or regions." A few, of course, do pass this test. But why not more? First, one must answer the quesition, "Why can't different astral explorers routinely independently glean the same information from the same discarnate spirit to prove contact with that spirit? Until this 2nd question is addressed, knowledge claims about the nature of astral planes can be justifiably challenged.

Don

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heisenberg69

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #53 - Feb 27^th, 2013 at 4:13pm

Don-

'For example, communication with discarnates is almost impossible after a year'.

That sounds rather a bold statement - is it backed up by evidence ? I have heard of many accounts of apparent discarnate contact through mediums, from people long since dead. Of course alternative explanations could be suggested such as 'super-psi' but such explanations seems stretched when the living person hasn't thought about the discarnate in years and they are expecting much more recently deceased contact. It doesn't seem so cut and dried as you suggest ...

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Rondele

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #54 - Feb 27^th, 2013 at 4:23pm

I don't have any evidence about time frames after which it's no longer possible to contact someone in the afterlife, but I'll repeat what Laurie Monroe told me when she and I both attended Bruce's northern VA workshop several years ago.

Specifically, she said that it wasn't possible to contact her dad any longer, that too much time had already passed since his death.

Sadly she herself has passed on. But it does seem that there might be such a barrier. Whether it's a year or ten, I don't know.

Maybe Bruce can weigh in regarding this question.

R

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #55 - Feb 27^th, 2013 at 5:11pm

A study on ADCs in the 1970s found that 50% of Americans and 48% of Brits expeirenced paranormal contact with their deceased loved ones within the first year of their passing. After a year, such contacts were found to be exrremely rare. Also, when church people share their waking visions and other paranormal contacts with me, their deceased loved one often warns that continued contact will soon be impossible-and these warnings seem to come after about a year. Of course, channeling experiences no such problem, but then, as you know, I consider most channeling bogus--and not just because of the Gordon Davis case, which I still find compelling, despite questions about Sam Soul.

Astral adepts don't seem to be able to track down ancient biblical figures like Moses, Peter, or Paul. Nor do they have walking visions of these saints. On the other hand, ES claims to have had long discussions with the philosopher Aristotle and the long-dead Protestant reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin.
Was ES duped by spirit impersonators? Or is his gift in a class by itself, unparalleled by any modern adepts? I do wish a new and modern Swedenborg would emerge to be tested and questioned on such matters.

Don

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Rondele

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #56 - Feb 27^th, 2013 at 6:38pm

Don-

Yes a modern ES would indeed be terrific!

It might change my own tepid belief in the afterlife. After all these years, I'm still around a 3 on a scale where 10 would represent an absolute conviction of life after death.

Who knows, maybe some day we'll get the kind of conclusive evidence that so far has been excellent in eluding us.

Or maybe we won't.

R

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heisenberg69

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #57 - Feb 27^th, 2013 at 7:34pm

Don-

I think there are more than questions about Sam Soal - he had previous for fraud and his story didn't stack up ! It is certainly your perogative to consider most channelling bogus but I would say many people who have spent years studying the phenomenon wouldn't agree with you including David Fontana (who you have recommended as writing one of the best books on afterlife evidence -Is There an Afterlife?: ).

Even if we discount mediumship ; how about deathbed/crisis visions ? I have personally come across a number of examples from friends and relatives who I have no reason to doubt were reporting what they saw i.e communication with a long dead relative. It does seem true that most ADCs happen within a year of passing but that would seem logical given a) that is when grief is at its sharpest and hence comfort most needed b) continued contact could be an impediment to the bereaved getting on with their earthly life.

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pratekya

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #58 - Mar 1^st, 2013 at 2:40pm

Don and others -
I have wondered about the issue of time in the afterlife also. I may have read this idea decades ago (from C.S. Lewis I believe), but to me it seems to make sense.
Imagine an author/reader of a book. He sits down and writes, and reads his work at his leisure. He can get up, go do what he needs to do and life moves on sequentially for him. He has a time, necessarily, because it makes sense for him to have a logical sequence of events. But he can see the totality of the experience of the characters in his books - he can flip forward, back, and their whole story is before him. His time has at least one more dimension to it that theirs does not.
Now imagine what the experience is like for the characters in his book. They simply experience time as a logical sequence of events. From their perspective, the author/reader is outside of their time; he is eternal in a way they are not.
The difference between the linear time of the characters in the book and time as experienced by the author/reader is maybe analogous to a single dimension versus two or three dimensions of time. All of the time of the characters in the book can be accessed at any time by the author/reader. The author/reader can represent God/BofL/Higher Consciousness/Self Disk or whatever... the point is that you can have higher dimensions of time, and lower dimensions of time can be wrapped up in it. I suppose when someone dies or enters eternity, they are no longer in the linear time of the characters of the book, and enter the time of the author/reader; they transition to a higher dimension of reality.

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Berserk2

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Re: 10 Unquestioned Core Assumptions
Reply #59 - Mar 1^st, 2013 at 3:08pm

The appearance of long-dead relatives at the climax of many NDEs does create an apparent exception to the rule established by ADCs. Let me make 4 observations based on the fact that we are exploring our assumptions here: (1) Perhaps, a distinction must be drawn between the ease of contacts when one is incarnate and the ease of contact when one is clinically dead and has in an important sense left one's body. (2) Alternately, the role of apparent archetypes during NDEs may suggest that the long-dead relatives are not really present; rather thought forms replicating them create this illusion. In favor of the latter is the lack of information provided by these relative about their postmortem life and their lack of verification about their identity. One must keep in mind Robert Bruce's discovery that "staff" encountered in Rehab or Hospitial settings during OBEs appear to ne mere thought forms. (3) ES's discovery that the earth memory of discarnates eventually becomes dormant supports research that ADC contacts are generally rare after a year of the loved one's passing. But ES adds that, at the Lord's discretion, earth memory can temporarily be restored for certain purposes, and NDE reunions might be one such purpose. (4) What we must not do is create a host of implicit New Age doctrines by blending insights from ADCs with excellent paranormal verifications with insghts from sentimentally compelling experiences with no obvious evidential value. Few NDEs match the case of a discarnate Tami who psychically imprints her signature with a smily face on a mini-mart dollar bill received by her uncle and then announces in a vision the termination of her appearances to her mother because, after about a year, she must move on. I know the principles involved in this case personally.

No one has responded to my challenge: why can't astral adepts independently contact the same discarnate spirit or guide and ask the guide to independently import the same information to each astral explorer? Until this question is answered, I reject all rationalizations of astral explorers for their failure to establish astral geographical astral common ground--a failure they presume to explain away by simply claiming claiming all is mental in the afterlife.

Don

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