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Pray tell, what perception IS NOT on the basis of expectation?

Perception that we still can not quantify.

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Don, you're talking about apples and oranges.  Both can be categorized as fruit, but are not the same thing.  Same with the realms where NDE experience takes place and realms where entities with negative intent hangout.  With both NDE and channeling a person is accessing the non-physical, but the reality/dimension they're accessing is completely different, each with their own rules of interaction. 

An entity with mischievous intent will not be able to cause mischief within a dimension where the purpose is to accommodate the newly deceased.  Even if the mischievous one were to visit a NDE reality/dimension, they would have no power to do naughty things. 

Kathy

[Kathy:] An entity with mischievous intent will not be able to cause mischief within a dimension where the purpose is to accommodate the newly deceased.  Even if the mischievous one were to visit a NDE reality.

During his NDE, atheist Howard Storm is lured by entities to follow them because they give him the impression that they have his best interests at heart.  These entities then attack him and rip his spirit body to shreds.  Storm's desperate prayer brings Jeaus to the  rescue.   So deception can be part of an NDE.  As you know, NDEs contain contradictory claims about spiritual truths and NDErs vary greatly in their level of spiritual development and interest..  So why is it a stretch to doubt that NDEs are carte blanche exempt from counterfeiting?  Your reference to the purpose of NDEs begs the question of whether authentic NDEs can be consistently presupposed.  In other words,  the counterfeit possibility challenges the real purpose of specific alleged NDEs.  One the points of my channeling examples is that initial ecstasy that seems like love can later be found illusory. 

Lucy, many atheists who experience NDEs are confronted by "Jesus" in (as?) the BL.  Their typical reaction: "But I don't even believe in you."  Jesus' typical response: "But I do believe in you."  So in such cases, it seems hard to claim that experience always follows expectations.   

Don



K

[Kathy:] Don, I think what you're missing here is that numerous realities/dimensions exist.  All with their own rules/laws of interaction. When Storm initially left his body he wasn't in a reality such as the ones we've been discussing with the BL...He's extremely fearful and confused. 

No, he was angry and confused, but not fearful.  The voices in the doorway reassured him, "We are here to take care of you.  We will fix you up.  Come with us." 
Howard has no reason to doubt them and, with just some hesitation, choses to follow them.  He only becomes afraid when they show their true colors and begin to taunt and attack him.  So you can't say that he creates this experience through fear; it was the other way around. 

[Kathy:] He's likely in an OOB reality. 
I think you beg the question by assuming that his ascent to Jesus should not be classified as OBE reality.  In other words, we have no way of knowing whether other atheists less open to transfornation might experience a deception that includes NDE elements.  The contradictory elements of many NDEs do in fact suggest some deception.  As you know, Paul has OBE type experiences and ascribes the deceptiove ones to an "angel of light." 


K

Kathy,
Sorry, I didn't have his book handy was following Howard's alternative description on the NDE website.   In his online report, he mentions no fear, only anger and confusion.  Still, I doubt he would have responded to "their" deceptive offer to help, if he suspected they might be dangerous.  In any case, it seems too easy to suggest that his fear created the attack, especially since the details are paralleled in other hellish NDEs. 

Kathy, you acknowledge the reality of deceptive astral spirits; so what makes you think that variations of standard NDE elements are off limits to such deception?   Wouldn't deceptive spirits try to deceive in contexts where the victim is most vulnerable?  In view of the contradictory and missing elements of NDEs, your theory of self-created hellish experiences makes no sense to me. 

Any attractive spiritual experience from the realm of warm fuzzies is a ripe candidate for counterfeiting.  I recently encountered a haunting experience in which a friend's son saw light in his closet.  Clcihes like "PUL", "born again experience," and "speaking in tongues" are all nebulous experiences that invite politically correct claims and mean different things to different people.  My point is not to debunk NDEs; in fact, I deem them the best evidence for an afterlife.  But their underlying reality and power need to be assessed on a case by case basis and their authenticity must never be blindly embraced as dogma.  Ouija board deception can be set up by euphoric paranormal experiences that can be misconstrued as love (Paul's disguised "angel of light" phenomenon). 

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Don,

Actually I do think he suspected danger, but in his fearful, confused state he chose to ignore his intuition. In the book he said he was "afraid of those people calling me... they were irritated by my questions...the hallway looked strange... I had a feeling that if I left the room, it might be impossible to get back in... I stepped out into the hall, full of anxiety...

Even if the entities were real beings, they were able to find him because of his fear.  They wouldn't have bothered with him otherwise.  I don't have time today, but let me know if you're really interested and I will outline why I think the hellish experience could have been symbolic.  I'm not saying it was, only that there are signs that it could have been a symbolic representation of his fear.  Remember that even a lucid dream can seem more real than real, so it is possible.

K

Don,

One could assume that each BST does have a Park, etc.  Still to me it seems as though that way of thinking is projecting the physical world physics onto the non-physical world where no physical objects exist.  Everyone's experience is defined subjectively by the experiencer.  Flowers, water, musical harmonies are all symbols of the feeling being brought out in the experience of interpreting data received.  It doesn't mean that there is one realm/level here that has a musical waterfall and a different realm/level somewhere else that has a garden of flowers that smell of rich earth.  None of those actually exist unless you or someone else creates them in your mind.  They are representations of information received and interpreted. The non-physical does not even remotely resemble the physical world's physics.  There are no objects, only representations of them, and these metaphors we encounter and interpret is relative to our ELS beliefs because that's all we know.

I'll give an example to try to make what I'm saying clearer.  Since this is posted publicly I don't think Matthew will mind.  A few days after his mother passed I used my intent to try to make contact with his mother for the purpose of trying to help ease Matthew's sorrow. I received information that his mom was fine and got a visual of her sitting on a bench surrounded by potted plants, flowers, etc.  I saw her scoop up soil with her hands and let it run out through her fingers.  I noted she was wearing a blue dress and that there were other beings present that were running multi-colored energy into the locale. I felt as though I were intruding, then I heard words that seemed to be spoken in my head, "Tell him I'm fine."  And then something like "get to" or maybe "go do" "your own business." The scene disappeared and I began my prayer session, which I always do at the beginning of my meditation sessions.

Matthew said this sounded like a hit as his mom was wearing a blue dress and loved potting flowers, etc.

The visual I got was a representation of the information I'd received/accessed from the data stored within consciousness.  Either I or another being or the consciousness system itself created the visual as a means of communication so I could interpret the data.  It doesn't mean that the locale actually existed.  What exists is a realm of consciousness that is conducive to this type of experience. 

Is this Focus 27 or paradise or the park?  I suppose one could label this realm of consciousness as such.  However, someone else could have done the same thing I did and received a completely different visualization, but the meaning still would have likely been interpreted similar to my interpretation.  That mom was fine and adjusting to new surroundings with the help of other spiritual beings.  Mom may or may not have been the woman I saw.  The woman could have been a representation of mom.  Same with the beings.  They could have been a representation of the communication that mom is not alone, she is with those who love her and are tending to her needs.
 
In the non-physical, you don't have a spirit body unless you create one and many do create one out of habit because they're use to experiencing a body. So how is it possible for someone's "spirit body" to be torn?  It is all subjective interpretation that represents something within the person's inner being.  Reread Matthew's above post.  It's what's inside of you that counts.  Have you ever felt "torn" emotionally? Hence, the torn spiritual body could likely be a representation of a person's inner being.  It's been quite awhile since I've read any ES material, but didn't ES talk about this quite a bit?  I think what I'm saying is similar to what he said with the exception that he didn't really understand consciousness as fundamental.

Kathy

Terry Gross interviewed Dr. Sam Parnia on "Fresh Air" this morning about his work as a resuscitation doctor and researcher and his new book, "Erasing Death."  I think it will be well worth the read and quite relevant to some of the topics on this forum and this thread.  He is a scientist but based on his research open to the ideas, among others, that our consciousness is not limited to our brain and that we continue to live after physical death.  Very interesting interview.