Hi Lucy,                                                                                                                                                                         I don't know if this relates to what you say... I had an experience that occurred over a period of years, one that was scary & sublime. The few times I tried to talk about it, most folks couldn't understand why I wasn't experiencing bliss & happiness when these out-of-time moments happened. Well, it was happenning to me,  not them; perhaps they would respond differently but until they underwent the same thing they couldn't really understand & I couldn't fault them for that. Years after these experiences passed, I read something that gave me some perspective... it was something like "experiences of awakening aren't necessarily joyous; they can be disorienting & not pleasurable. Bliss or sadness or whatever state are side-effects of awakening experiences and are temporary and unimportant in themselves. They are states that pass and not the thing-itself. The books that tell you that enlightenment is a permanent state of bliss are trying to sell you something that can't be bought. Don't fall in love with a passing state and wish to make it permament...." I'm paraphrasing badly. What was useful to me was to be told that there was nothing wrong with me for feeling disoriented & uncomfortable, that it was normal to feel that way during such times.                                                                                                                                          Tim

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Don,

The BL has never identified itself to me, and frankly I've never thought to ask.  I also have not been able to go to the BL using my intent. My encounters with it are not from a NDE. It has always appeared to me when I least expect it and it seems the same every time.  Perhaps it is like an interface with the consciousness system.  I've never really thought about whether or not it's a radiance from a spiritual plane.  If it is, it can and does communicate with me.

To give you a visual of what I see... there is an immense blackness that is hard to describe, but the blackness is a light unto itself and seems alive with potential. The BL is a bright radiating, glowing light from which I feel the most incredibly beautiful love radiating forth from it. I perceive myself as a point of light or consciousness and I am not at all aware that I even have a body until I feel myself go back into it. Even though I know it is a wonderful gift to be here in ELS, each time I've had this experience, I feel saddened by having to be in my body. I'd very much prefer to be with the BL.

I haven't ever seen Jesus' face, however, one time I felt him lay his hand on the side of my face and after that I felt his presence and guidance almost constantly for quite a number of years.  I can't explain how I knew it was him, but I felt certain it was then and now as I think back on the experience. It was like he was continually present and I felt abandoned when I was on my own to continue my growth process.  Perhaps if there is a need Christ appears to a person.  I would say that the BL and Christ are not the same, however, there's no reason that Christ could not appear as a BL if he so chose.

I use to think there were various levels, however, I've come to recognize that there is no hierarchy.  Each plane or dimension (virtual reality) is governed by its own consciousness or what could also be thought of as rules/laws that exist within it, actually create it along with the beings that occupy it. One plane of existence is not spiritually higher or lower than another, only different depending on the purpose it serves.
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A lot of times getting answers is dependent on the person's ability to access information and then interpret the information correctly without bias. Not always easy to do since all we really know is our ELS experiences. Asking direct, precise questions is key as you've mentioned. Why do you worry about ES's point that spirit impersonation/deception is to be expected? I would both agree and disagree with him depending on the context. Why do you say ecstasy is counterfeit PUL?

Kathy

[Kathy:] Why do you say that ecstasy is counterfeit PUL?

Walter Pahnke scientifically studied the question of whether the classical symptoms of mystical experience could be replicated by psychoactive drugs like psilocybin.  So an experimental group of Harvard Divinity School students were given this drug in the chapel on Good Friday evening and a control group of students were given a placebo. Initially no one knew who received what. Those given the psilocybin generally experienced all the classical symptons of authentic mystical experience.  But their ecstasy, though very pleasant, did not produce the long-term transforming effect of a disciplined mystic's spiritual experiences. 

I myself have experienced intense satisfying ecstasy through speaking in tongues, but was later able to doubt the paranormal authenticity of such experiences.  But these episodes lacked the long-term impact of another experience (about which I have posted) which was light-years more paranormally powerful and transformative, whose genuineness was later impossible for me to doubt. 

So PUL can generate great ecstasy, but not all ecstasy is PUL.   But is PUL a proper phrase for the best calibre BL experiences?  The Christian word for PUL  (Greek: "agape") designates a way of  being and thus the terms 'pure" and "unconditional" can be measured in cmparision with impurities for motivation and conduct and strings attached to our love (implicit conditions).  But in NDEs PUL is an experience, not necessarily a way of being.  So what imprurites and strings attached are the foil for contrasting the experience of NDE PUL?  If "pure" and "unconditional" are appropriate terms for NDE love, the presumably other NDErs may experience lower levels of these qualities, depending on the spirit plane reached. 

So when NDErs encounter a BL and don't comment on an overwhelming loving experience, I'm just suggesting that this difference MAY be spiritually significant.  Is the NDEr's perception or spiritual development less advanced?  Or is she just experiencing a lower spiritual plane?  Or perhaps a quiet peace can be just as authentic manifestion of BL PUL?  If we embrace the afterlife principle that like attracts like and the Monroe-Moen identification is hellish planes, does the course of one's NDE already hint at one's ultimate postmortem destination? 

The classical elements of the NDE (separation from the body, tunnel, BL, encounter with loved ones, arrival at a barrier or limit, past life review are archetypes, and as such, may or may not be experienced on the same spiritual plane.  When some NDErs experienced these archtypes in a less intense form or skip over them altogether, it is worth contemplating what this might mean.   People tend to make assumptions about such matters when they read about or hear NDE reports.  I'm just trying to stimulate reflection on these seldom asked questions.

Don

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Yes, it's understandable that the drug would not produce a long-term transformation.  The drug would only act upon the body in biological ways, which can produce paranormal experience, but would disappear once the drug wore off.  The drug wouldn't change a person's quality of being at their core. There's no free ride.  A disciplined mystic on the other hand has earned his/her quality of being by getting rid of fear and ego.  For the most part, paranormal experience occurs naturally as one releases fear and ego and spiritually matures, though one can't rule out the possibility that there are some who learn how to achieve paranormal activity in other ways.  However, those that do have far less power than the ones with a loving quality of being.   
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Seems like maybe your initial experiences may have changed you in biological ways to create ecstasy, rather than in paranormal ways.  Sounds like you were very dramatically shown the difference between what we can create in terms of ecstasy and what can be given to us. Powerful stuff when expressed through our body!!
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PUL has lots of different interpretations based on one's personal experience and their ability to describe their experience adequately.  It is the BL's inner core being that is radiating forth.  It is almost like a tangible substance that can be felt because feeling is fundamental. It doesn't generate the same feeling/sensations in a person as a physical experience would because there is no physical body to sense with. You're a point of consciousness reacting to information being put forth within your own consciousness. Those who describe ecstasy or a quiet peacefulness are likely doing the best they can with what they understand and relate to based on their experience and subjective interpretation/understanding of that experience.  Everyone's unique even though we have shared cultural beliefs.

I've wondered if the principle of like attracts like actually applies to the non-physical.  Truthfully, I'm not sure, but even if it is applicable I seriously doubt if a NDE experience is in anyway telling of one's destination. For one thing, a NDE seems to take place in a reality that receives the newly deceased where we are accommodated according to personal belief and personal comforts in order to help prevent fear from arising. We also are never truly separated from our soul, so what if we at some point simply become integrated back into the fullness of our soul?  That may explain the oneness one feels with a BL some NDErs have expressed. If the BL is our soul, it sure would explain why I crave to be with it. lol  And...  What if hellish planes, etc. are symbolic representatives of fear/ego we're holding onto and not actual realities?  I'm not saying they can't be. Thinking of Storm's experience. To me what he experienced was his own fears coming to life so to speak or what he saw was a metaphor that represented his fear.
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I'd say the classical elements you mention are beliefs or symbols used to describe experience. Jung would say inherited memory, but I'm not so sure about that. Could be, but I lean more to cultural belief.  If you're having a sensation of being pulled through darkness, a symbol representing a tunnel seems understandable as a way to describe what you're feeling. Arriving at a barrier/limit can foster all kinds of beliefs, but I do think there are no limitations to where we can go once we know how to get there. Or if someone shows us. Someone arriving at a barrier likely doesn't know how to go further into unfamiliar territory.  You can do a life review even while still alive in the physical, not necessarily only after transitioning. Perhaps whether or not one experiences these classical elements are dependent on the individual, their belief, spiritual maturity, etc.

Kathy

Kathy and Ralph:

I like the descriptions of what you experienced. Thank you for sharing.

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 21^st, 2013 at 8:01pm:

Yes, exactly.

You will go to Hell!

Contacts with spirits lead to demonic possession.

You will burn forever.

Praise the Lord.

Hallelujha.

Crap.

Let's bring Assumption #2 into the discussion:

2. The assumption that the NDEr's identification of the BL is always projected on the basis of expectations: In most NDEs, the BL  does not identify itself; rather NDErs project a comfortable identification onto it.  Yet in other cases, Jesus explicitly identifies Himself as the BL to Christians, atheists, and in one case a Muslim.  Yet Muslims never seem to see Muhammad;  rather, they identify the BL as Allah (their word for “God”).  Does the BL often lie or deceive in the name of love so as not to alarm the NDEr with an unknown or disturbing identity?

So some posters imagine the BL is normally radiance from a spirit plane rather than a conscious entity.  What about the last sentence of Assumption #2?  When the BL—or an undetected being hidden with the light—explicity identifies itself as Jesus, especially to unbelievers, how is this revelation to be construed?  Will we be dogmatic and insist that these NDErs are confusing communication from this being with their own projections?  Will we instead claim that some unknown guide is impersonating Jesus to avoid trauma created by contact with an unfamiliar unexpected being?   In other words, is the being lying for some higher purpose?

If a counterfeit spirit is contacting the NDEr, how should we explain the counterfeit PUL initially encountered, but later renounced, by mediums Raphael Gasson and Johanna Michaelson?  How should we react to Helen Schucman's reversal of her high regard for her role as channeler of messages from Jesus Christ and her resulting psychotic break-down? 

Thankfully, this discussion has been intriguing.  Only Pauli's ideas seem to get desperately lonely. 

Don

Tim

Thanks for your comments. I guess this sort of experience is more common than we acknowledge.

I worry about the soldiers who have PTSD. That's what they said Ihad but there are "worse" cases than mine. But I think your point about this state being part of the process of awakening is true. I think it applies to the PTSD people experience ..hence the connection to the sublime... but we don't talk about it.

Does the experience have anything in common with kundalini rising experiences? The classical book on that describes a very intense and sometimes debilitationg experience, sort of unique. But if there are degrees of kundalini, then maybe some of this PTSD stuff could be related to that.