Are you really certain that is the case? Why do you give more credibility to the experiences of Moen and Monroe, than the experiences of others? With that way of thinking perhaps Moen hallucinated his experiences with Monroe.

Perhaps you are giving more credence to the experiences of some rather than others, because of your preferences. If that is the case, aren't you dabbling in your own belief system?






SHSS wrote on Jan 5^th, 2013 at 1:39pm:

Aunt Clair,

I appreciate your input, but I am a bit taken aback.

You seem to have missed my point. I clearly stated that the majority of "traditonal religious content" I referred to was predominantly Judeo-Christian.

You did read that, yes?

I am familiar with Eastern religions, at least at the overview level. Did you not notice my reference to Jainism?

I am not attempting to make detailed statements about Mr. Moen's views or beliefs. I haven't had time to read his work.

I did make it clear that it was my understanding that Moen shared a similar "universe view" with Mr. Monroe. I wrote "my understanding" in my original post.

The "universe view" Mr. Moen has-whatever it is-isn't necessarily directly related to the OBE experience and how easy or difficult it was.

For example, I have never had an OBE or NDE, yet I have embraced much of the content provided by Monroe and TMI.

Your verbosity seems to be inversely proportional to your understanding of my original posting.

Perhaps you should reread my original post.

How do your references to Vedic texts have anything to do with my core commentary?

Monroe clearly wrote that there is no singular God as described in the Judeo-Christian literature. Clearly there is a creator. Monroe's first two books spoke of a "creator who was created."

Whatever ultimate view Monroe assembled, I don't  think anyone on the forum who has read Monroe will contradict my assertion that Monroe repeatedly stated that western religions were wrong in view of heaven, hell, etc.

I am familiar with Jung. And Joseph Campbell and...

...I could go on. 


It seems you are trying to lecture to me or belittle me.

Why?

Please, stop with your description of the biblical origins. I am familiar with much of what you wrote, the council of Nicea and other sources.

You speak in glowing general terms about Judeo-Christian beliefs. The simple reality is that those belief systems, and Christianity in specific, are absolutely based on specfic religious tenets such as heaven and hell.

Do you somehow think you are the only one who has spent years reading various religious texts?

I am on a path to "go and see for myself." Isn't that obvious?

I find you to be judgemental, pretentious and, frankly, rather offensive.

Rondele,

I appreciate your perspectives, but I disagree on a few key points.

I am looking to learn more about the afterlife or the "ultimate reality of it all."

I have learned much lately. I have a good understanding of Eastern religions and have spent a great deal of time studying Toltec literature and practices.

I have learned, from Monroe and TMI, that there are 46 perceivable levels. This is quite specific.

I have learned that the Christ is the herald of the earth's 4th evolution.

If anyone views the above as contradictory to my negative statements about Judeo-Christian beliefs, please understand that I have a strong view of the Christ, but that view has little to do with Judaism or Christianity.

Lujan Matus wrote a compelling description of his visit with Jesus. Jesus said, in the visit or vision; "Mankind will regret in remembering me this way."

I have cultivated a clear "universe view" after my Toltec studies. Although some Monroe/TMI concepts seem somewhat contradictory to Toltec writings, the parallels and consistencies are simply incredibe.

I hope to further enhance my awareness with sources such as this forum, TMI workshops, shamanic sojourns, etc.

Have you learned from the forum in general? I am confused if you state that you have learned little in general or little in the last x number of years.

I haven't learned anything definitive from the forum yet, but I am confident that I will gain from the perspectives and experiences of many posters here.

I listened to some TMI session transcripts last night. I learned of Miranon, Lumeria and further details about the Christ.

I will listen again tonight.

NMM:

You mentioned Lujan Matus. I haven't heard of him before, just checked his site real quickly, and saw that he refers to Carlos Casteneda. Just in case it is relevant, if you do some research you'll find that Castaneda made up the stories that are in his books.

Below is what the site says.

"Lujan conveys his knowledge in ways that can be easily assimilated by the one who is learning. He employs the same methods of directness as Juan Matus did with Carlos Castaneda.  Lujan will uncover more than you will expect in a one or two week period. The lessons continue to unfold in daily life and are myriad in their applications."

If the person of Juan Matus actually did exist in the way that Casteneda described him, would he charge the fees that Lujan charges in order to teach a number of people? What happened to "omens" and all that Jazz?

RECOVERER

What leads you to believe that Carlos Castaneda (CC) made up his stories? Exposes and writings by others?

You suggest that I "do some research." Really?

I have spent years reading and rereading the work of CC and many of his critics. Years, literally.

I have done the research.

So if he is a fraud, then Tunnenshene, Donner, Abelar etc. are ALL telling the same lies then? Because they all tell the same fundamental story.

It is curious that the Castaneda critics haven't  risen up against the 2nd tier of "Juan Matus" authors like they did in their intellectual indictment of CC.

When CC was a lone voice, he was targeted. But now don Ruiz visits Oprah and America watches.

To be clear, I have great respect for Ruiz, I am simply commenting on how a Toltec author in the past was villified, but a subsequent author is embraced.

So was CC telling lies when he wrote of "the double" "the other" "the dreaming body?" CC is clearly describing the same phenomena and experiences as Monroe.

So when CC and the 2nd tier wrote of the OBE experiences-traveling at various levels and encountering various entitities, in various worlds, those consistencies with Monroe/TMI are just coincidences, then?

Many of CC critics focused on 2 areas:

1. Juan Matus exhibited knowledge inconsistent with the academic view of Yaqi indians.

Duh, boys and girls. Matus was becoming enlightened or something very close to it.

He was not a Yaqui. He was not an Indian. He was a human learning from whoever or whatever is out there.

2. Others saw CC in Los Angeles or elsewhere at the times he said he was in Mexico.

Well, now. One of the tenets of the Toltec belief system is, exactly like Monroe/TMI that time/space is not linear and sequential like most people think.

So, if CC was onto a universal reality that wasn't bound by time/space, the examination of his timing and whereabouts are irrelevant.

Secondly, CC may have done much of his work in dreaming. So his location and schedule viewed by others may have had no bearing on his dreaming excursions.

I really can't believe that someone interested in Monroe/TMI content would not be aware of Toltec literature in some detail.

The INSPEC (intelligent species, non physical) appear to be the "inorganic beings" CC and other Toltec writers describe interacting with.

I could go on-way on, but I won't. I won't turn this thread into a defense of CC of shamanic literature.

But again, I ask. What is your source for saying such a thing? Have you read all the Juan Matus literature?

The fact that you were unaware of Lujan Matus and his work is interesting.

So you did a quick online search and posted such a negative reply.

So here you are on a forum centered, in my understanding, on Monroe/TMI concepts and yet you write negatively about the only other modern author or communicator to express views and concepts largely consistent with Monroe.

I learned of Monroe after reading "The Path" by Esmerelda Arana. While I find her book to be the least helpful Toltec work so far, it did describe Monroe and TMI.

I had a negative view of OOBE and such based on drivel such as Shirley McClain and others espoused.

Crystals? They can be powerful, but not the junk bought at the flea market. They are best found by a practicioner or helper.

Crystals can be used as weapons. One work, I think from Donner or Abelar described the gift of crystals from Juan Matus. The recipient made her own armpit holster to carry the crystals unseen.

Are you aware of "the gait of power?" Were you aware of any of this? Do you really know of which you speak?

When I read Arana, I was open to learning about another description of the world (Monroe/TMI). You seem to have decided that the Toltec view has nothing to offer.

I am glad I did not dismiss Monroe's work. I have learned much from Monroe/TMI already.

I wish you well in your search, but I truly hope you take a little time to learn of Toltec views if you are interested in Monroe/TMI.

NMM:

I don't want to spend a lot of time trying to convince you since in the end it's up to you to decide for yourself whether Castaneda was a fraud. Years ago I was really into his books, but then before I read that he's a fraud I figured that he was because some of the things he wrote no longer sounded correct to me.

I don't want to spend a lot of time searching for the articles I found about him several years ago, but here's one I just found.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/the-fake-carlos-castaneda-2416...

You might want to check out the below video of Castaneda. People who knew him speak of how he was a fraud, had a cult-like following, and had parties with some of his groupies that included the usage of drugs and alchohol.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0398835/


Some say Lynn Andrews is also a fraud. Of course this doesn't mean all shamans are frauds. I figure many are legit. We just need to be warry of the frauds. Would a genuine shaman have a site where he compares himself to the non-existent shaman Castaneda wrote about?

I believe it is also important to be warry of shamans that do what they do with the assistance of unfriendly beings. Even some shamans say that there are shamans that use such undesirable assistance.

Thank you for the apology, but no real need. I can understand about getting excited about topics such as this topic.

When I mentioned the crystals Bruce wrote about I didn't mean to imply that there is no validity to some of the things people say about crystals. I also didn't mean to imply that there is no validity to what Bruce said he experienced. I just used crystal talk as a way of comparision.

No problem. I don't know anything about Toltec. How much what Castaneda wrote relates, I don't know. I haven't been to TMI. I've been able to have a lot of spiritual experiences without going.

I've read all of Bruce Moen's and Robert Monroe's books and like them.

NMM wrote on Jan 6^th, 2013 at 12:35am:

SHSS:

Are you on trial? Well, since you're a dinosaur, "yes," because not everybody believes that dinosaurs existed.

Thank you for sharing your beliefs.