Hi again Wonderer,

  It is better to get answers from within and from those most expanded guidance levels, rather than a fellow inphysical. 

  Most fellow inphysicals like Albert, myself, DocM, etc are not fully and completely intune with Pure, Unconditional Love Consciousness. 

Hence, our perceptual capacity is limited (to varying degrees depending) and can be distorted at times. 

    It is always more preferable to seek answers and guidance from within and from asking for the help, wisdom, and guidance of only the most Source and PUL attuned sources.  I for one, am not in the above category yet. 

  Very few, fellow inphysical humans are.  I do hope our relating our experiences, insights, etc. do encourage and inspire you to practice seeking answers and guidance yourself more often. 

  Also, if you know the importance of Love in teh more universal and unconditional sense, that's really the only and most important answer you will ever get from any Guidance worth it's weight in Gold and White Light.

If I do as Kathy suggests I have to believe that Justin was correct when he said: Kathy, it is far worse and more harmful than that.  "Definite and more extremely lacking in Light forces had a hand in it's creation and deliberately so."

Regarding Kathy's statement about fear, not living according to fear doesn't mean that we can't use discernment and try to determine if a source that claims to be benevolent actually is benevolent.  In fact, for myself, when I was afraid of unfriendly beings I tended to underestimate how much unfriendly beings exist because I was afraid to acknowledge their existence. The less I became afraid of them the more I was able to become aware of how they do exist.

When it comes to ACIM people respond to it in different ways. Some won't become overly involved with it, some will turn it into their religion. The fact of how many people have been brainwashed by ACIM shows that it is more than a mere book that doesn't require people such as Justin and myself to speak about it as we do.  The book is set up so that it requires more than a causual reading. It is set up so a person might end up commiting a lot of his time and self in the book.

Below is what ACIM teacher Hugh Prather had to say about the course. I believe that what he wrote shows that the course can have a negative effect.

"A few years ago, I attended a gathering where I saw many of the people associated with the Course that Gayle and I had gotten to know in the 70's. As I said earlier, I am aware of no teaching that emphasizes innocence and unity in more straightforward terms than A Course in Miracles. I know of no teaching that ranks itself more clearly as just one of many, as a temporary aid only, and as helpful to some but not to all. A Course in Miracles simply does not present itself as a superior or even a permanent teaching, and, in my opinion, the heart of the teaching is that we must turn from our belief that we are individually "special" to the recognition that we are not only equal but one with each other and one with God.

What effect does the long-term study of such a teaching have on its students? I was surprised that after twenty years it was the opposite of what I expected. With two or three exceptions, everyone I saw at the gathering was far more separate and egocentric than they were when Gayle and I first met them. In fact, their egos were so large that many of them had lost the ability to carry on a simple conversation. They made pronouncements and listened deeply to no one. I was appalled, and when I returned home, I said to Gayle, "If this has happened to most of our Course friends, is there any chance it hasn't happened to us?"

The answer was that indeed it had happened to us. Even though we had long noticed the unhelpful effects of most religions and spiritual teachings on their students, we had thought that as Course students we were immune -- because the Course emphasizes reversing this very dynamic. If the dynamic is not the fault of the teaching or religion itself -- and in most cases it clearly is not -- what mistakes do students make that cause it?

When Gayle and I finally looked at ourselves honestly, we discovered that although we had been ministers and spiritual teachers for many years and had written over a dozen books on spiritual themes, we personally had not become kinder or even more sane through our devotion. We, like most individuals, started a spiritual path with the intention of becoming better people and finding ways to be truly helpful, only to move in the opposite direction. The more time and thought we had put into teaching and writing about our path, the more self-absorbed we had become. We had ended up less flexible, less forgiving, and less generous than we were when we first started our path!"



Lights of Love wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 4:23pm:


LOL Justin, you are cracking me up.

That's your belief system at work.  I have no such belief since I've never read the book.  The only thing that can cause a person to "go crazy" is fear.  I see no reason to make other people afraid or clutter up their mind with pontification.  I trust everyone's own guidance system to lead them to where they need to be.  It's all just consciousness... information... we all choose how to react to whatever information that comes to us.

My advice: Don't believe anything anyone says.  In particular don't believe those who speak about something in a knowing and self-important way, especially when that person is not qualified to do so.  Be skeptical.  Find your own answers within yourself.  Trust your inner being.

Kathy
[/quote]

  Hi Albert,

  I started to become like the people that Hugh mentioned when i was deeply involved with this book. 

  I believe my Expanded self would put me to sleep when reading it in order to keep me from getting programmed in the negative way. 

  Hugh saw the effects of this course, but he doesn't appear to understand why it has this effect and so strongly. 
 
  As one who has studied hypnotism, the subconscious mind, etc.  it's really quite simple, as i outlined earlier, it puts one into a more subconsciously receptive state and then puts "suggestions" based on polarization and ego into the subconscious. 

  When i was into it, i started to see the big "EGO" monster everywhere.  Everytime someone else or i did or said something not up to par to Oneness, i would think and label it "EGO" and in my mind at the time, ego was the worst thing there is, it was the ENEMY. 

  Ego and judgment became more of a focus than Love and Oneness ironically. 

  Who or whatever created ACIM, was pretty clever in how they did this. 

  Like Yeshua warned so long ago, people, even more spiritually intune people, would get fooled by people and things supposedly in his name.

  It takes a certain amount of courage and humility to admit to self and to others that you let yourself get fooled and mislead, because it says quite strongly "i'm human and i can and do make mistakes".

Quote:


Yes, exactly!  Since guidance never led me down the path of ACIM, why in the world would I want to disregard that instruction and read it now just so I could speak one way or the other about my reactions to the information contained within it? 

That's all any book is... information!  How one chooses to react to it is up to them.  It's not up to me to say anything for or against it.  It's their learning experience, not mine.  Apparently you, Albert and I'm sure many others were led to follow that path if only in a limited capacity and had a negative reaction to it.  That's fine with me because I don't have a say in how you or anyone else chooses to react.  I also know of people that were led down that path and have had very good, very positive reactions to ACIM as well.  And it has been helpful to them.  Again, how they reacted is fine with me.  It is their life, their learning experiences, their choices.

Quote:


Justin, there's nothing wrong with that advice.  In fact, it's basically the same advice I gave using different words. " My advice: Don't believe anything anyone says. In particular don't believe those who speak about something in a knowing and self-important way, especially when that person is not qualified to do so. Be skeptical. Find your own answers within yourself. Trust your inner being." 

In other words, don't be a follower of the herd, don't simply believe something someone else says no matter who they are or how much respect you may have for them.  When I say anyone, I mean anyone! You, me, any author of any book, etc., etc.

The problem is that you seem to want me to somehow support what you and Albert are saying.  Sorry, but I can't do that.  Your experiences are your own.  Same goes for those whom had a positive reaction to ACIM.  Their experiences are their own.  I neither recommend, nor do I condemn ACIM.  It is only information.  Take it, leave it, do with it what you will is where I stand on it.

Albert,

It doesn't matter who channeled whatever with harmful intent.  It is still only information.  How one chooses to react to the information is one's own choice.  That is where the rubber meets the road.  It is a common belief in this world that we are separate from our total self.  We are not.  Since we are not separated from our total self, guidance is always within us, even when we are not aware of it being there.  That guidance can and does "pull back" so to speak and that results in our having a "larger decision space" to increase the number of possible choices one way or another, however, even when one goes astray, one is brought back into the fold.  Help is always available.  Isn't this true in your own experience?

No one is saying we shouldn't try to help people by sharing our experiences, but to insist one is right and another is wrong just doesn't sit well with me.  Again it is only information. We each on an individual basis choose how to react to it.  Most of the time when one is led astray, it is because they were far too willing to believe what they're told to believe.  Being skeptical, using discernment and common sense is the best way to not be led astray.  I think we need to be open minded enough to allow for change to take place, yet skeptical enough to base our knowledge on personal experience.  If we limit our personal experience say by accepting another's truth as our own, are we not then limiting the possibilities that are otherwise open to us?

Kathy

Kathy:

I don't have anything else to say at this time. People can consider what I wrote to whatever degree they want. However things go, I figure that eventually the Oneness will work things out.

Wonderer,
I think the trick is to just stop, and listen. As the others have said, ask for guidance. And then just sit quietly and listen. It won't be a loud or even a distinct voice that speaks to you (at least not at first).  As recoverer said, don't expect  a lot, don't preconceive.  Just sit, ask and listen. Day after day. Become a creature of habit. And you will hear.

Quote:

Justin, my friend, I'm really not sure of what you are talking about now.  If what you are saying is that people/entities can sometimes have harmful intent, I would certainly agree.  There's no question about that, but that is beside the point I've made in my posts, it appears to me that you are having some trouble comprehending what I'm saying.  Please read or reread my post to Albert above.  I've tried to be as clear as I possibly can.

Everything that we perceive to be external from us, outside of us is simply information.  We all have a choice as to how we react to this information.  I'm saying to be skeptical about everything anyone writes, including ACIM.  Nothing, including ACIM, is sinister or evil in and of itself.  To try to make it, or any other written work evil or sinister, is to try to instill fear into someone as a method of coercion.

Sure there are some people that judge it to be thus, and I have no problem with that as long as they don't try to interfere with the freewill choice of another person in the form of coercion by fear.  Someone doing that just doesn't sit well with me.  I'm sure you would not like it if someone were to use that tactic on you.  On the other hand some people have judged it to be helpful and good.  I have no problem with that either.  Each of us can only judge what is or isn't good for self.

What it is about what I've said specifically that you disagree with?  I'm certain that everyone on your short list, especially Tom Campbell would agree with what I've posted on this thread because he has many times said the very same thing in so many words numerous times in his books as well as on his forum and in his interviews.

Since you have spoken your open and honest opinion with me, I will do the same with you.  You seem to want to play comparison games and make judgments of other people, specifically those whom profess ACIM to have helped them.  That is an egotistical driven ploy on your part for whatever reason(s) you may have.  You have also done this very thing with me and those whom you have placed in a hierarchy.

Consciousness, the fundamental "stuff" that we are is not a hierarchy.  It is all ONE thing, ONE being. There is no true hierarchy except in the mind of one believing in such separation.  If you are honest with yourself, I think you will be able to see it for what it is.  I say this to you only with the hope that it may be helpful.  If not, please feel free to disregard what I have said as that is always your choice.