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The Time Problem (Read 17336 times)
Lauris
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Re: The Time Problem
Reply #30 - Mar 21st, 2011 at 6:01pm
 
Spooky, you say "let's throw away this "personal free-will" phrase", but it seems you're the only one who's using it Wink.

Anyway, saying that we have free will doesn't mean that it's not influenced by ANYTHING, as in 100% free (what would that even mean?). It means that amidst these influences there is a "me" who chooses, basing my choice on various emotions, thoughts, knowledge, intuition, history, etc. Some choices are less conscious than others, some are just reflexes, but in general we make many choices every day.

I think the idea that free will is impossible comes from observing the material universe of cause-and-effect, and, assuming thay only matter exists, everything is 100% cause-and-effect. But the trouble here seems to be the very simple fact that we experience CHOICE (with varying degrees of freedom in it) all the time. And saying that it's an illusion doesn't really make the necessity to make genuine choices go away.

It seems to me that if there exists free will (which only means we can make conscious and genuine choices, not that they're 100% free of any outside influence), the source of that must can not be material, for all that is material is subject to totally predictable (with sufficient knowledge) system of cause-and-effect.

Thank you Smiley.
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spooky2
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Re: The Time Problem
Reply #31 - Mar 24th, 2011 at 7:40pm
 
Hi Lauris,

I might be the only one who uses this exact phrase, but only because I like to precise on that. I think it's necessary to be precise here, as otherwise it just won't get us anywhere.

Yes, we can make the approach to split off personal decisions into a part which is preconditioned and one which is free. But then, when we focus on what the free part is, and how it works, the problem remains the same.

To make choices doesn't imply at all that these choices are made freely. It seems more the contrary: "Making choices", as it is used in a common sense, seems to imply to think about what to chose, and therefore to make use of what we've experienced and learnt in the past; and even intuition and subconscious processes are something which depend on past experiences, and/or influences from other sources; if not, we would make choices without reason, without a cause; and this then can't be called "personal" choices, as this very type of choices (without reason, without cause) won't got together with the concept of "person"; it would far more resemble randomness and chaos.

Of course, the material system of cause and effect, time and space in the end might just be one of many existing systems. But in other systems, where cause&effect, time and space don't exist, "free will" won't have any meaning. So, no matter how I turn it, it just doesn't make sense- to me anyway.

Thanks for reading (the few who still follow this  Wink ),
Spooky
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"I'm going where the pavement turns to sand"&&Neil Young, "Thrasher"
 
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Justin aka Vasya
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Re: The Time Problem
Reply #32 - Mar 30th, 2011 at 12:21am
 
   I can see how the term "freewill" is a bit of a misnomer from a few different perspectives.  I also understand that past conditioning often influences our choices to some or a large extent.

  But i think people can learn to change that conditioning to a large extent if there is enough desire to do so, and degree of openness to "higher forces". 

  I think attunement to Source and PUUL is a bit of a "wild card" in all this.  I think such attunement can help a person to transform limited aspects of self which in turn can influence the kind of choosing one does. 

I had a very powerful and vivid dream awhile back when i was doing a lot of intensive, consistent meditation--particularly i was doing the In home Gateway set a lot (the one with focus 21).  It's not a dream i talk openly much about because of the nature of same, but it's the only thing i can relate to this issue. 

  In the dream I was standing in a circle with other people or beings and we were all holding hands in a prayerful, meditative type way.  I somehow intuitively became aware that I should step into the center of the circle. 

  I knew as i was stepping into the middle of the circle that i was supposed to become a channel of the Christ Spirit or of the Christ Consciousness within.  Actually somehow felt like both at the same time oddly, like it was both an inner and outer thing simultaneously. 

  I felt this happen within the dream after stepping in the middle of the circle.  I can't really explain the feeling very well in words, but i felt like i was both me and yet not me at the same time.  I was still me, but a much more expanded, transcendent version of me.  I felt filled with power, life, and pure expanded awareness.  I felt such a connectedness, but i still had an awareness of an individualized sense of self. 

   So i imagine that if such attunement is possible within an in-physical life, it can really change how one makes choices--particularly being free of past conditioning, habits, etc. 

But, then again, it's not truly free either because then your will, desire, and choices align to the Creative forces.  One becomes a pure vessel of that creative energy and consciousness.  At this point in the game, you realize your greatest joy lies in channeling this purely creative-constructive, loving energy and consciousness and why would you choose or do anything other than that?
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