Conversation Board - Re:Robert Bruce!

Lakeman

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #30 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 10:08am

Seraphis1 wrote on Feb 17^th, 2011 at 9:57pm:

Lakeman wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 9:27pm:

I once heard Joseph Campbell talk, many years ago, about the dangers of the guru practice and concept (both in Asia and as it is imported here). He said that in the east, the idea is that the student should submit absolutely to the guru’s authority, even turning over moral decision-making to the teacher. He pointed out the dangers that such submission poses, and how the idea of individual decision-making and personal authority has been a cornerstone of the western consciousness. It seems to me that the Sai Baba case provides a vivid illustration of what Campbell was talking about, and also how followers will try to rationalize the most despicable behavior as “crazy wisdom” or evidence of some higher values that mere mortals and peons like us are not supposed to question. This is authoritarian and totalitarian thinking, pure and simple mind control. I have also read some of Robert Bruce’s books. It seems to me that he likes to come off as a “Man of Knowledge”--a guru-like authority who Knows and Has Experienced It All. This is very different (or so it seems to me) from Bruce Moen’s “here try this and see if it works,” and Bob Monroe’s “check it out for yourself,” approaches. I think all guru-types wind up painting themselves into a corner, and, for the sake of the rest of us, they should be left there.

Hi: This may be a missrepresentation of Robert Bruce. Everything he puts out there is intended to be reproduced by the student. He is not espousing dogma that is to believed... each person is to practice and prove for themselves the validity of the work... either you are moving energy or you are not... RB can't demand that you do so.

So there should be more careful understanding of the work before back door condemnation and accusation.

S.

I was not trying to represent Robert Bruce (so I cannot be accused of misrepresenting him, let alone of making accusations, etc.), I was merely giving my personal impression of his presentation, based on what I have read. I did not know about his Sai Baba connection, and I do not know if he recommends works by Chogyam Trungpa or Da Free John (though I have read about all of their now well-known transgressions). People will find value where they do, as I said in my previous post. I know people who love books and authors that I find boring and trite, and vice-versa. But I do stand by what I said above concerning the dangers of giving away one's authority and judgment to others, as well as the dangers of resorting to defensive moral rationalizations and other such evasions when the behavior of the guru is questioned or revealed as suspect. It's dangerous and unwise, in my view. As to whether an individual is surrendering themselves in this way or not, ultimately it's their choice to do so. Everyone is free to give away--or to claim (or reclaim)--their own freedom. Sartre once said that people have to be forced to be free--a neat paradox if there ever was one. Cheers!

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Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #31 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 10:51am

Lakeman wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 10:08am:

Seraphis1 wrote on Feb 17^th, 2011 at 9:57pm:

Lakeman wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 9:27pm:

I once heard Joseph Campbell talk, many years ago, about the dangers of the guru practice and concept (both in Asia and as it is imported here). He said that in the east, the idea is that the student should submit absolutely to the guru’s authority, even turning over moral decision-making to the teacher. He pointed out the dangers that such submission poses, and how the idea of individual decision-making and personal authority has been a cornerstone of the western consciousness. It seems to me that the Sai Baba case provides a vivid illustration of what Campbell was talking about, and also how followers will try to rationalize the most despicable behavior as “crazy wisdom” or evidence of some higher values that mere mortals and peons like us are not supposed to question. This is authoritarian and totalitarian thinking, pure and simple mind control. I have also read some of Robert Bruce’s books. It seems to me that he likes to come off as a “Man of Knowledge”--a guru-like authority who Knows and Has Experienced It All. This is very different (or so it seems to me) from Bruce Moen’s “here try this and see if it works,” and Bob Monroe’s “check it out for yourself,” approaches. I think all guru-types wind up painting themselves into a corner, and, for the sake of the rest of us, they should be left there.

Hi: This may be a missrepresentation of Robert Bruce. Everything he puts out there is intended to be reproduced by the student. He is not espousing dogma that is to believed... each person is to practice and prove for themselves the validity of the work... either you are moving energy or you are not... RB can't demand that you do so.

So there should be more careful understanding of the work before back door condemnation and accusation.

S.

I was not trying to represent Robert Bruce (so I cannot be accused of misrepresenting him, let alone of making accusations, etc.), I was merely giving my personal impression of his presentation, based on what I have read. I did not know about his Sai Baba connection, and I do not know if he recommends works by Chogyam Trungpa or Da Free John (though I have read about all of their now well-known transgressions). People will find value where they do, as I said in my previous post. I know people who love books and authors that I find boring and trite, and vice-versa. But I do stand by what I said above concerning the dangers of giving away one's authority and judgment to others, as well as the dangers of resorting to defensive moral rationalizations and other such evasions when the behavior of the guru is questioned or revealed as suspect. It's dangerous and unwise, in my view. As to whether an individual is surrendering themselves in this way or not, ultimately it's their choice to do so. Everyone is free to give away--or to claim (or reclaim)--their own freedom. Sartre once said that people have to be forced to be free--a neat paradox if there ever was one. Cheers!

Hi Lake: I have worked with Robert Bruce and I know that he takes people as he finds them... he is a voracious reader and he alludes to others work if he finds value in what that put in print... but, he is also capable of making rational decisions about character if he encounters them presonally... RB's explanation of Sai Baba as I encountered it was that the being that appeared to him was unknown to him at the time... his mother had a book or picture of Sai Baba which he stumbled on at a later date and he believed at the time there was a striking resemblence... but, don't all black people and Indians look alike Cheesy

... RB was not and is not a follower of anyone... to my knowledge he never even personally met the man... I personally don't attempt to dig into the background of every writer I read... one just picks up information and gossip as one goes alone... in the end, the validity of the work is expressed in your personal ability to have a direct experience of the goal of any given exercise...

S.

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Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #32 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 10:57am

PauliEffectt wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 6:56am:

recoverer wrote on Feb 17^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

I don't know what Robert Bruce is all about... ... he also recommends books by Da Free (goes by various names) and Chogyam Trungpa.

I did a search (of those names) on the AD forum and found nothing backing your claims. Could you please provide links for those two claims of yours?

Hi Pauli: I am with you... in RB's lectures he sometimes acknowledges some part of another's work that he has read and found agreement with... sometimes he recommends the books... for example Eckhart Tolle recently... but this is not a call to become a disciple of any guru... it is merely a reference to related work...

S.

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Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #33 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 11:03am

PauliEffectt wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 6:43am:

recoverer wrote on Feb 17^th, 2011 at 7:34pm:

Here's the link. Toggle down if you want to read the post where he seems to be defending Sai Baba's actions in order to defend himself.

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3954&start=0

PauliEffectt wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 10:16pm:

recoverer wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 9:29pm:

Regardless of the above, why did he find it necessary to defend Sai Baba's child molesting activities by saying things such as it was okay for Sai Baba to have sex with the children because they allowed it?

Could you please provide the clip.

That link didn't support your words.

recoverer, you are the only source claiming that RB would have said what you wrote above.

You don't seem to be able to make your claim valid.

Hi Pauli: Thanks for following up on recoverer's accusations against robert bruce. I must admit I ran into the accusations against Sai Baba independently and I worked with a guy who worked for Da Free John and he found John to be a fraud... (by worked for I mean an independent contractor for office work not a follower.)

S.

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Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #34 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 11:14am

Elanor wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 2:25am:

Justin, thanks for your thoughts. I bought Astral Dynamics several years ago when it came out, and was in contact with the author who considered publishing my OOBE experience in the book. I thought RB was the "real deal", but then I'm just a newbie and still honing that "spiritual bs detector"...

Recoverer, I'm positive that the book itself did not smell of sandalwood, the fragrance simply seemed to materlise (and very strongly so) out of thin air, and after a while disappeared completely.

E

Hi Elanor: Don't let anyone debunk your experiences... how can recoverer know what you experienced... I've been following recoverer's posts for a long time and he seems to by his own admission to have been duped by some guru type so his response to every spiritual teacher is a knee jerk condemnation.

The truth is that getting 'powers' and moral behavior are not mutually exclusive... plus there is the cultural norms of the earth's human population... recoverer seems to want to impose a fix moral code on every being and it is his moral code...

Caveat Emptor...

S.

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b2

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #35 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 11:45am

And now, for something completely different....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2VCkornS6k&feature=related

Garden Party just love this song

You know you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself...

------------

Songwriters: Nelson, Rick

------------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLm9KX-LvMM

the story behind the song

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Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #36 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 1:48pm

Quote:

And now, for something completely different....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2VCkornS6k&feature=related

Garden Party just love this song

You know you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself...

------------

Songwriters: Nelson, Rick

------------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLm9KX-LvMM

the story behind the song

Thanks for the breather... LOL!! I guess you are the peace maker b2.

S.

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Volu Senior Member Offline Posts: 468 Right here and right there	Re: Re:Robert Bruce! Reply #37 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 2:02pm Yes, it was quite a rough ride reading all those differences of opinions. Did everyone make it through? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4m4lnjxkY
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recoverer

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #38 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 2:21pm

Pauli Effect wrote: "That link didn't support your words.

recoverer, you are the only source claiming that RB would have said what you wrote above.

You don't seem to be able to make your claim valid."

Recoverer responds:

Even if something happened such as some being tried to fool Robert into believing Sai Baba appeared to him, why did Robert defend Sai Baba's immoral actions in the way he did? Below are his words (my comments are in brackets).

"Baba's behaviour is an enigma. He seems to have incredible spiritual and psychic abilities, but he surrounds himself with corrupt advisors and etc. I have heard first hand accounts of miracles and etc that I have no reason to doubt."

[What was his reason for mentioning corrupt advisors etc? If he's suggesting that Sai molested his followers' children because his advisors had him do so, well, that's ridiculous. It seems to me that Robert was grasping for straws with this lame excuse. Why didn't he mention having heard first hand accounts of sleight of hand tricks?]

"It is well known to those around Baba, according to what I have been told, for him to have occasional intimate contact with young men. This aspect of his behaviour seems to have been open to interpretation over the years. From what I was told, his interactions with young men are entirely voluntary, eg, the young men are not forced."

[What a bunch of B.S! As far as I'm concerned Robert is insulting people's intelligence if he expects them to expect this lame defence of Sai's actions. First of all, children aren't emotionally ready to give such consent. Second, a young boy would enter Sai's room, and right away Sai would start molesting the boy. Therefore, there wasn't time for consent to take place. Third, why would a supposed incarnation of God find it necessary to molest children?]

"Also consider that swami is around 80 years old."

[What does Sai's age have to do with it? Once again Robert grasped at straws to a ludicrous extent.]

"I have been told by followers that it is not unusual for an avatar to have enigmatic problems, including bisexuality and etc."

[There have been numerous unethical men who have claimed to be Avatars. Again, I think Robert was so desperate to defend his own reputation after making up the Sai Baba appearance story, he went out of his way in order to cover his tracks.]

"From what I have heard and read, Baba's explanation for the corruption and scandal around him appears to be that he wants people to focus on his teachings, and not on him as a person. It is said that he does not want to be deified, and this kind of behaviour will lessen that possibility. Given the many millions who follow Baba, this seems a reasonable concern."

[Give me a break! Sai Baba presented himself as an incarnation to God, and he didn't want to be deified? In fact, I remember reading about a man who said Sai told him that he did sleight of hand tricks in order to attract followers.

Plus, would a moral person with love in his heart resort to doing something as low as molesting children in order to stop people from deifying him? Certainly there are much better ways to do so. The fact of how Robert chose to use such a lame excuse is very questionable.]

"I do not have a firm opinion on this matter. At the time Baba materialized to me, I did not know his name nor even know who he was. I am not a follower of his and never have been. So this event remains an enigma to me."

[Robert came up with the ridiculous and irresponsible justifications he came up with, and then he tries to present himself as if he has no firm opinion on the matter.]

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recoverer

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #39 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 2:35pm

Volu:

I for one choose to not be indifferent about this matter. This world has a lot of problems and they need to be fixed. The more people grow spiritually, the more the world will improve because the outer is a reflection of the inner.

Misleading sources of information interfere with the spiritual growth of many people.

Perhaps many people who could help don't because they mistake indifference for transcedence.

Volu wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 2:02pm:

Yes, it was quite a rough ride reading all those differences of opinions. Did everyone make it through? Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4m4lnjxkY

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recoverer

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #40 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 2:44pm

"Backing your claims" such strong words. Have you done a lot of internet searches during your life? If so, you probably realize that it isn't always easy to find information you've found before. When it comes to the below, Bruce's site has been redone so the referrals I spoke of aren't there.

Going by what I can remember, he had a page that was about overcoming the ego and he recommended books by Da Free John and Chogyam Trungpa. Because Da Free John and Chogyam were very narcissistic (especially Da Free John), I wouldn't want to learn about ego loss from them. Both of them have led many people astray.

If I had the choice of being a person who can astral project a lot or being a person with good discrimination, I'd choose the later any day of the week.

I believe techniques are quite secondary when it comes to spiritual growth. Just about anybody can learn about some techniques and then teach them. I'm impressed when people have a big place in their heart for that which is divine.

PauliEffectt wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 6:56am:

recoverer wrote on Feb 17^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

I don't know what Robert Bruce is all about... ... he also recommends books by Da Free (goes by various names) and Chogyam Trungpa.

I did a search (of those names) on the AD forum and found nothing backing your claims. Could you please provide links for those two claims of yours?

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Volu

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #41 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 3:59pm

recoverer,

"I for one choose to not be indifferent about this matter. This world has a lot of problems and they need to be fixed. The more people grow spiritually, the more the world will improve because the outer is a reflection of the inner."

Wanting to change the world is a big task when one cannot change one's own underwear. Not directing this at you, just that - we all make mistakes - and in this very moment we might think we're right, a year later not. Did one change the world for the better when one was wrong? I like that you don't want to shove guru issues under the rug, and you got many valid points about gurus, in general. I don't care enough about the people mentioned to examine whether the claims are assumptions or knowns.

"Misleading sources of information interfere with the spiritual growth of many people."

Yes, but it's many times too easy to forget that spiritual growth has different roads leading to the same exit. It's easy to forget that others have a right to grow on their own. Pushing it too hard, and the pusher might become a guru him/herself. The other way around:

"Perhaps many people who could help don't because they mistake indifference for transcedence."

Speaking up isn't popular when a gang thinks otherwise. One learns to stick to what seems right despite might makes right though, and extra exp. gained in the process for every party involved. And extra exp. makes for refinement.

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Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #42 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 8:01pm

recoverer wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 2:21pm:

Pauli Effect wrote: "That link didn't support your words.

recoverer, you are the only source claiming that RB would have said what you wrote above.

You don't seem to be able to make your claim valid."

Recoverer responds:

Even if something happened such as some being tried to fool Robert into believing Sai Baba appeared to him, why did Robert defend Sai Baba's immoral actions in the way he did? Below are his words (my comments are in brackets).

Recoverer you are flailing a dead horse. Besides Robert Bruce is amazingly accessible... why not be nice when you contact him and attempt to in a civilized manner to sort out your problems with him directly rather than besmirch his reputation on this forum with innuendo and speculation.

S.

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Justin aka Vasya

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #43 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 10:34pm

Elanor wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 2:25am:

Justin, thanks for your thoughts. I bought Astral Dynamics several years ago when it came out, and was in contact with the author who considered publishing my OOBE experience in the book. I thought RB was the "real deal", but then I'm just a newbie and still honing that "spiritual bs detector"...

Hi Elanor,

I don't know if Robert Bruce is the real deal or not. I just stated that I don't resonate with him or his work. I will say that I do happen to agree with the issues that Recoverer has brought about him worthwhile to consider. Also, i found the way he or his friends set up that site that Seraphis1 shared the address to, to be suspect and lacking in integrity.

What i would suggest to you, or anyone, who is seriously interested in knowing the truth about this or any other source is this.

During meditation, ask for help & guidance from, and ask to attune only the most PUL attuned, creative-constructive, spiritually helpful guidance energies, whilst bringing up feelings of love and gratitude, and then ask whether or not a particular teacher or source is spiritually helpful to you or not. Even a simple yes or no question can work.

Developing that spiritual b.s. detector is a process, and i've been duped in the past, and have learned by mistake. I once got into a well known channeled book, and the only thing that un-entangled me from it was a clear dream message about said work (which when i awoke, i just knew dealt with that source). Yet, looking back, i somewhat feel like i should have seen the more obvious signs, like my "ego" getting bigger rather than decreasing. But i got duped. Lesson learned, pick yourself up and brush yourself off, and start back on the path.

It's a process i'm still refining, but i tend to use my intuitive sense more now. But it also important to keep one's "left brain hemisphere" active and balanced with the right, and i think Recoverer's latter posts do just that pretty nicely. He brought up some very valid, logical, specific, detailed issues, and yet no one answered him as they expected him to answer them.

In any case, that method i recommended to you is universally helpful, and one we can call anytime upon for such discrimination help.

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Justin aka Vasya

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Re: Re:Robert Bruce!
Reply #44 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 11:00pm

Seraphis1 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2011 at 11:14am:

Hi Elanor: Don't let anyone debunk your experiences... how can recoverer know what you experienced... I've been following recoverer's posts for a long time and he seems to by his own admission to have been duped by some guru type so his response to every spiritual teacher is a knee jerk condemnation.

The truth is that getting 'powers' and moral behavior are not mutually exclusive... plus there is the cultural norms of the earth's human population... recoverer seems to want to impose a fix moral code on every being and it is his moral code...

Caveat Emptor...

S.

Quite an over generalized statement wouldn't you say? Not too mention inaccurate. I seem to remember Recoverer speak well of people like Bob Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Christ, people whom others consider spiritual teachers.

The fact that he questions other sources when gaping holes come up in their logic and their teachings, and dares to speak up about this despite the popularity of such sources... Find personal fault all you want, but my sense is that you are really more so defending yourself rather than these sources.

When we become let's say, very interested in a particular source, very immersed in it (dare i say, emotionally attached), then it becomes an extension and reflection of oneself (at least the personality level). If someone else comes along and honestly speaks up about concerns about same, then its easy to become defensive, irrational, and subjective about said source and the person questioning same. Soon we may even find our selves condemning or marginalizing in a round about, kind of manipulative manner, the one questioning and pointing holes in our sacred cows.

Perhaps you could try logically and impersonally replying to the specific issues and points that Recoverer has brought up about RB and his illogical defense of Sai Baba, rather than coming up with huge generalizations with more than a hint of manipulation and untruth to them about Recoverer himself?

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