Hi,

yes, indeed, lots to ponder and a lot is a good argument, too. If you read my post "debunking the debunkers", you will see that I have already pondered the atheist arguments a lot and of course there are valid counter arguments! If I didnt think so, I would not have come to this forum but laughed it off. However, if one thinks two things are possible (spirit world or oblivion) and one is the thing you fear most and you have no way to find out 100%, it is still a very uncomfortable position. But as ustawutz says - banging your head against the wall doesnt help. I hope my brain stops bashing the rest of me against the wall soon, I am trying a few exercises to this end.

As regards NDE´memory, I dont think its due to belief systems, many atheists had NDEs (and were no longer atheists afterwards) and a lot of believers only remembered nothingness. It must be something else, likely a memory issue. Come to think of it, if we assume the NDEs partly happen in the spirit world, it is surprising that any memory at all transports to the physical brain.

Ebonmusings is the best atheist site that I know as regards non-aggressive arguing and obviously, the person is a highly intelligent, experienced debater. But of course there are flaws in his arguments. He does not explain the mute bits in our brain. He does not explain why there should be a god-interface (religious area) in our brain (there is), he does go into the fact that it can be damaged and then you lose interest in religion (which is true), but his conclusion that this means that there is no truth in religion is completely wrong, a classic example of a wrongly structured A means B argument. You might as well say that damaging the eyesight area in your brain means that eyesight is a myth and that there really is no world to see.
We have to accept that in this body, our brain is our interface to anything spiritual and obviously even that can be damaged, that may be an experience to have, though, same as any other.

Another argument, for example, of his is that evolution is not random and therefore, the often stated argument of creationists that the world is too complex to have evolved by pure chance is false. But he admits that mutations as such are random. Ah-ha? Even if you assume that evolutionary changes are very slow and that survival of the fittest is what governs it (which is, btw, wrong as scientists are proving at the moment), random chance is random chance and highly unlikely. And he doesnt even go into the question why such an extraordinarily low chance of a working universe (stable and not immediately collapsing) should have happened in the big bang when mathematicians have determined this is so unlikely that it almost cannot be true. So - I know that there are lots of counter arguments .

In the end, I have to accept that unless I manage to experience the afterlife on my very own, I wiill never have any convincing evidence. That is, as I understand, what Bruce Moen says too. I wish he would tell me what to do if his or Bobs techniques just dont work . At least, I havent managed in about 9 months of trying.

Anyway, you and ustawutz and DocM have given me great thoughts and a lot of help. I know I still will have a lot to work through, and it will likely take a long time till I can live freely again. Maybe find back to that state of PUL...at least part of the time. That would be wonderfu,

As to gathering experience in this life: Man, if this is true and I can remember it after my death, then I will surely not choose to incarnate here again .

I don't really know what a mystic is defined as, but generally speaking, it sounds like a spiritual person.....

The bottom line is pretty much everyone that is a spiritual person normally believes in some form of an afterlife. If they don't, I would say they are in fact NOT a spiritual person after all.

Wow...we've got a bunch of lawyers on here!  Pat E., you're right...we make a choice as to what to believe...mine was less a conscious choice and more one of default (or guided by hands not my own!) and I came to see, hear and feel those around me helping me.  And while I am in touch with them during meditation, while conscious they let me know they're there in odd little ways, but always reassuring, none the less.  Their direction has always been impeccable and sometimes lifesaving...without believing in them or their  contributions to my welfare I wouldn't be here...and they have assured me everyone has their own.  Seek and ye shall find...but from a practical standpoint don't "try too hard"...let them come to you and be ready to hear them...they are the quiet voice of love at the back of your head you almost feel instead of hear, but the words of hope, love and direction are there.  My greatest wish would be that you each find their voices and benefit as I have.

In love and light...

Hi Christiane,

There is a reason that most of us don't have a bonafide NDE (near death experience), and that is, when the heart stops, most will not come back.  But some do.  Many carry no memory of what occurred, some others have.  The descriptions and verifications, healings, etc. associated with NDEs are impressive.  The lack of memory of some may be attributed to where their mind was at at the time of temporary death, and how their memories are processed (i.e. - sometimes you remember dream on awakening, sometimes you don't).

You may be surprised to find out that most who have OOBE, do not travel to the heavens and talk to the deceased.  Most, like OOB Dude (who has posted many experiences on this board) have experiences of flying, being in a different state of mind, communicating with other beings in different ways, but it is not a path for many to an afterlife.  Why?  There may be several explanations.  Some may see the consciousness as traveling in the physical plane or an astral realm close to the physical but not yet in the afterlife.  My own belief is that to concentrate in "getting out" of your body is to miss the point.  We don't need an astral body to travel.  We are consciousness, right here and now, voluntarily connected to our physical plane.  However the blocks to communication are self imposed; this is one of the main things TMI and Bruce teach.  We must release limiting belief systems in order to explore.  The use of fantasy/imagination just gets it started - i.e. if I imagine a conversation with grandma, it may all be in my head.....but then grandma may say something unscripted.  Instead of backing away, we follow that.  This imagination technique facilitates breaking down barriers, but it still takes time.

The most common complaint I hear about meditation, hemi-sync CDs, etc. is that a person is frustrated because "nothing is happening." The answer to that complaint is that you shouldn't try so hard.  When you are relaxed when you can explore, things will come in their own time at their own pace.

So keep on your quest but don't despair.  Imagine, if you will a life review, where you are shown images of yourself vexed by worries of nonexistence, when the lesson was that you interact everyday with loved ones and strangers with whom you could make a difference.  Almost everyday, I keep the idea of PUL with me in the back of my mind.  When confronted with a tense situation, or bothered by something I will often think "what is the most loving response to this?"  I know it sounds trite. But I believe I am the better for it.  If I make a mistake (act out of anger, etc.) I try to make amends a lot quicker.

And a funny thing happens if you take notice of things and try to make a difference.  The tough times, the trials seem to pass a bit more easily.  There is grief, but there is more love, because you've opened yourself up to it, express it, and therefore receive it.


Matthew

I am wondering if you have read Tolle's first book, since your own experience is a fragment of his. We all long to recreate that transcendent experience, but I think if it comes on 100% it changes everything. It's not just about feeling good and continuing business as usual. You don't live in the same world any more.

Tolle has talked about how what hapened just before his peace experience started was that he was incredibly depressed, and then he looked at things from a different angle. I see parallels in that and the experience of the "hero" of that book Kardec likes. The guy is in the hellish part of the afterlife, and only gets out when he gives up and sees things from a different perspective, and asks for help. Which he gets.

I find the surrender the difficult part. I have this in mini episodes. When it is unbearably painful, I try to think of myself as standing in the Light. Sometimes it actually seems to bring about a shift. But it is difficult to do when one doesn't feel too happy, because to stand in the Light and focus on the pain, causes the pain to increase at first. Not exactly instinctive.

Christiane,
you are a very wise person!

Love,
David.