vajra
Ex Member
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It's a bit of a perennial issue, and one that's well known in spiritual groups. Pardon me if it comes across as a bit of a statement.
In essence the spiritual path has little to do with intellectual understanding - it's rather about transcending our identification with the thinking mind and the body in favour of a state of beingness - a state where we rest simply in the moment, that frees us from identification with thought and the selective perception this causes.(we see only what we want to see) This leads to daft and unloving behaviours, and is the root of all suffering.
This 'beingness' as a result opens us to assistance from spirit, grace, higher mind or whatever - and the resulting intuition eventually enables a true seeing, and is the source of joy.
The problem is not thought or use of the intellect to solve real life issues, the problem is the way thought becomes obsessive, and we become so attached to it. We think we are our thoughts.
The development of a more reality based and less dualistic view/understanding of existence can certainly help us to move in the right direction (but is not necessarily essential) - the resulting understanding can help show us that blocking fears are irrational, that selfish beliefs and actions lead to suffering. i.e. it can help us to shed blocking beliefs.
Structured debate too can have a place as a means of refining our insight and understanding.
It tends however to quickly get off the rails, and to degenerate into what in Buddhist terms is often called 'dharma babble'. The ego tendency loves this, it gets off on winning and losing, and in the meantime welcomes anything that deepens our identification with and involvement in the 'mad monkey' - the undisciplined and out of control thinking mind.
Which of course deepens our entrapment by it. As long as we're consumed by thinking - fretting about the past, fearing possible futures, building theoretical frameworks, winning this argument or whatever the mental noise blocks all possibility of our simply being - of our just resting in the moment.
This is why the spiritual traditions do not encourage loose chatter - it's genuinely unhelpful, and creates an environment which is not at all conducive to spiritual opening.
They instead emphasise spiritual work - meditation, reflection, prayer, whatever - plus the study/receipt of structured teaching. 'Structure' is important, the reality is that we often don't and cannot 'get it' (a particular view) until we've progressed sufficiently.
This is why there is a lot to be said for working through one or other tradition - they represent internally consistent paths developed over many many years. Failing that a self sufficient path of self work and study can be a runner too.
While it can help with issues that bother us, a forum like this quite honestly cannot be a one stop stop for instant enlightenment, or for answers to any and every question that in truth is easily answered elsewhere.
When questions and topics get tabled out of a simple wish to participate, to be a part of the group, to be seen as an expert, to push a view, or to win an argument etc then we're on the road road to self indulgent, incoherent babble. When the group dynamic/prevailing cuture takes on this tone it can only go in one direction.
Most of the established traditions use different language, but in the end say more or less the same thing. So it's not that important which you follow.
But maybe there can be value to an established system of teaching and practice that hands down and takes steps to preserve an established view, and establishes clear lines of teaching authority - in that it short circuits most of the babble. Personal/non-curricular questions when they arise are handled off line.
The trouble is of course that systems/traditions of this sort can also very easily be hijacked by those in pursuit of power etc too, so one has to be quite careful and discriminating in how one relates to them too. You can never suspend your disbelief, at least not until you know the people you are committing to very well.
Coming back to this forum. What is it to be? Is it simply for social interaction, or for structured teaching (in which case the problem of what to teach, and by what structure immediately arises), or for sharing experience and insight. (in which case some of what gets posted may not be relevant/understandable to all)
Or do we let it degenerate into the usual cliques fighting to head the pecking order that you see on most forums? Followed by the need to show due deference to that pecking order, and to stay 'on message' once one becomes dominant?
I don't think there's anything wrong with presenting a body of teaching on a 'here it is for what it's worth basis', but it becomes a bit of a mess if it's is read as an attempt to dominate, or is pushed at others.
What bothers me most about the way the forum has headed is that somehow the sense that the spiritual path is mostly about personal work seems to have become buried underneath the chatter....
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