[Beau:] "I am aware of the 'evidence' you speak of. I find it highly suspect."
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I think you're posturing; so I'll call your bluff.  What is the evidence? 

Matthew, I think my Ghetto rhetoric has proven its purpose: to make people defensive about their unwillingness to engage the big bad world of honest and open inquiry in a way that transcends the narrow pontifications of New Agers. 

Besides, I'm thinking of starting a thread based on the NY Times bestseller, "The Hidden Messages in Water," by Japanese scientist, Masaru Emoto.  That book takes the subject of mind-matter penetration to a whole new level and is therefore relevant to afterlife research.  But I don't want to waste my time posting for an audience that revels in expressing opinions with no need for rational justification.  So I'm trying to flush out just how mindless and close-minded this New Age Ghetto really is.  My anticipated thread may be a waste of critical energy.

Don

That's my point, Don. There is no evidence outside of those who have a vested interest in proving that contemporaries of Jesus could have written the Bible. The best evidence I have read...and remember that's my impression of what evidence should be and it is obviously  vastly different from yours, is that John-- If he lived 80 years might have written his book. The same has been said of Mark, but again it would require moving heaven and earth to believe it since the dating  does not support it. I'm not a scientist, nor do I pretend to know things I don't KNOW because of what someone else has written. But my question is why isn't there a book about Jesus written from the time he alive. There is nothing except a letter from Pilot to Seneca in which he mentions Jesus for a brief moment and that is considered by most to be a forgery...though everything from that period is technically a forgery because the parchment that they wrote on couldn't survive the years and the Monks would copy it over to preserve it. Perhaps you have some evidence that is not tainted by theology. I would be very interested to see it and I mean that.

I find it irrational to use the mind given me not to think things through. I don't remember everything I read as my motive in life is not to debate people but to grow my Self. I may find my way to the christian view of Jesus someday in spite how immature I think it is, but it won't be because something claiming to be evidence but is really more speculation is shoved down my throat. Still I would like to see what you're findings are on Emoto, because I will read anything I can get my hands on... But I am skeptical of anyone who thinks they know something... I don't really see how that fits into your New Age insult at all.

Yours,
Beau

Speaking of Emoto. I only know what I saw in What the Bleep Do I know?  I think that's the guy anyway and I thought it was interesting, especially the chi water, but I haven't read anything about how the experiment was carried out.

Well Don, That is a very admirable idea. I think it's great to know what we are talking about. It's true, I don't remember things that aren't what I'm looking for. I read something and if it peaks my interest I file it away, but if it's something that screams of "establishment" bias I just move on. I'm not a researcher, but I do a lot of research. It's just that I don't do it to make points to someone else so it's difficult to really engage myself in a hot debate without sounding like I'm saying, "I know what I know, so get f- yourself". I'm not interested in swaying someone else's opinion, but I am very interested in being swayed because I AM discerning. But still I like to mull it over for awhile.

I have to tell your though that your tone can really drive me up the wall sometimes and I know that is your intent and good for you.

I will read any book by any one but if it doesn't hold up for me as truth but more a manipulation of the masses what am I to do?

I often wondered as a child, "how will I ever exist in the heaven my grandmother is going to"?

Any way I will read it just because you suggested it.

Point me in the direction of eye witness testimony because I would like to see the evidence even if I don't agree with it after checking it out.

I went back and looked at the OBE & Phasing Evidence thread.

Good stuff!

To repeat a point made on that thread, why do you suppose no one has come forward to volunteer for an experiment that would demonstrate the reality of OBEs?

I'm not referring to OBEs that occur concurrently with a NDE, but to those that allegedly occur via the intent of the individual, such as Wm Buhlman.

He has written several books, proclaiming his ability to leave his body.  I'm sure there are many others who proclaim the same ability.

So why not put to rest this whole issue of OBEs?  The new age world certainly must have at least a few serious researchers who should jump at the chance of demonstrating the OBE ability.  Why hasn't it happened?

As the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary verification.  We seem to have plenty of claims, but precious little in the way of verification.

The common denominator among most new age adherents is their singular unwillingness to engage in critical self-examination of their own beliefs.  They have no problem in accepting any number of bizarre conspiracy theories, no matter how far fetched.

New agers will accept on face value all sorts of totally undocumented claims made by others (such as the contention that 9/11 was the result of an ingenious plan by the evil George Bush) but who get their undies in a knot as soon as someone challenges their assumptions.

Maybe we could have some solid reasons why it's impossible to show that OBEs really do occur instead of the same old worn out attacks against anyone who desires verification regarding their reality.

R

I believe we have to be careful here. The 'extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence' argument has never really impressed me. For example what constitutes 'extradordinary' ? It is usually anything which the Skeptic arbitrarily labels thus. For example many skeptics think psi is extraordinary but there's lots of data supporting it.

Also we need to be careful about lumping very different issues in together. For example holocaust denial in with pk research. They are totally different things. I am not happy with lumping such disparate things under the 'new age' label so that the thing under investigation is is discredited by association. Perhaps there are legitimate scientific reasons why obes are difficult verify objectively (but they still may be real ). Only open-minded research will tell. In the meantime perhaps its sensible to suspend judgment (and ridicule).

Dave

Rondele aka Ronald McDonald

The cases in which NDErs witness the happenings in the hospital room in which they have died are extremely rare.  How many can you actually name?  There aren't many.  Of course, these are the most important ones, for they verify the validity of the out of body experience and the continuation of consciousness after death.

However, if you take a look at my journals, and those of other avid OBErs on other forums, you will see that projections into the Astral Realms are just as common, probably even more so, than projections into the Real Time Zone (the dimension closest to the physical in which it is possible to witness realtime happenings on Earth). 

And even when one projects to the RTZ and believes they are observing the physical world, the thoughts of the projector heavily color the experience, and so if one tries a card reading experiment and has even the slightest expectation of what the card is, reality will be altered to meet the expectation and the card will change.  So even the projections closest to the physical world are subjective to an extent.

I am rather uninterested in setting up an experiment as you have suggested.  I have already proven the validity of my experiences to myself, and I really don't care to prove them to others- if they believe me then thats great, and if they don't, then I doubt telling them that I accurately read a card while out of body will change their minds.