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Is Good Evil and Evil Good? (Read 21617 times)
heisenberg69
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #30 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 4:00pm
 
Fair enough.
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Berserk2
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #31 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 4:30pm
 
The problem with ACIM is not just that it provably does not stem from the historical Jesus, but that the impersonating spirit caused Helen Schucman to become psychotic and blaspheme ACIM.  Her funeral eulogizer, a respected psychologist, deems it likely that she was demon-possesssed.  As Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them."

[heisenberg:] "For example in the New Testament - Matthew 1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38 both give contradictory genealogies for Joseph Jesus's father."

Two solutions to this problem have been proposed: (1) It is at least possible that Luke's genealogy traces Jesus' ancestry through Mary's lineage since Joseph was not Jesus' biological father.
(2) Luke's genealogy is not a literally exhaustive genealogy, but a theological genealogy that groups Jesus' ancestors in 3 groups of 14 and therefore omits many names. 

One tradition traceable to first-century Palestine claims that Jesus' brothers used His genealogy in their missionary travels in an effort to persuade skeptical Jews that Jesus satisfies the Jewish credential that the Messiah should descend from King David.  If so, Jesus' brothers probably used Matthew's genealogy.

[heisenberg:] "Also According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). However, Herod died in March of 4 BC and the census took place in 6 and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod's death."

Jesus was born in 7 BC. From Egyptian records we know that the Romans conducted a census every 14 years in their empire. This insight suggests an earlier census in 7 BC.  Remarkably, the best candidate for the "Star of Bethlehem" is the triple conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars in December of 7 BC.  In Near Eastern astrology, this conjunction meant that a great  world ruler has been born in Palestine.  When a similar conjection occurred 1,500 years later, Jewish astrologers excitedly expected the arrival of their Messiah.  Whether Quirinius could have conducted the earlier census is a difficult question because we know he was a high Roman official in Syria at an earlier time.  In any case, this issue is a mystery, not a contradiction.
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heisenberg69
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #32 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 5:23pm
 
Berserk2-

thanks for your theological input. The two issues which I chose at random ( I could have used others) were examples used to query the notion that the bible is something we can pick up and take at face value without interpretation/discrimination. If it was such a source we would not need armies of theologians and biblical scholors to pore over the text and tell us what they think it really means. In short there is a real debate.

With regards to ACIM in a previous post you identify the respected psychologist eulogizer as Dr. Benedict Groeschel - am I right in thinking that he is also a Franciscan Friar ? - hardly impartial in his views on demonic possession !

Dave
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Berserk2
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #33 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 5:47pm
 
Yes, but Dr. Groeschel, a psychologist,  is famous for debunking alleged demonic possession.  His good friend, Helen Schucman, was the exception.  The impersonating spirit that channeled Jesus to her quickly turned her into a depression psychotic who often used unspeakable profanity to blaspheme her own work--ACIM!  One cannot separate the merits of a literary work from the quality of its source!  To protest, "But I found it helpful!" is epistemologically irrelevant and meaningless.

Don 
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recoverer
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #34 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 5:47pm
 
Going by what Mark Cuneo said about Benedict Groeschel in his book Exorcism in America, he wasn't overly quick to state that somebody is possessed.

Regardless of the possession factor, Helen Schuchman was in a dark depressive state at the end of her life, which is hard to figure if she supposedly channeled Jesus for about 7 years. She referred to the course as that G.. Damn book. She said it was the worse thing that ever happened to her.


heisenberg69 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 5:23pm:
Berserk2-

thanks for your theological input. The two issues which I chose at random ( I could have used others) were examples used to query the notion that the bible is something we can pick up and take at face value without interpretation/discrimination. If it was such a source we would not need armies of theologians and biblical scholors to pore over the text and tell us what they think it really means. In short there is a real debate.

With regards to ACIM in a previous post you identify the respected psychologist eulogizer as Dr. Benedict Groeschel - am I right in thinking that he is also a Franciscan Friar ? - hardly impartial in his views on demonic possession !

Dave

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I Am Dude
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #35 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 6:18pm
 
Maybe she did channel a higher entity, and afterwards remained open and receptive to other entities, which is when the neg came in.  Is there any evidence that the same entity remained with her after the book was channelled?  Or could it have been another one?
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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vajra
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #36 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 8:09pm
 
It's perhaps worth repeating that what i posted is just a personal view guys.

It really isn't an epistemological issue, or argument to be 'won', or about bringing a set of beliefs to prominence Don, in that the question of whether or not a particular body of teaching comes across as credible to a person is in the end not really about intellectual thought - it's rather far more a matter of intuition and  personal experience.

The interpretation of the Bible and of the various Christian traditions is equally a matter of personal choice, and can (even bearing in mind that it's a heavily manipulated document) be pitched in many different lights.

We are however all heavily  conditioned in this regard, so it's rarely a matter that's agenda free.

The human person and personality that was the 'Christ' and lived 2,000 years ago has little to do with this either.

As a physical person or self He's long dead and gone, and what we're inclined to accept about Him comes mostly from the same heavily reworked accounts and interpretations.

Given this and the wildly varying and often pretty sketchy grasp we have of truth (ego is to varying degrees inevitably mixed with bits of higher insight), it's surely no surprise that so many interpretations arise across all traditions.

Quite why Helen Schuman's worldly suffering should constitute a negation of ACIM isn't clear to me at all - viewed from the ego perspective that's the nature of life. Since when has any spiritual teaching delivered instant joy?

What has everything to do with it is the Christ principle, truth or grasp of absolute reality that He so completely manifested, that we all will eventually manifest, and which through Grace/Spirit/insight/assistance of higher mind manifests right now at so many differing levels and in many differing ways.

Form has little to do with essence, it's at best a pointer towards what's pretty much inexpressible - one  which reflects pretty heavily our cultural conditioning.

The question we each have to decide in respect of any body of teaching is surely whether or not it points to this principle, and that's always going to be hit and miss until we get to the point where we can consider it free of personal agenda....
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heisenberg69
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #37 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 5:05am
 
Recoverer-

you say that Helen was in a dark depressive state at the end of her life. Wiki states that one year before her death she was diagnosed with advanced pancreatic cancer. My beloved aunt died of pancreatic cancer (its a horrible disease you literally waste away as your body can no longer assimilate food) she was pretty depressed at the end as well. Perhaps she profaned the material because it was kept being brought up when she was feeling rotten and knew she was dying. I'm not seeing this is the definitive reason only an alternative 'naturalistic' explanation.

Dave
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Cricket
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #38 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 12:22pm
 
I've thought of this...

Maybe she did channel a higher entity, and afterwards remained open and receptive to other entities, which is when the neg came in.  Is there any evidence that the same entity remained with her after the book was channelled?  Or could it have been another one?

alone, or in combination with her illness, certainly are possibilities worth looking into.  I never read ACIM, being somewhat given to DIY projects, but from what I'm picking up here and there, one or the other or a combination of both make sense as to the author and her apparent change of heart.
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recoverer
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #39 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 1:31pm
 
If Helen Schuchman was invaded by some other being later on, that would imply that she didn't benefit by being in touch with the being who gave her the words for ACIM.


I Am Dude wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 6:18pm:
Maybe she did channel a higher entity, and afterwards remained open and receptive to other entities, which is when the neg came in.  Is there any evidence that the same entity remained with her after the book was channelled?  Or could it have been another one?

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I Am Dude
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #40 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 1:35pm
 
How so?

Helen could have been given the wisest advice and knowledge that the human mind is capable of receiving from the highest entity capable of giving it to a human mind... in the end, it is up to her and her alone to make use of it.

So even if she didn't benefit from being in touch with the spirit who channelled ACIM... this in no way proves that the channelled being was a negative entity with bad intentions.  It only proves that Helen was unable to put the knowledge to use in her own life.
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Cricket
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #41 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 1:54pm
 
If Helen Schuchman was invaded by some other being later on, that would imply that she didn't benefit by being in touch with the being who gave her the words for ACIM.

Not necessarily - if I eat right and lift weights, I will become stronger than I was before.  Just because I can't lift a truck that drives over me, doesn't mean I didn't benefit from my time with the weight machine.  If I'm sick (say from pancreatic cancer), I won't even be able to lift the weights I could before.

Anyone who's been that sick knows that it has a draining effect on everything - including mental and spiritual resources.  She could have benefited hugely from the contact (and as I said, I know nothing about the book - I'm only arguing the value of the argument), and still, being in a weakened state and/or being hit by a metaphorical (and possibly metaphysical) truck, she could still have been flattened.

Nothing in this life works in a vacuum, and everything is relative.  Very very few of us, as advanced as we might get, will be able to shuck off the designation "mere mortal" while we're encumbered with our physical bodies and our "real life" and upbringing.  Doesn't mean we haven't benefited from something and improved our lot - just that it isn't necessarily enough.
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recoverer
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #42 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 2:06pm
 
If Helen was truly touched by the spirit of Christ, she wouldn't become prey to an agressive spirit. Her inner changes would supersede her physical condition.
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I Am Dude
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #43 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 2:12pm
 
Basically what you're saying is that when one is touched by the spirit of Christ, they become spiritually invincible.  Do you have proof for this or are you just making it up because it sounds nice and fits nicely with your beliefs?

I must admit, I doubt it was Jesus being channelled.  But I just don't see the evidence of the entity being malicious.
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Berserk2
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Re: Is Good Evil and Evil Good?
Reply #44 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 2:18pm
 
This thread provides striking evidence of the dangers of New Age fundamentalism.  Some posters are so blind that it matters little if Donald Walsch has been caught plagiarizing; some posters are so gullible that they are willing to accept someone's claim to speak for God, regardless of contrary evidence.  Also, recent posters overlook the importance of two key facts about ACIM:

(1) The entity Helen channeled is provably not the historical Jesus.  In fact, much of what she puts into Jesus' mouth is frankly evil from the perspective of the historical Jesus: e.g. the denial of the reality of sin and evil; the trivialization of Jesus' suffering and death on the cross, the denial of Jesus' unique status as the Son of God.

(2) If Helen claimed to channel an entity like Seth, ACIM would be misguided, but would not be so sinister.  Posters must ask, "Why is the entity lying about its true identity and why does this lie lead to Helen's psychotic depression and her bitter repudiation of ACIM?  Why would one of her best friends and colleagues consider her possessed?

Some protest, "But I derive value from ACIM!"
Translation: "I'm gullible enough to equate truth with what makes me feel good, regardless of the source."
And don't overlook a key psychodynamic of evil demonstrated by psychiatrist Scott Peck: Evil seduces the gullible and vulnerable by cleverly blending truth with error.

Don
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