Vajra...makes sense to me.

Dave

Hi R. Quite honestly i can't and don't know if the ACIM framework is true, anymore than we can know if any given interpretation of the 'why' of existence is correct.

What is clear though is that it does not teach that God does not care what happens in the world. The opposite in fact - it sets out very explicitly the means by which He acts in the world through Spirit and utilising the Christ ideal to guide us clear of suffering.

The means is exactly as you say - worldly situations (as we perceive them, because a given event can be perceived in many ways) are used as teaching opportunities. We are provided with all possible support to hear and learn the reality based way of being and seeing - although our conditioned tendency to selectively perceive means most of us are pretty profoundly deaf much of the time.

To position ACIM as saying that what we do does not matter is a fundamental misinterpretation. But what it does teach (in keeping with many other traditions) is that the only way free of the belief that we can only survive by taking advantage of others is to raise our perception and hence our state of being - to come to genuinely know that at the highest level what happens here does not matter, because at the highest level it isn't real and consequently never happened.

The core of the teaching is that this higher perception is the only means by which we can hope to get past our earthly dog eat dog conditioning to become able to live through love.

Teachings that position 'wrongdoing' as truly real simply reinforce our belief in the enormity of the task of forgiveness - and provide the ego self with further excuses to stall.

Of course it's possible for somebody to take this as carte blanche to do whatever they want (as has been the case for centuries with the Catholic confession) - it's a high level and very nuanced view (much like the higher Mahayana Buddhist teachings) that leaves plenty to personal responsibility.

But unless we accept predestination as a reality (which eliminates any possibility that our life decisions have any meaning) can there in the end ever be any way out without personal choice?

Buddhism for example is very explicit about this - the introductory body of teaching that is the Hinayana is basically a simpler rule based body of teaching designed for people not yet ready to take on board and realise a more nuanced view - the idea is to at least teach them the why and how of keeping out of trouble.

As regards the creation of this reality it's again a matter of causes within causes. It teaches that none of this is happening against higher will - as creative mind beings of God given free will we have the option to perceive, behave and as a result experience as we decide.

This is precisely why it's necessary that in the end our actions have no effect on the higher reality, while being very real indeed at this level - if we seek to claim that creation is not set up in this way then we arguably seek to place ourselves in control.

As regards it's being 'heretical' i guess as before that that's very much a matter of personal perception.

The problem as ever that leads to this sort of debate is our tendency to dualistically interpret stuff. This reality does not have to be one or the other - the creation of collective ego, or a higher creation.

The likelihood is that in reality is is simultaneously both, plus any other number of possibilities all at once. What we perceive out of this depends wholly on what we believe - on what we want to see....

Vajra:

I read all of what you wrote, but responded to only some of the things you said.

Vajra: Hi R. Quite honestly i can't and don't know if the ACIM framework is true, anymore than we can know if any given interpretation of the 'why' of existence is correct.

Recoverer: Oh but you can, if you allow yourself to do so.

Vajra: What is clear though is that it does not teach that God does not care what happens in the world. The opposite in fact - it sets out very explicitly the means by which He acts in the world through Spirit and utilising the Christ ideal to guide us clear of suffering.

Recoverer: If a being wants to be successful at misleading a lot of people, it will need to find a way to trick people into believing it is offering something  positive. If you consider the lesson I referred to (14) plus some of the other lessons, the course has the intent of conditioning people to be indifferent.

Regarding the Christ ideal, I don't believe a source that pretends to be Christ is capable of representing such an ideal. The manner in which I've received spirit guidance has been quite different than the course. A bunch of affirmations has not been a part of the process. Asserting that this World doesn't exist isn't a part of the process.

One evening I was shown an image of Jesus on the cross. I saw the actual man, rather than a statue. He was positioned on the cross so his pain could be seen. His pain wasn't due to his wounds, it was due to how he feels about what goes on this World. This message didn't serve the point of telling me that I don't have to be concerned about what takes place because this World doesn't exist. It served the point of telling me that Christ is very aware of what takes place, he doesn't deny it, and some of us need to change things for the better.

If we assert to ourselves that what we see isn't real, we'll strip away some of our motivation to change things for the better. I'm not making an unsupported statement. I've known a number of people who weren't concerned about what takes place in this World because their belief in non-dual teachings such as Advaita Vedanta caused them to believe that there isn't a World to be concerned about. ACIM has a lot in common with Advaita Vedanta and can have the same effect.

Sometimes non-dualists have the mindset that there is nothing you can do to change this World for the better, so the only solution is to get people to follow their guru and become enlightened (supposedly) so they can escape it. There are many verses within ACIM that show the same all or nothing approach.

I don't believe an approach that causes us to give on this World is a good approach.

Vajra: To position ACIM as saying that what we do does not matter is a fundamental misinterpretation. But what it does teach (in keeping with many other traditions) is that the only way free of the belief that we can only survive by taking advantage of others is to raise our perception and hence our state of being - to come to genuinely know that at the highest level what happens here does not matter, because at the highest level it isn't real and consequently never happened.

Recoverer: The fact of the matter is that "at this time" we are in this World, and we need to deal with what currently exists, rather than projecting ourselves into a future that doesn't exist.

People who have NDEs often state that it is important to love each other, and to be a positive influence. They don't say "nothing you see is real, so don't worry  about it.""

People aren't going to get this World to stop existing as it does by programming themselves to believe that it doesn't exist. It is going to improve when peopleacknowledge the many problems that exist and seek to improve them, partly by growing in love.

When we are in this World it is our responsibility to make things better, rather than acting as if we are in our goal state.  During my night in heaven experience I understood that things eventually work out wonderfully, but I'm here in the World now, and have to deal with what exists now.

Vajra: The core of the teaching is that this higher perception is the only means by which we can hope to get past our earthly dog eat dog conditioning to become able to live through love.

Recoverer:  One  way to love people is to see them as they are. If they are in fact sufffering, then we need to help them, rather than pretending that they  don't exist.

Vajra: Teachings that position 'wrongdoing' as truly real simply reinforce our belief in the enormity of the task of forgiveness - and provide the ego self with further excuses to stall.

Recoverer: Consider the life reviews people experiene during  NDEs. If a person did something to harm others, then he (or she) has to become accutely aware of how others suffered. It isn't a matter of asserting that the suffering of others isn't real. It is a matter of learning why it is important to care about what others experience.  This World isn't the final goal, but it exists substantially enough so souls can learn the lessons they need,  such as caring about the welfare of others.

Vajra: Of course it's possible for somebody to take this as carte blanche to do whatever they want (as has been the case for centuries with the Catholic confession) - it's a high level and very nuanced view (much like the higher Mahayana Buddhist teachings) that leaves plenty to personal responsibility.

Recoverer: Not everybody will respond to ACIM in the same way. Consider Dannion Brinkley. Because he quoted the course in his third book I suppose he believes in it, yet his book shows that he isn't indifferent to what takes place in this World. Nevertheless, the course can cause people to be indifferent and simply dismiss what takes place as unreal.

Vajra: But unless we accept predestination as a reality (which eliminates any possibility that our life decisions have any meaning) can there in the end ever be any way out without personal choice?

Recoverer: I'm not certain what you mean. Nevertheless,  I'll say this: the more our souls gain wisdom, the more we are able to make wise choices. Eventually we'll be wise enough to realize that what divine will has in store for us is the best option available by a long shot.

I agree with the last bit you wrote there Albert, but people who are looking for a reason to be indifferent to the plight of others will find it in most anything. That is where they are. I don't think ACIM should be discounted because how someone might or might not use the information. When I see someone suffering I have to use a little wisdom to figure out if what I offer can be of help to them. I want to help where that help is wanted and needed, but a slit throat for my trouble is not what I am after either.

The only thing that kept Jesus on the cross was his love for humanity

Alan

Heisenberg 69:

When it comes to the gospels you're speaking about it could be a matter of human beings recording what took place with Jesus in an inconsistent manner. This doesn't negate the reality of Jesus.

When somebody fraudulently claims to have channeled a spirit being that represents the light it is quite a different manner. It isn't a matter of actual occurences being recorded in an inaccurate manner. It is a matter of a fraud sometimes saying things that are accurate, and sometimes saying things that are false.




heisenberg69 wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2009 at 1:52pm:

Recoverer:

I am quite prepared to accept that Jesus was/is an exceptional being but what we know of Him comes largely through the four Gospels written by people (who may or may not have met Him - I don't know I was'nt there) and then translated a number of times to their present form. Plenty of opportunity for distortion to enter the equation. Subjective personal experiences of Jesus are just that - subjective and personal.

Dave