In the transition to Stage 3, ES reports that souls are now ready for extensive education and schcoling.  But what then?  As far as I know, ES is the only astral explorer who actively sought out contacts with the most famous humans from the distant past: e. g. the Greek philosopher Aristotle, the pioneer of the Portestant Reformation, Martin Luther, and John Calvin.  ES strikes me as too cocky here; he fills these worthies in on his insights from years of exploration, but does not report their insights from much longer stays in astral realms.  Surely these people have much to teach ES too!  But ES does interestingly claim that he persuaded Martin Luther that some of his new insights were correct, adding that he failed to make a dent in Calvin's worldview. His debates with the famous suggest a recognition that spirits evolve new perspectives as they explore and study over there, even after their initial "schooling." 

ES's most recent biographer points out tha ES did perform retrievals, but retrievals are not mentioned in his classic work, "Heaven and Hell." In ES's terms, retrievals would certainly imply astral spiritual growth.

Don

Matthew, the classical church dotrine of the Trinity--3 Persons in one and one in three--is a later Catholic construct that can't really be read back into the New Testament.  So I don't really consider ES's perspective on this heretical.

Pratekya, your reply #5 seems to suggest that you believe the New Testament teaches the eternal damnation of unbelievers.  The early church taught that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.  If they remain in hellish conditions, that is their choice, not God's.  I have developed threads on Christian retrievals from Hell before.  Would you like me to start another one on the misconception that the Bible teachers eternal damnation?

Also, yeah I'm still interested in hearing from anyone about tips for changing our internal motivation; I'm not asking how do we do the right thing, I'm asking how to we change our innermost selves so that we want to do the right thing more often and our actions eventually show that to be the case as a natural consequence.  Jesus has a passage about this in John 15 about abiding in him and we will bear much fruit; I'm not sure practically how this happens.

Good point, b2, but its more than just practicing the act of being loving.  Its feeling it, and moving away from ego related motivations, so that you honestly have no selfish/self serving, motive behind everything you do.
That is what ES is saying.  The loving person is loving in their feeling/core - this is not something to be imitated, but felt.

M

DocM wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2009 at 10:35am:


I think of the Park as a sort of multifaceted, adaptive, Ellis Island kind of place.  A point of entry into the vast territory of the 'new world' for the deceased.  Your "initial pit stop after passing over" fits to some extent.  The Park, with its specific features and characteristics, that I am familar with is only a Focus 27 place, though it is probably true that many other places have their own form of a point of entry. 

I have encountered points of entry in other places, often in the Belief System Territories versions of the Heavens of various religions.

As an aside . . .

I remember heading out with a friend on some nonphysical exploration or other when we both unexpectedly stopped after being called to by an elderly lady.  Standing in front of her we noticed that she was all dressed up in white, glowing clothes and behind her were these huge, white gates.  The gates looked like wrought iron in shape and construction but the were painted with a thick, white, sparkling pearl-like substance.  The lady did her best to welcome us and induce us to both pass through the Pearly Gates into her heaven, saying we should be happy that we had arrived at the Gates to Heaven.  Since that wasn't what we had planned to explore we thanked the lady and told her we had other places to visit instead.  She had a very shocked look on her face as we flew off into the darkness.

Back to the Park . . .

Many of the newly deceased are probably in some sort of Stage 1 mental state when they arrive at the Park.  Kind of like Ellis Island, each person brought with them the habits, customs, beliefs, etc. from their life in their old country and culture.  Each of these folks are usually individually met by a Helper (or Guide if you prefer) who assists them in becoming aquainted with the new world they have arrived in.  The Helper is assisting with what for some will be a gradual shift toward being a, sort of, Stage 3 'resident'.

There are other areas of Focus 27, most notably the Health and Rejuvenation Center, where there are lots of folks who are probably Stage 1 and Stage 2 in terms of their mental state.  Some of these have carried the 'habit' of a disease, injury or other medical or mental condition into their afterlife experience.  These folks are typically brought here as soon after death as possible by Helpers to receive 'treatment' for their conditions.  Helpers who 'work' at this Center assist these folks with resolving whatever the condition is.  The 'conditions' range from simple things like missing limbs and aches and pains to those folks who are comatose or severely deranged.

So, I would say that in my opinion you are correct in assuming that their might be Stage 1 and Stage 2 types in Focus 27.  But, they are actively given opportunities to shift toward Stage 3 with the assistance of whatever resources or Helpers might be required to accelerate the pace of the transision.

Bruce

Swedenborg's terms "interior" and "exteriors" of a soul indeed need to be interpretated, as he, at least in the above excerpt, wasn't aware of some problems in understanding this.

What he obviously didn't want to say is that the interior of a soul is unchangeable, because that would mean you can think or do what you want, finally it all doesn't matter as your interior won't change anyway. Then Swedenborg's work itself would be pointless.

So, the interior must be changeable. This now, for me, means that the interior must be influencable by what Swedenborg gathers under the term "exteriors" of a soul: What one does, says, how one behaves under the conditions of one's specific environment. As it would be rather odd to think that the interior changes from itself, independently from the exterior (as in this case our physical existence seemed to be pointless), it seems as if old, strong habits (exteriors) can influence the interior, if not become a part of the interior.

In the above excerpt Swedenborg seems to mean with "interior" something we would expect to find during a long, honest and careful self-exploration, maybe in meditation. I won't characterize this simply as "thoughts" as opposed to "speech". It's probably something which is not really describable in words, and is definitely not any thoughts, no matter what thoughts.

Swedenborg, in that, is emphasizing individuality and self-responsibility.

Spooky

Hi Spooky and Vee,

Vee, thanks for the reference. I'm sure there are answers to find there.

Spooky,

Yes, I agree - the state of one's interiors is changeable, otherwise there would be no point to any existence.  I don't believe that ES truly meant the second stage of death or the state of our interiors is unchangeable; only that it is a slower state of our pure/true inclination and intentions.

From my readings, the state of our interiors is the true state of our soul at the time - our true loves, passions, etc.  This state, as Kathy alluded to is like unto a "potential" state which guides our actions.  As such, I believe it is not a state to change quickly or with by quick argument or reason and rationality. 

The state of one's exteriors definitely reflects the state of one's interiors (how could it not?)  Yet repetition of good deeds just for the pretense of being good does not change anything.  You are right however, Spooky, in assuming that life on eath with both states (exteriors and interiors) appears to allow us to try out different levels of love or hate, and then change our interiors accordingly.

Those who revel in anger and hatred find, at some point that they are unhappy, and reaping what they sow.  Perhaps we learn this more quickly while alive on earth, and this has something to do with our reason for being incarnate here.  Perhaps in the afterlife or spiritual planes, there is also evolution and salvation (ability to change the state of one's interiors), yet it happens by nature more slowly than it does while alive with this mixture of "exteriors and "interiors" which we have while alive on earth. 

I will post the passage of ES on the second stage of death soon.

Matthew

The issue is, Alan, that by this theory, of stages, we are all initially much the same way we were when alive in our "first stage" of death.  As if we wake up in the spiritual plane, and see ourselves much like we were before. 

As the exteriors of the first stage fall away, our true motivation and driving force becomes apparent.  Thus, a sadistic man, while on earth pretended to be good and just (give to the poor, a community leader, etc.).  Yet in the second stage of death, he drops the pretense.  If his love is to hurt others, he does not try to conceal it.  He thus willingly seeks out an afterlife plane where others share his love of hurting others.

My reason for writing about this was to point out that when we contact others, if they are in the first stage of death, they will have responses and thoughts most like us while alive.  So who is it we most frequetnly contact?  And is it more difficult to contact those who have dropped the "exteriors" of earth life (including the mask of civility, and the superego which holds our inner nature in restraint?) 

The "real afterlife" comment was meant to address our inner nature which comes out.  The first stage of the afterlife is merely the complex human, discarnate with his/her exteriors and interiors still in place.


M

Vajra,

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It might be useful to start by saying that Monroe's focus levels were defined by him as being based on the kinds of people he found inhabiting various areas of Consciousness.  His 'C1' (physical reality) through Focus 27 were areas he defined as areas of 'human consciousness.'  So, to talk about what might be beyond Focus 27 we would be talking about areas of Consciousness inhabited by 'non-humans.'  These could be other life forms like plants, animals, rocks, aliens, etc.  But I think what you are asking about is more along the lines of, 'what happens for us humans as a result of going through this whole system of focus levels.'  Perhaps this with an eye toward 'what purpose is served' or 'why do we put ourselves through all this wierdness in the first place?'  In Voyage to Curiosity's Father, my fourth book, there are lots of answers to those questions that I have come to believe, not that anyone else should believe them, but I do. 

I've explored a place I refer to in Curiosity's Father as the Land of Angels which is a place that Graduates of this human 'school' appear to inhabit.  If one of the primary purposes of enrolling in this human area of Consciousness is to learn to experience and express Pure Unconditional Love (PUL) these Graduates have completed that purpose.  For them every act they commit is one of PUL.  In terms of location within Monroe's focus level system my opinion is that the Land of Angels is at or near the very outter fringes of Focus 27.  The inhabitants of that area appear to interact with other humans within any of the focus levels I am aware of and probably with humans in other areas that I am not aware of.  The inhabitants also appear to interact with other life forms that exist beyond the boundaries of the areas of human consciousness.
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There are many means to do this and several are described in my third book, Voyages into the Afterlife.  Basically, for most of us, examining ourselves after a physical lifetime we may decide we'd like to experience another physical lifetime.  We chose which of our 'personality traits' will be emphasized and which muted as a way to guide ourselves through the approaching moment of our birth and that lifetime.  We do this to cause ourselves (during the lifetime) to be drawn toward some areas of experience and repulsed from others.  We may chose the timeframe of our birth, our parents, country, culture, etc.  We are free to make any choice for the approaching lifetime that we are aware is available to us.  We are free to listen to Helpers, Guides, etc. to assist us in becoming aware of more choices available to us.  Then at some point we pick the entry point within time/space for our birth and enter through a process described in detail in the third book.

Sometimes we may have gotten ourselves so 'lost' that we re-enter a lifetime without our conscious awareness, ill prepared, and do our best to find ourselves again.
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It would take a rather large book to describe the full range of possibilities.  I could start by asking you, What part of the 'self' you were as a child continues to exist to this day?   Would you say that some parts of your childhood self no longer exist?  Or would you say that they do (probably) exist but that you are just living your life now through other parts of your self at the moment?  For me the latter comes closest to describing an answer to your question.  No part of me ever ceases to exist, it just folds into and becomes the parts of myself that I now express my individuality through.
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Why would anyone want to do such a thing?  'Escape' makes it sound as though we had no part in deciding to enter into and join this 'death/afterlife/rebirth cycle.'  It also assumes that we exist within one and only one area of consciousness at any given point in our existence.  That concept is so foreign to me it is hard for me to think in those terms anymore.  In my view we exist within many, many areas of consciousness symultaneously.

Personally, I view my lifetime Here as a welcomed vacation from eternity.  While being focused 'over There' the fact that we are eternal beings who exist forever is a more 'in your face' kind of thing.  Frankly, knowledge of the eternal nature of our being can get boring after a while.  Focusing Here, in a physical lifetime, seems to block awareness of ourselves as eternal beings.  It's kind of a welcomed relief for some of us.
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Again, I would call it a sort of rearranging of which parts of Self I chose to express through, rather than 'some sort of dissolution of the individual self.'  But like the 'Bardo teaching' your refer to, my understanding is just based on my beliefs that spring from my limited experience and understanding of the whole subject.
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Or one could say, Joe dies . . . and then choses to emphasize a different set of his personality traits to experience his next incarnation through.  Joe didn't dissolve, all the original parts are still there, just emphasis on a different set of his parts.

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In my view, yes, that is possible.  That's why I developed the third workshop, Self Discover and Self Healing.  The primary goal of this workshop is to teach folks how to retrieve Aspects of self that are often a sort of shell or fragment of the Whole person often stuck within the effects of beliefs or traumas.  In my view it is also possible that what we are in contact with is the whole person, or at least the majority of that person's 'parts.'

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Both arguments assume that it is possible to be separated from 'God' or some 'higher level of ego mind.'  This is another concept that is so foreign to me that I can no longer think in those terms.  For me such a separation is not possible except to the extent that we can cause ourselves to believe it's true and thereby be, temporarily, unaware of our connection.  Lack of awareness of this connection is part of what I mean by 'a vacation from eternity.'

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I would say that there are as many 'other' views as there are individual awarenesses in existence.

Bruce