Don:

Regarding predictability, I've experienced things during retrievels that were completely a surprise. For example, here's a retrieval I shared before. One night while meditating I saw the face of a man, and he seemed to be in pain and needed help. It occurred to me that perhaps he needs to be retrieved.  The image I saw of him didn't last, so I imagined myself speaking to him for a short bit. Before I knew it I found myself standing next to him by a cliff that was by an ocean. I spoke to him in retrievel terms. He jumped into the ocean where a bunch of rocks could be found. I jumped in after him. I spoke to him while submerged under water. I got the impression that he committed suicide by jumping off the cliff. Suddenly we were out of the water and standing at the top of the cliff again. Suddenly, to our left, accross a bay, that was connected to the ocean we jumped into, the image of Jesus appeared. Gold light emanated from him and filled the landscape. Not in rays like one would expect, but in swirrels, minature waves. The man I was trying to help forgot all about me, and floated to where the image of Jesus was in a timeless way. I say timeless, because he got to where Jesus was without having to float quickly.

This was before I seriously tried to find out what Christ is about, so it was a surprise that the image of Jesus appeared during this experience.

This was early on during my retrievel history. I didn't try to obtain verifiable information like I had during other retrievels. What took place was too surprising to worry about verifiable evidence. It didn't take long before it wasn't needed at all.

I agree that a person should find a way to make certain that what he or she experiences is bonified, rather than imagined.

Hi Lucy-
As I've said a good many times, I truly believe that all of us, from the dullard out there mopping the hog wallow to the genius scientist hogging the spotlight, have all the required experiences for complete enlightenment and entry into Nirvana. BUT I also note that very often the experiences are misunderstood, argued with, rejected, trivialied or simply discarded because we aren't ready yet.

So you've had a spontaneous manifestation of some kind of spook, and from other experiences you've sensed that your life is more than a random series of blind choices. That implies that there's nothing wrong with your psychic apparatus.

Instances that we tend to miss are the little synchronies, such as reaching for the phone to call your best bud, only to find that she's already there calling you. Or the ability to discover a parking space precisely where and when needed. And then there's the famous injunction to "watch out what you wish for" because you are going to get it. Or gettng into a justified snit at somebody and having the street lights blink out as you drive past them.

Other things that we tend to miss are the moments of understanding as some obscure notion all of a sudden falls together and makes sense. Spinning around your room is a nice demonstration that there's more than the physical world. Of course we argue about it later because we can't scrape it off the walls and sell it, nor are visions going to fill your stomach. And in this way, we take a prodound experience and talk it to death, trivalize its import and abandon its message.

The people that were on that site evidently grossly OD'd on their elixers, as evidenced by blacking out. However the geometric experiences and recollections that placed them in historically prior locations all tend to suggest that the only reason we don't have such experiences all the time is because we intentionally tune them out. Most who published their experiences have also discovered that a just barely sufficient dose is likely to produce a state similar to Myer's description of Hell. - Its harmless, does not take away self control, and I found it overwhelming, dramatically intrusive, unpleasant and painful - rather like being strained through a sieve. I find that fascinating! I'm tinkering with an explanation, but am not there yet.

Maiby I shud werk on a knew prudocall.

dave

Hi,

Looking at your experience with this author-fellow, Lucy---and using hind-sight and slow motion-
you said you  'developed a fear.'  That sounds like you're acknowledging that the fear built up in stages, perhaps from a simpler, less sinister base of sensing his interest in knives,  even sensing that he was keeping his interest secret from you. Then your Interpretor took over and the turned it into a TV-type suspense mystery: will he use his knife on me--?  Good grief, Lucy, that sounds like something I would do.

If so, it would seem that any 'protocol' would have to emphasize staying close to the original impulse of knowing, before the 'developing' begins. Maybe the original impulse is always a subject and not a verb. (I don't know. I'll have to wait until my next experience to  test that.)

Another maybe in seeking the protocol--maybe some of us have overly reactive Interpretors that have been conditionned by prior events. Are all Interpretors 'the voice of truth', or the voice of as they see it? Does the perceiver's prior life affect their Interpretor? If so, Interpretor cannot be part of protocol until it gets its act cleared up.

I know hind sight cannot be part of a protocol--    I was just kidding in that.  But the slow-mo seems absolutely necessary to catch the impression before Interpretor does.

Is this allowed, to keep Interpretor out of the equation?

recoverer wrote on Jan 14^th, 2008 at 8:17pm:



  I agree as well, but at the time, it's rather limiting to want and to expect this to come in only in a very left brain kind of way. 

   As you have mentioned before using different words and expressions, sometimes our feelings are a good indicator of the truthfulness, and expansiveness of a particular experience and consciousness state.  Like your night in Heaven experience, why would you doubtfully question the veracity of same, if you were so filled with joy, peace, and deep knowing that it was truthful?

  Feelings are rather hard to quantify, measure, and label precisely, and so those who are constantly looking for verification in both their own Retrieval endeavors, and in relation to others, may only rarely find what they are looking for.  Sure, there is hard core verifiable data out there to collect, but not everyone is equipped to consistently provide it, because oft that depends a good part on their innate balance between Yin-Yang, Feminine-Masculine, and Right brain-Left brain aspects.

  I've experienced a lot of more left brain type verifications in relation to guidance, this is because i've had a lot of "precognitive" psychic experiences.    But at the same time, i'm not worried about verification because i trust more than not at this point.

  That trust, faith, and belief in, is something that Jesus himself talked quite a bit about the importance of if one wanted to open up to Kingdom of Heaven within/without.    He didn't approach others like Don does saying constantly, "you must be skeptical of everything, must question everything and only believe after you get material, left brain specific, hard data verifications on your experiences."   

  Sure, he advised using discrimination, and he didn't tell us to throw out the left brain aspect, but he never advised to concentrate on it.   The left brain's job is to perceive and act upon the differences in Creation.    And since the physical dimension is so polarized and so based on differences (too much so), the left brain can become very materially minded, very narrow and overly critical in nature.   

  Sometimes to gain a balance, we have to temporarily shift more to the right brain and Heart aspect, and (only temporarily) give up that super critical, concentrate on differences, side of us. 

Sometimes we have to get more in touch with our feeling nature, especially us men and maybe especially American men and some others (many cultures degrade the Feminine and the feeling nature, but certain ones are more brutal than others in smashing it out of young boys.)

Once we have learned the state of "Heartness", of a more pure right brain approach, then we can go back and ever more merge the the left and right brain, head and heart aspects. 

  One of the differences between Jesus and spiritual/religious teachers of his day who for the most part, many did not like him one iota, was that Jesus was in touch with his Feminine feeling nature, and better yet was very balanced and merged between the two. 

Whereas the Pharisees, Sadducee's, Scribes, etc. many seemedl over polarized to the Masculine, and operated too much from the left brain aspects of self.    Too structured and rigid, and Yang/Masculine if overly concentrated on can become too structured.   Yin/Feminine is more flowing and receptive, we don't want to become purely Yin, but we ever need a balance between same.

  Don, i don't mean to say this in a judgmental way (i'm not feeling any ill feelings towards you when i say this), but i sense that you are way too overly polarized to the masculine and to the left brain, and in regards to certain approaches and emphasis's,  you are not exactly teaching what Jesus himself taught.   
If you are a student of same, shouldn't you have a similar emphasis and attitude?   I feel that if you got more in touch with your receptive feeling and Feminine nature, and foster a greater balance, you would understand that one doesn't have to have verifications only in a data, left brain kind of way, that one can definitely feel the truth or not of an experience via their feeling nature if they are clearly receptive and balanced enough.

But, it helps a person to have a belief in this beforehand, this helps to open them up to that kind of reality and way of being.   You don't absolutely need it, as some of Albert's experiences have shown, but it definitely does help on average and in a more consistent sense.

Greetings Don and Posters,

'Protocol:
3 a formal or official record of scientific experimental observations.
• a procedure for carrying out a scientific experiment or a course of
medical treatment.'

Maybe the reluctance to establish a protocol for retrieving is just that, as recoverer said, there are always surprises.

As few as I've done, i find some have happened as soon as I got quiet, others deep into early a.m. sleep. Some have developed without my recent intention, some I requested and they came quickly.

Since we are still explorers in 'new' territory, perhaps the extent of guidance here has already been given us in writings of Moen etc. Any further expectations might limit, rather than expedite, the process.

If you're teaching through rhetorical questions, don, maybe you could give us what you think would be a good start and see if we can work with that?

Betson

[Betson: ] "If you're teaching through rhetorical questions, don, maybe you could give us what you think would be a good start and see if we can work with that?"
_________________________________________________

Let's begin with an obvious but neglected starting point--the potential for a dialogue with an astral guide who takes the initiative and guides the conversation.  The characters in our dreams can seldom sustain anything like an illuminating dialogue for long.  They are constructs of our imagination and, in the sleeping state, we are normally far less aware and rational than in our waking state.  From my reading of books on astral travel, the so-called guides are predictably passive in a way that might be expected if they mere constructs of our imagination.  Robert Bruce reports a puzzling ineptness of his spirit OBE contacts when he tries to ask them about the details of their discarnate lives.  To determine if these guides are real and independent of our imagination, we must explore their capacity to provide extensive lectures which transcend our priior preconceptions.  We must determine whether and to what extent they can remain engaged with us during ever increasing question and answer sessions.  The guides should be able to help us establish the right protocols for more meaningful verification.  Their failure to do so should be construed as the need of our unconsious to protect the integrity of our fantasy's illusion.  

The case is analogous to the so-called House of Knowledge in Focus 27 that allegedly contains the answers to the universe's important questions.  Many have claimed to have explored this awesome house, but have failed to advance the cause of verifiable knowledge one iota.  Astral explorers often unwittingly provide the ammunition that shoots down the legitmacy of their claim to explore other dimensions with real spirits.  If they are truly engaged in an honest quest for afterlife truth, endless experiments can be devised to probe the limits of new knowledge to be gained from spirit guides.  So far the deafening silence of these "guides" on issues that might advance verifiable knowledge is eloquent testimony to the human capacity for self-delusion.

Don

Bets.

Of course, I may have overlooked factors that make my proposed experiments impossible.  But this impasse can only be determined by pressing the limits of what can be discovered.  Let the guides explain why proposals like mine are unfeasible or undesirable.  Modern science progresses through testing, falsification, and verification.  Attempts to rationalize our evasion of this approach just condemn astral exploration to a realm of blind faith and exciting subjective experiences that may nor may not reflect afterlife survival.  I think the stakes are too high to retreat to an insulated ghetto mentality.  Over the years, I have been struck by how seldom the popular New Age radio program "Coast to Coast" features guests with any capability to engage the research of mainstream scientists and other investigators.  Listening to that program is like listening to a suspense-filled movie.  One feels no need to take anything seriously once the "buzz" of the sensationalism wears off.  

I don't use ghetto rhetoric to offend, but as an accurate description of a major barrier to knowledge that afflicts churches as as well as the New Age movement.  My sermons routinely offend conventional sensibilities by challenging sacred cows and, so far, the response has been overwhelmingly positive.  I believe that playing it safe guarantees spiritual stagnation.  The downside is that to be truly helpful one must take risks that sometimes backfire.  Unintended occasional offense is a necessary evil to help fill seekers with wonder and help them engage spiritual issues with the childlike wonder of a beginner's mind. Insulation from a sincerely critical eye generally guarantees a cultic mentality that unwittingly associates rationality with the misleading agreement of likeminded people.  When I was a boy, I marvelled that I was born into a  home that knew all the currently available spiritual truth.  Then it dawned on me that mine was a universal attitude that seduced believers into cultic conformity.

Let me share my favorite cartoon.  A fish is leaping out of the ocean and frantically pointing down to the water below.  Another fish lurks below with a puzzled expression on its face.  The leaping fish points down and says, "That's the stuff I'm talking about."  

Don