Doc said: isn't ESP then by definition a phenomenon beyond the physical world?
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I think esp is accurately named as extra...sense...perception.

I think it is a series of electrical impulses upon the right hand side of the brain, the more receptive side, and the left side deals with interpretation of the extra perception.

the verification aspect is a detail received that neither the subject nor the medium knew beforehand, which could be verified by a 3rd party.
for my own personal verification I was talking and meeting with my grandmother purely as an experiment with no real expectations. she told me before she died she had asked my mother to give me a black brooch.
after I was done talking to her about this and that, and this through feelings and sometimes a word or two filtered through...I went downstairs to speak with mother why I had not recieved the jewelry.
I had known nothing about this. Mother then got a sheepish look on her face, and she knew I had been talking with nanny, as she herself talked with her all the time.
they were very close.  then she told me it had gone to Joan my sister.
so here was my verification, there was no one's mind to read, mother was downstairs and had was not thinking of nanny's jewelry.

and to top it off, I had been just having a silly, relaxed chat with nanny about the charleston dance and her hairdo back then, and there was PUL. it was nice. I was just ending the conversation when I felt her pull me back in to tell me about this brooch thing. I wasn't looking for any sort of verification, I just wanted to try out Bruce's description on making contact, to see if it would work for me. so being pulled back that way, with a little excitement I felt on nanny's part, to "ask mother about the brooch" I thought that was a special treat, and this was Nanny's way of reminding mother, I was her daughter, the one she thought didn't belong to the family, and nanny was working on getting us together, so hard, so there double verification. at least for me.

love, alysia

Hi, some research on the matter at hand.

Telepathy is more than 'instinct'. It is mind to mind contact-- communication of one mind with another by means beyond the normal or ordinary--without the use of the five senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell). Scientifically it is the 'instinct' in mankind that creates the ability that we call telepathy, clairvoyance, psychic abilities, etc.  We have forgotten have how to rely on our basic instincts, which is intuition, because of our reliance on ego-consciousness. Nature has programmed this ability into all of its creatures, but because man places so much reliance’s on 'ego-consciousness' he has forgotten how to use the survival mechanism ie. psyche which is there for survival. Age groups: Babies / Very young children:

They telepath all the time: "Hungry, Sleepy, Wet, Happy, Bored" -- Babies have not as yet developed 'ego-consciousness' so they rely more on instinct.

. Telepathy can be perceptive or projective. Some people are better receivers while others are better senders. If you know who is calling you before the phone rings--then you are a good receiver. The caller thinks of you and you connect vibrationally. It is also fun to send a mental message to someone to contact you and see if they do. Telepathy and Dreams Dreams also
bring telepathic messages. Often this is the way a deceased loved one will communicate with you. Try to remember the message as soon as you get up. In dream time we relate on those higher realities therefore we telepath with each other.

We can communicate with deceased entities, spirit guides, even people who are presently alive. When you dream you communicate telepathically with many entities. Some of this information you remember. Most you do not. Yet even if you do not remember consciously the messages received will impact into your conscious mind throughout the day usually guiding your decisions. The most common published accounts of telepathy and ESP are between lovers or between family members, and focus on a life-threatening injury or death. These people know how to tune into each other's frequencies as they spend time together. There is usually a strong desire to communicate between two distant (separated) individuals.



   All of the energy of the soul does not incarnate, the soul creates a
personality from those parts of itself that it wants to heal in the physical environment, and from those parts of itself that it lends to the process of healing in that lifetime. So powerful is the energy of the soul that it could not advance into a physical form without, literally, exploding that form. In the creation of a personality, the soul calibrates parts of itself, reduces parts of itself, to take on the human experience. Your higher self is that aspect of your soul that is in you, but it is not the fullness of your soul. It is a smaller soul self. Therefore, "higher self" is another term for "soul", yet the soul is more than the higher self

Intuition can permit the personality, through its higher self, to receive information from other souls of higher process, souls that are not its own soul. Sources of guidance other than your own higher self can come across on the same radio station, so to speak. This is not the same as an intuitive process. This is a process of receiving guidance through intuitive channels. Receiving information through intuitive channels is significantly different from receiving information through intuitive processes. Receiving information through intuitive processes is cooking at home. Receiving information through intuitive channels is ordering out.

Each human soul has both guides and Teachers. A guide is not a Teacher. Guides are what might be thought of as experts in certain fields that are called in for consultation. If you are writing a book, for example, or creating a project, or organizing an event, a guide that has the quality of warmth, or creativity, or insight that you wish to incorporate into your work is available to you

•      Energy continually pours through you, entering at the top of your head and descending downward through your body. You are not a static system. You are a dynamic being of Light that at each moment informs the energy that flows through you. You do this with each thought, with each intention.

•      The creation of physical experience through intention, the infusion of Light into form, energy into matter, soul into body, are all the same. The distance between you and your understanding of the creation of matter from energy is equal to the distance that exists between the awareness of your personality and the energy of your soul. The dynamic of soul and personality is the same dynamic as energy converted into matter. The system is identical. Your body is your conscious matter. Your personality is the energy of your soul converted to matter. If it is unaware, it is the splinteredness that is transmitted. If it is aware, it begins to become whole.

Research by

alan

DocM,

Glad you decided to start this thread.  I personally find it hilarious that it wasn't so long ago when scientists claimed that ESP did not exist and that since all cases of supposed ESP could be explained away as collusion or fraud they must in fact be collusion or fraud.  Afterall the scientists argued, there is no scientific evidence to prove the existence of ESP, so obviously it MUST be fraud.  I see some visitors here using this same sort of ridiculous, laughable, flawed, logical argument.

Then, a few scientists began to actually investigate ESP.  They actully ran experiments to determine if ESP exists and their data proved what the rest of us who have experienced ESP events already knew.  ESP phenomenon are real, ESP does exist.  So now scientists claim that ESP does exist and since there is no scientific evidence to support the survival of consciousness after death, any such claims can be explained as ESP reading of "the sitter."  And, since it can be explained by a known phenomena, ESP, all claims of such afterlife evidencey MUST actually be ESP reading of the sitter.  (they conviniently forget to mention that they have no understanding of what ESP actually is)  And again, some visitors here continue to use this same, ridiculous, flawed logic.

When enough scientists do enough real investigation they will discover what the rest of us who have experienced contact and communication with those who continue to survive after death already know, our human afterlife is real.

As you rightly point out, "western science does not have (as yet) a valid working model of human consciousness."  Lacking such basic understanding it is easy to see how scientists could jump to the conclusion that ESP of the sitter explains away afterlife contact and communication.  But to those scientists I would say, extraordinary claims require extraordinay proof.  I say to scientists making the claim it's gaining access to information using ESP of a living person, okay, PROVE IT!

In my view they will find the flaws in their logic and theory when they discover that sometimes the information accessed through purported afterlife contact is not known to any physically living person.  That should be cause to intentionally design experiments with the goal of getting this kind of information.

That's why I teach folks who are attempting to prove to themselves that our afterlife truly exists to use the Basic Premise, which says:

1.  Find a way to make contact and communicate with someone known to be deceased.
2.  Gather information from that deceased person you have absolutely no way of knowing except via that contact and communication.
3.  Find a way to determine whether or not the information is accurate and true.
4.  If you can verify that it is accurate and true you have gathered evidence (not proof) that the deceased person continues to exist after death.
5.  Continue this process until the weight of your evidence proves our afterlife's existence to you.

Everyone who undertakes this course of action must understand that evidence gathered by someone else will NEVER provide proof to anyone except the person who gathered it.  Bersek2 seems to repeatedly miss this point.  He points to the fact that none of the evidence on this site is very persuasive to him.  He seems to expect to find convincing proof in the experiences of those visitors who have gathered their own evidence.  News Flash - - Berserk2 - - that will NEVER happen.  I have never made any claim that it would, on the contrary, I have always pointed to the Basic Premise as the only way presently available for it to happen at all, through the direct experience of the person gathering such evidence.  There will ALWAYS be the possibility of alternate explanations by those who did not directly experience its gathering.  Even those who directly experience it will doubt their own experience.

Will people make mistakes and believe they have real evidence and proof when they don't?  Of course they will.  The only way such evidence can presently be gathered is the highly subjective process of experience within one's own mind.  Of course there will be the influence of misundertandings, belief, expections, etc.  That is why the 5th line is in the Basic Premise.  Each time we gather more evidence there is the possibility that new evidence will conflict with our understanding of previous experience and evidence.  It is a process of experimentation and evidence gathering in which the only "sensor" or "measuring device" is our own mind.  It is subjective experience Berserk2, and can't, by its very nature prove anything, I get that.  Exactly the same thing could be said of existence of ESP phenomenon before properly designed experiments were run and evidence gathered.  And instead of carping on the obvious and calling people who disagree with me names and members of a new age ghetto, I chose to try to find ways to help folks to run their own experiements with the tools available to them.  And many have used the Basic Premise to prove to themselves our afterlife exists, their experiences have proven it to them.  But don't expect their evidence will EVER convince you or anyone else of that.  Anyone who believes that these people are just members of a "new age ghetto" will never take their experience or evidence as anything but fantasy.  Perfect!  That is what I have been saying all along Berserk2, you have to gather it your self.  So maybe instead of carping and name calling you could start gathering your own evidence and give tips to others about what worked for you and what didn't. 

Speaking of "tools available" why do you think I have such a strong interest in the development of electronic devices that could allow real-time voice communication with those who exist beyond physical reality?  Because with the advent of such devices the "sensor" shifts from subjective to objective.  The evidence can be measured with physical world instruments.  Are their any such devices available?  Yes, in my view.  Are they developed to the point that they are widely available?  With the possible exception of white-noise-based EVP, no.  Is evidence from any of these device conclusive?  Depends on who you ask, the person who directly experienced using the device or someone else.  For the "some elses" in the world the answer is, Of course not, yet. 

After the Wright Brothers historic first flight they returned home and continued to experiment at their farm outside of town.  Occassionly passersby who would witness one of their test flights would stop in town at the local newspaper office to report what they had seen.  The newspaper didn't even bother to send a reporter out to the Wright's farm to investigate these claims for something like a year and a half.  Afterall the editor had remarked, everybody knew it was impossible for men to fly so it would have been a waste of time to send a reporter.

I will get down off my soap box now,

Bruce

First if all, the spirit World and physical World aren't actually seperate, therefore, the source of information can come from different places. Thought energy is thought energy, regardless of which form it comes in. Even if it comes in the form of thoughts somebody makes up.

Regarding making contact with spirits, I've been doing so on a regular basis for almost three years now, and so many things have taken place, it would be ridiculous for me to believe that spirit communication isn't taking place, mixed in with a few other things, including psychic noise which comes from who knows where.

I didn't assume right away that I was communicating with spirits. A fragment of my mind was really stubborn about it, and I took detailed notes and considered all the possibilities. It helped that I received some information through visual means that I had no way to know about and was able to verify. But such a way of verification was just a small part of what allowed me to understand what was and still continues to take place.

Once one determines for one's self that communication with beings "who have moved onto the light" is possible, one has no need to doubt that others can do the same, no matter how many fake examples exist.

I think that this thread has been important in pointing out the vagueries of the term ESP, and assuming ESP is a well defined logical science.  Living (incarnate) or deceased (discarnate) thought is still thought and I see no reason why someone sensitive to ESP might not also be sensitive to afterlife communication with a discarnate mind.

If the issue is can a medium sometimes channel living people's thoughts, the answer (from the evidence given on this board) is yes - a medium may channel the thoughts of a living person, in error.

Does that negate, in some way information gleaned by the very same medium on discarnate people?  Absolutely not.  This is where my white crow comes in; If and when a medium provides evidence from a truly deceased person that could not be known to the sitter, it is in general proof of a true ADC.

However, it does become complicated, because if the medium can access the collective subconscious, the medium may be privy to a huge stream of data which could include facts and figures.  We are then left with the  uncomfortable lack of proof, and as Bruce said about any evidence gathered:




I was fascinated by the Myer's thread, in that it is implied that Myers tried a new method of ADCs upon his death, which was a pattern of cross communications - giving mediums like Lenor Piper, and others on other continents, small pieces of a message, which could only make sense when put together - and signing them "Myers."  The mind of the sitter, in these cases of communication could have no impact on the message.  There may be an easy refutation as to these Myers' ADCs,, but it was a very clever way to take doubt out of the message, by dispersing it, in a sort of code to different mediums, after which the message would be reassembled (cross communications).

Matthew

That's neat, Dood!

'They say'  that when we anticipate an outcome, it can block the experience from happening. So you as a young dood must have had just the right amount of energy  and innocence to get it moving !    Ah, the days of energy and innocence!

Bets

  So how do we get around this issue?    Setting more specific intentions, and using prayer, i would say.   Also you can give self (or others) suggestions when in a receptive state.   

  If we state an affirmation and set an intention that i only want to hook up with real consciousnesses (meaning who have full freewill and self awareness) existing and operating from the nonphysical spectrum, then chances are 9 out of 10 times this will be so, depending on the initial intensity of focus, the ability to let it go once stated, and positive belief or faith in it working the way you want it too. 

  But even better than that, is the whole, "not my will, but the Creative forces Will be done."  Or "i only open myself up to and receive info and energy from the most helpful and constructive sources there are."