While I fully agree with Hawkeye's and Bet's assessment, that the evolutionary purpose of the incarnation is the driving force, I'm not too sure whether we can differentiate between "Good" and "Bad" purposes any more than we could differentiate between "Good" and "Bad" children.

Hitler, in his own mind, seems to have viewed the world as a place in which he, through his force of will, was going to establish a paradise that would last for three thousand years. He was, according to those who knew him, a very pleasant person, with only a few sexual hangups. He initially wanted to be an artist, and had his art advisors been a little more tolerant, we might never have heard of him again.

In the same way, the Inquisition was a sincere and holy attempt by the Church to save souls by rooting out the witches, sorcerers and such, as well as the Knights Templars. These efforts seemed to merit every contrivance known, merely because the ends seemed to justify the means.

Although Pres Bush has alienated a large number of people by ignoring details of Constitutional law and by making war on another nation, he has not done this because he is a "Bad man", but most likely because he views himself as extremely good, and that his actions are required as his moral God-given duty.

Another example is the theory of "Manifest Destiny" by which the Japanese rulers of a century ago decided that it was up to them to conquer and rule the barbarians in Korea and China. 

We can add the Chinese Liberation of Tibet, in which Mao said that he was acting to free the enslaved peoples from the tyranny of the monks and nuns of the Buddhist government. The subsequent persecution of the religious by Chinese troops was thus to free them of their presumably psychotic attachment to religion.

All of these can be viewed, with a little effort, as good and useful activities. Of course a lot of people got hurt in each case, which is what most of us look at now. But from the viewpoint of the perpetrator, each is an instance of Good Works.

If we compare the general functional level of progressively more complex beings, then even the worst of humans is more advanced than the best of monkeys, or whatever it was that we looked like before we got here today. With that increased competency comes increased responsibility. That seems to be the issue. As an example, if we watch two colonies of ants engage in civil war, caturing the larvae of their opponents and enslaving them to a new purpose, we rarely look at the attackers as "immoral". Instead, we view it as the nature of ants to do those things.

In the same way, we rarely view politicians as unusually evil just because they lie, cheat and steal from the public. We simply assume that this is the nature of the people who go into politics. Historically, politicians are the descendents of the tyrannical warlords who led earlier tribes by the force of their sword or club. So their species seems to be gaining ground a little bit, now that they have largely stopped tormenting their own citizens for sport or spite, and have accepted rule of law (in some cases, anyway).

My suggestion is thus that we have a series of adaptive changes, recalled by many as some kind of transmigration sequence that begins wth a freeform spark emitted from the creative fires of God, and which ends with reabsorption into that same Source. At each level, we are taxed with problems appropriate to lfe at that level. When we resolve those problems and come into a sort of balance, we get kicked into a higher level by virtue of no longer clinging to the past values which seemed important at lower levels. This amounts to a progressive nirvana - echoed by a Tibetan saying, "All persons are Buddha, All sounds are mantra. All reality is nirvana."

Extrapolating from this posture, those who have accepted the Bodhisattvic Vow to return forever for the aid of others, will presumably return to whatever level of the hierarchy of transmigrations that their dedication merits. Let's guess that they will return as pure spirits, to be Helpers for Bruce and others, or to act as Guardian Angels or whatever. There are implied rules and standards of conduct and existence that apply, so that what to us looks like beautiful spirits glowing in the transcendental dark might actually be actions based on some spiritual depravity that we couldn't understand at our level. (As a practitioner of Buddhism, this interests me.)

A side issue pops into mind at this point - assuming that we are not unique in the cosmos, there must have been others of "us" in various other galaxies and solar systems. I wonder if they might be willing to contact us to give us some hints about living. Or - since understanding is state specific - is that even possible? (This gets into Juditha's area of expertise.)

d

Regarding Hitler and such, I believe it is incredibly obvious that the World has been set up so it is possible for people to become mentally deranged in numerous ways. This can be measured not only by the number of leaders such as Hitler, but the numerous people who chose to follow what such leaders have to say.

I believe we are like one giant being, and until each member returns home, we won't be complete.  Despite how things might seem, while in the physical World, we all effect each other much more than we often think. Therefore,  when a particular body part has a problem, rather than amputate it, we should try to heal it.  If we become too focused on some parts of our greater Self being punished severely for the wrong they have done, we'll live according to the same confused mental energy our judged parts lived according to, and never heal our entire Self.

Regarding President Bush and his claim of doing what is best for the people of Iraq, perhaps he forgot to consider that when he was elected to be the president of the United States, the country of Iraq didn't take part in the vote. Regarding the whole WMD thing, give me a break. More than one person who has left the White House stated that President Bush wanted Iraq before 911 happened.  The White House always tries to dismiss such people as some sort of outcast. If you can't get the word from people who were a part of the white house, who can you get it from? If somebody like Condoleezza Rice left the white house all of a sudden and spoke the truth, would they categorize her as an outcast?

I could go on but I won't, because I'm not political.  I really mean that.  I will say this. Going to war because God supposedly wants you to do so, is a bunch of hooey. That would be like him saying I want the right half of my body to beat the hell out of the left side of my body.







[quote author=dave_a_mbs link=1189114265/15#15 date=1189190680]

Although Pres Bush has alienated a large number of people by ignoring details of Constitutional law and by making war on another nation, he has not done this because he is a "Bad man", but most likely because he views himself as extremely good, and that his actions are required as his moral God-given duty.

Of course GB relates it all to the God thing. He is a follower of the religious right. Hes big into oil stocks and what a better way to make more money for himself than to have a war in a country that controls a large part of the worlds oil. what was the first thing he did when he got there? Took control of the oil wells. He said to pay for rebuilding the country. Ya right! More than likely to finance the war and to boost the price of oil so as to make more money for himself and his "people". WMD were not there. Never found after years of searching. But through fear, he convinced the majority of the US to go to war. Now his religious right movement has just what they want. The door way to Armageddon. Muslums vrs Christion. And with the money to get it all going. No thanks George!! Get out and go home. Of course I am not into the whole killing thing and hero worship, like you are raised up in the US. Up here in Canada, and although our missinformed and delusional goverment who is curently kissing the rear of your president and is at war also, the majority of us want to help and peace, not war and the death of Muslums or Islamic religious followers

Thank God a lot of people in the US are ready to get their boys (and girls) home. There is no shame in calling it quits over there. The Christion God is no better than the Islamic or Buddha, or any of the rest. Let them sort it out and then go in and help rebuild. George has and is creating a lot more work for us into recovering. I really don't need the extra work. The Islamic's need to be recovered to ya know, not just ours. (Wait till some of those bombers figure out there are no virgins in heaven. Nor a need for one.)
Joe

Which leads us to the actual core of "consciousness" and that of being "guided" by a Guide.
Is it just me or do others feel it too when looking at Bush. He`s not "real", its hard to explain, but when I see him on CNN, I sense : this man is not real, he`s fake thru and thru. His smiles, his care, his waving, his ego - all of it does not look nor feel genuine   and this leads me to feel that he`s being guided by a Guide to do the things he does.

Lets face it theres a lot more to it than it being striped like a zebra, where one can clearly see the colors on the coat of an animal.

G.W. Bush must be part of a mass stage setting. Since we all know there is no real good or bad, we also "see" the "impact" which the last few years have brought us, has brought forth mass communication. Dismay, love, togetherness but also anger, poverty, price changes in living expenses. Although from my human standpoint I must declare, my ego didnt find it too kosher that 2747 lives had to die in the WTC   , nor did it like to see the execution of Sadam Hussin   on Youtube either. The folks in Irak whom still today live in fear   , even after the person whom dictated has been deceased for a while now. We will see what happens when re-election time comes. As for their incarnation purpose, I love each and everyone of the above equally, for without their playing the part of the stage, I wouldnt have felt the deep rooted emotions which I had been allowed to "feel", without them.

I think I literally cried for hours on end, looking at the pictures on TV and the Net of the WTC, then I balled when I saw the execution of Sadam and I am still crying over seeing the troops being seperated day and night from their loved ones and the people in Irak fearing their next day on earth in uncertainty. They don`t really know if the USA is gonna kill them or their next door neighbor. Does it mean that I stand behind all of the peoples actions playing their roles: My ego says: NO, cause it hurts me too, my soul must have said: YES, or it wouldnt have agreed to the incarnation during this particular epoche.

Do we collectively seek for quality, vanity, quanity, peacefullness or power in the new Pres? Is it about having a Pres who leads us ego driven or one whom leads us concentrating on peace as this can be also achieved without bombs, wars or fighting. It will show what the mass has learned out of this whole ordeal soon.