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The Torment of Teresa (Read 14647 times)
Rondele
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Re: The Torment of Teresa
Reply #30 - Sep 7th, 2007 at 11:29am
 
Matthew-

You say that free will is absolute on the physical plane, and also that if a divine external will were to intervene in the outcome of free will, it would negate having free will in the first place.

However, the article says:

"In September of 1946, then-Sister Teresa had heard a voice calling her to serve the poorest of the poor -- what she interpreted as the voice of Jesus...."

This raises an obvious question- did Teresa really hear a voice calling her to service, and was it Jesus or some other spiritual entity?  And if so, wouldn't that constitute an intervention in the outcome of free will??

Further, we read of countless other cases where a person is apparently being warned of some impending disaster, or being saved from injury or death.  Remember Don's story of the man in line at the ticket counter, waiting to buy a ticket on a flight, and being warned by some inner voice not to board that plane?  And he decided not to board, and the plane did in fact crash with no survivors.

So.....aren't there many cases where there is divine intervention in the outcome of free will? 

R
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DocM
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Re: The Torment of Teresa
Reply #31 - Sep 7th, 2007 at 11:44am
 
Hi Roger,

Personally, I think free will remains absolute in those instances.  MT may have decided to heed her visionary call - or she may have ascribed it to having a stomach flu, and not acted on it. 

Many on this board have intuition or guidance about certain happenings - yet - and this seems to me to be the key, the choice is still up to the person about what to do (or not).  I hit a deer by mistake while driving at twilight a few years back.  As I rounded a curve, I saw the tail of a deer enter the bushes on the left.  "where there is one, there are many" popped into my head, clear as day.  Suddenly from the right, a deer literally lept out unseen at the side of my car. 

Was that voice guidance?  Perhaps.  I didn't change my reaction quickly enough, however.  The animal managed to run away, but I felt it must have been severely injured, and was heartbroken.

My point is that some of us may be given the blessing of divine intervention, grace or guidance, but the free will system remains intact.  And we see the repercussions of our daily choices and actions, and we reap what we sow.  Free will - is still there with or without the guidance.


Doc
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Berserk2
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Re: The Torment of Teresa
Reply #32 - Sep 7th, 2007 at 6:26pm
 
[Roger:] "Further, we read of countless other cases where a person is apparently being warned of some impending disaster, or being saved from injury or death.  Remember Don's story of the man in line at the ticket counter, waiting to buy a ticket on a flight, and being warned by some inner voice not to board that plane?  And he decided not to board, and the plane did in fact crash with no survivors."
____________________________________________

This Sunday my sermon title is "God's Selective Protection."  My biblical text is Acts 12:1-19, the account of how the apostles James was arrested and immediately executed by Herod Antipas.  Peter was arrested shortly thereafter, but his execution had to be postponed for several days until after Jewish Passover.  This delay gave a few days of grace for intercessory prayer.  Unlike James, Peter is miraculously delivered by an earthquake combined with an angelic apparition.  But when he arrives at Mary's house where the prayer meeting is proceeding, no one can believe the initial report that Peter is standing at the door.  James is executed too summarily for the church to convene such a prayer meeting in his behalf.  So the absence of an intercessory prayer meeting for James is not the church's fault.  Still, prayer seems to have made the decisive difference in Peter's deliverance.

I will be exploring similar modern cases in which one believer is divinely protected by a premonition, while others were permitted to die.  You cite the case of Methodist pastor E. Stanley Jones's  premonition in India to abandon the ticket line in the wake of the impending airplane crash that killed all the Hindu passengers.  Similar examples abound.  For example, there was a United Methodist church nearby the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, the scene of Tim McVeigh's bombing.  But several Methodists who would have been in the kill zone during the bomb's explosion were bizarrely protected by a series of coincidences.  For example, the pastor, Nick Harris, was going to tape 4 radio broadcasts at the time of the bombing.  But his sound engineer, Gus Alfonso, forgot to show up at 8:30 am.  Gus was always reliable and had never forgotten his commitment to be there before!  This amnesia, and other similar coincidences, kept several people away from the kill zone in the church sanctuary. 

Similarly, Tom Hawthorne wanted his friend, Ken Harvey, to go to the Murrah building with him that fateful Tuesday morning.  Tom called Ken on Monday night and reminded him to be ready.  At 7:10 am the next morning, Ken called Tom and offered to do the driving.  Tom declined Ken's offer and reminded Ken that he would drive by at 8:30 am to pick him up.  Despite multiple reminders to pick Ken up, Tom was apparently afflicted with a divine amnesia and never kept his promise to pick Ken up.  Tom's body was recovered 5 days after the explosion at 9:02 am.  Even more than the prior case, this case suggests divine deliverance was provided for Ken, but not for Tom.  In this case, both men were devout Christians.  So this refutes any silly claim no Christians are left vulernable in analogous situations.  Several children in the Murrah's day care center also perished in the blast.

Also impressive to me is the case of lawyer, Tom Wise.  His father, Robert, began each day with an hour of prayer during which he prayed specifically that God would cover each of his children with divine protection.  Thirty seconds before the blast, Tom was standing by the window in front of the Murrah Building surveying the business district.  He felt prompted to move away, the bomb exploded, and the ceiling fell on his secretary. 

Of course, one can wonder why those who received no such prolonged prayer support were permitted to suffer.  In my view, God cannot be dismissed as an impersonal sadist; rather, there seem to be some poorly understand spiritual laws at work here that regulate God's ability to intervene in His creation.  But I find the evidence for some paranormal intervention compelling in some of these cases.

Roger, you rightly ask why cases like Leonard's visit from his dead son are not more common.  One can only speculate, but this mystery hardly refutes the credibility of such accounts.  In a future sermon, I will be laying out a comprehensive bibilcal rational for why such apparent inconsistencies seem to abound.

Even so, such fantastic ADCs, though rare, are not as rare as you might imagine.  Take a tangible touch from deceased loved ones as a case in point.  Today I officiated at a burial service for an elderly grandmother.  While alive, she had the habit of sharply poking her daughter Tomi in the chest to make a point.  At the grave, Tomi told me that yesterday she felt relentless sharp poking by an unseen hand in her chest, poking so hard that she took her blouse off to check for bruises!  Two weeks earlier a parishioner was awakened in the middle of the night by a hand carressing her cheek.  It was her recently dead sister's hand.  The sister was glowing in the dark and conveyed the joyful news that she was now happily adjusting to her new heavenly locale.  I'm almost surprised now if parishioners have no such ADCs to report!

Anyway, as you know, these issues involve complicated moral questions, but I thought I'd provide these experiences as good for thought.

Don

 

   

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Rondele
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Re: The Torment of Teresa
Reply #33 - Sep 8th, 2007 at 9:27am
 
Apparently there are several kinds of intervention.  One kind would be that "inner voice" warning we sometimes get about impending danger.  Another kind, more dramatic, would be the manifestation of what I would call an angel for want of a more descriptive term.

The latter kind happened to me as a child.  It was witnessed by two other people (one of whom, unfortunately, was preparing to end my life).  The other was a childhood pal.  At the very instant of maximum danger to me, when I probably only had seconds to live, a woman in a car suddenly appeared out of nowhere along a stretch of a seldom used rural road.

She rolled down her window and asked if we were alright.  The man jumped off of me and ran to his car and sped away.  When my pal and I biked to our summer cottage to tell our parents, the police were called.  We were questioned mostly about the man, type of car he had, etc. 

But when we were asked about the lady, we realized we hadn't seen her drive up (which is understandable since we were under attack at the point), but amazingly we didn't see her drive away.  It was like she vanished along with her car.  That stretch of road was straight with no turnoffs or intersections, there was no way she could have driven off without one of us seeing her.  Thinking back, the entire time we were there, no cars had come by in either direction.  Even today it is not travelled that much.

So I accept the probability that my life was saved by an angel or helper or call it what you will.  That's a pretty big "intervention."

I'm not sure what is more puzzling....who or what saved my life or why was my life saved that day, the same day when I'm sure many other lives were lost that could also have been saved with the same type of intervention.
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DocM
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Re: The Torment of Teresa
Reply #34 - Sep 8th, 2007 at 11:13am
 
Roger,

Wonderful story - and it adds to this site (its what many want to hear, myself included).  Just a quick question, which may mean I'm kind of dense.  If it were in fact a real woman (incarnate) who came up the road and saved you, would it have been of any less cosmic importance or wonder to you or your life? 

Many of those who Swedenborg called angels were human beings, now deceased.  The idea that an angel must be inherently superior (in a cosmic sense)  to an incanated human being is what I am not sure that I believe. 

Doc
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Rondele
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Re: The Torment of Teresa
Reply #35 - Sep 8th, 2007 at 11:43am
 
Doc-

I've often pondered your question.  Yes, it's possible it was just an amazing coincidence and it's possible that we were too upset and distracted to see her drive away. 

Nonetheless, she arrived at the precise moment.  30 seconds either way would not have helped me. 

Even if it was a real woman, her arrival at that instant was, in my opinion, the result of some sort of divine intervention. 

In the years that have passed, my wife and I now own the same cottage where I spent my summers as a kid, and even today, sometimes we drive down that road and I slow down when I get to the ditch where my friend and I were busy catching pollywogs the day I almost died.

R
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Berserk2
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Re: The Torment of Teresa
Reply #36 - Sep 8th, 2007 at 2:15pm
 
Roger and Matthew,

The expression "guardian angel" is appropriate for cases of discarnate protectors such as young Roger's female rescuer.  In both Hebrew and Greek, the term "angel" merely means "messenger."  From my reading, it seems that these rescuers might sometimes be non-human and other times discarnate humans.  By the same token, it seems misguided to focus too much on the nature and reality of "Satan."  The term "Satan" merely means "adversary" and the malevolent being might be a discarnate human or a fallen angel. 

There are at least 5 more important "operational" questions for cases like these: (1) What principles or spiritual laws allow such entities to intervene in our lives?  (2) How much power do these beings have?  (3) How much variance in power do these beings have by virtue of their status (angel, demon, discarnate human)?  (4) Which of the malevolent beings can be held at bay by merely human resistance, experience of PUL, etc.?  (5) Which beings can only be handled through divine intervention (an exorcist, etc.)?  In mysterious realms like these, it pays to take an operational approach to what is transpiring.  It is a big mistake to formulate or embrace a metaphysical belief system first and then assess the credibility of paranormal interventions on the basis of their compatibility with one's preconceived belief system.

Don
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