Hi Boris I love you to and sorry about the jealousy bit,out of order on my part,i also learn from you as well and one good thing about this site,we can all be honest with each other because of the love we all share.

Gods love be with you day by day.

God bless   Love juditha

Hi Boris - it's a hard road, but hang in there.  There's light at the end of the tunnel.

Not sure how it is that confirming a basically unattractive message can somehow amount to help  , but the perception that especially mystical or esoteric traditions don't recognise the suffering that life in this existence is is probably a result of the happy happy message preached by  few of the more populist varieties of religion.

I'm no expert and Buddhism is my greatest familiarity but in essence most of the spiritual traditions  argue something along the following lines. Pardon the sloppy and matter of fact terminology - it's rushed, and it mixes all sorts of usages of words which may be a bit confusing:

1. This reality that we seem to exist in (cosmos, Samsara in Buddhist terminology, the reality that contains this whole cycle of life death, afterlife, re-birth and so on but not the absolute or true reality) seems on first appearance to be ordered on the dog eat dog principle.

2. It's the creation of the ego or collective mind (?) of all the beings (including humanity) that find themselves living in it. Not of God.

3. It's that way because having dreamed/dropped down to a state of consciousness that separated them from God (like in a dream - we lose awareness of other realities) we started to believe in the reality of individuality, started to behave out of self interest instead of love, and in doing so out of ignorance created a reality that functions on that basis.

4. Luckily we have retained (or can't avoid since it's a part of us?) a connection with God/higher mind - via soul/Grace/being a part of God/higher mind.

5. This connection sets up a fundamental tension in all our lives between the urge to live egotistically, or be driven by the delusion of self interest; and the urge to higher consciousness/to live out of love. God/grace or whatever is always there to help us, but free will means we have to reach out.

6. Higher awareness strengthens the God consciousness, while reduced awareness causes us to slide more deeply into the dog eat dog mentality, into efforts towards self/ego aggrandisment, and the suffering it causes for all of us. (how can a world full of individuals all convinced that the only thing that matters is their narrow personal interest be anything except a dog fight?)

7. The spiritual path is basically about raising awareness (it happens naturally out of among other things the reverses of life, but meditative practice/prayer/study/self exploration  leads to faster changes in 'knowns' and speeds it up) so that eventually we become realised, or wholly conscious of God. We see existence from a different (no longer personal) vantage point, and so live through love. By coming to see past the dream that is this reality we become able to transcend it, or to return to the original union with God.

8. This entails our having transitioned to become something else - as a a result of coming to see the truth of love we we no longer see ourselves as ''self', and become and unable to act selfishly. It can be gradual, or it can be a flash of inspiration but essentially we tumble to the fact that the self and the reality it created was essentially not real - we come to see that love is the power which actually runs the world, that our perception that it is dog eat dog is only a selective one. (most who act lovingly find things falling out for the better in ways they could from the perspective of their everyday conditioning never have imagined) We transcend the conventional reality, and it ceases to cause us pain.

9. The problem with all of this is the ego that we have built and which created this reality in the first place - it's insatiably insecure. (since it keeps on trying to maintain the illusion that it's our true self, and that it runs the show) So it likes to chase after cars, men/women, big homes, money, power, whatever to make itself feel better. Others are more subtle and focus on being holier than thou, more knowledgeable than thou, a greater victim than thou or whatever. The short term transitory or often sneaky pleasures of this life.

And the more it succeeds in getting these the easier it is for it to maintain the delusion that it doesn't need God. It probably explains too why trouble, illness, death and the like in our lives tend to drive rapid spiritual opening - they pop the bubble the ego has frantically been trying to build.

10. The tough bit follows from the ego being the conventional personality through which most of us live. We mistakenly decide that it is 'me'. (although higher experience pretty quickly pokes a few holes in that delusion, and starts to show that self is something rather more fundamental) Meaning that in order for us to progress on the path or back to God and away from individuality the ego must progressively die. Every little step of awakening, every little illusion that gets dropped amounts to a little death, and as such is very raw and painful.

11. It hurts like hell if it goes fast. Which is why periods of true opening and experience are always followed pain. This is the true meaning of the 'dark night of the soul'. Didn't Jesus reportedly say something about the need 'to die that ye may live'?? It's not for nothing that there's an old adage that you basically need to have an urge to self destruction to be attracted to the spiritual path. The good news is that we seem to be provided with the means to cope too.

It's not in one way a particularly attractive view of things (it's going to hurt if you go up, but it's going to hurt a lot more if you slip back down), but it does have it's redeeming features. For example it provide a framework from within which it's possible to make sense of the suffering and pain that life delivers.  Not to mention that a taste of the old PUL somehow makes it all not so bad, although as we've talked the reception comes and goes depending on what's going on in your life at the time. (mental intensity/fear/feeling uppity and the like  - the screams of the ego - tend to cause interference) ....

A few verses on this very topic:

Yearning
We walk
Deluded and alone
Yet drawn by spirit
Self burns in light’s clear flame
Towards emptiness
Impending doom
An end
And yet
Awakening

Or:

Care worn,
Love lorn,
Lost,
Yet not.

All wise,
Big heart,
Awake,
Not yet.

Still caught,
‘Tween views,
Torn,
Raw heart.

or

The light
Creeps in
This multicoloured dawn
Brings joy
With pain

Love..

Quote:


I am open to the idea that there is a meaning behind everything and we are welcomed home by loving spirits when we die and all looks clearer in perspective - our learnings and successes and failures etc (and yes sometimes, or perhaps always, suffering provides learning, but sometimes you do wonder if this payoff is enough for pain and disruption caused) - but sometimes I also can;t help but think that the universe as a whole doesn;t seem to "run on love". I mean even in nature, or especially so, there is not that much evidence of it - it is a battle to survive for many animals, and a literally dog eat dog existance. Some one said once that if you think the world is all about love , or is at least weighted towards the positive, then compare the pleasure of an animal eating another one alive with the feeling of the animal being eaten.. Anyway, that's just me looking on the negative side i guess.. but the question of undeserved suffering is one that has been endlessly debated and no doubt will continue to be

As for Mother Theresa, who can say, but maybe the rigid doctrines and unquestioning obedience Catholicism requires don;t help you connect to a satisfying spirituality? I read someone once saying that the really spiritual characters in rigid religions like catholicism and Islam are the excpetions - the sufis and mystics etc who manage not to focus much on the doctrine despite the previaling culture of the religion, and focus on love and feelings of oneenss with God etc

Vajra-
Oh yes - I know the feeling - like when I read poetry that you've written.

As my father used to put it, "You're as much of a poet, as a sheep is a go-at." (Bad pun, sorry.) 

d

Quote:


This has a certain kind of  logic and appeal to it , but then aagin how does it square with what science/history tells us about the ancient history of our planet? We do not know of any time when there was a "golden age" and beings all lived in peace and harmony with each other until we messed things up with the wrong attitudes etc - ? PS I just realised how what you said has an affinity with the Christian idea of a "fall" - not a good or bad thing, just noting

I also would like to give my approval to vajra's paragraph about
the merging of 2 different worlds.

I have hammered away for years about the huge difference in
principle of operation between heaven, and the physical universe,
and the refusal of conventional religion to recognize this,
thinking they are all part of the same thing somehow, which I find
to be impossible, in terms of the basic principles involved.

But I have also noted in my other posts, the fact that I can see my
aura, that I think of as being part of the other world, the unseen
world, (except I happen to be able to see it).

The word "merge" is just what I needed. I am merged, so to speak,
through my aura, which exists in both worlds. I think of my aura as
being a representation of part of my soul, so my soul is the
merging connection. But I am not aware of the extent of my
connection, because of the strange rule of suppression of higher
level knowledge during an incarnation, which we discussed earlier.

This is about the theme of "connection to god" we keep hearing
about from mystical people. Odd realization: our connection to god
is deliberately suppressed during an incarnation. People are always
talking about how we "lost our connection to god" somewhere along
the line. There is all sorts of invented lore along that line, how
we were separated, or are rejoined, whatever. But now it hits me,
this loss of connection to god is built in, part of the rules of
reincarnation. Returnees from NDEs are told "you will forget all
this", when you wake up back on Earth. And they do forget.

This could seem to say that we are deliberately separated from God,
as part of the rules of the game. Like children forget their
previous lives somewhere around age 5 to 7.  Or if we are not
actually separated, at least we are deprived of knowledge of our
connection.   Like, we didn't drift away from God, or fall from God,  rather, God took himself away from us, as part of the game of reincarnation, for some as yet unknown reason.

This leaves me wondering if Mother Teresa's separation from God was
a part of this process, part of the way reincarnation works. Like
when we reincarnate, after a certain point, we are on our own,
normally remembering nothing. So maybe Mother Teresa was left on
here own, after a certain point. (This is only an odd speculation).

My next area of thinking, after accepting the word "merge", is what
is the overall merging situation in general? What about the 500
million years of life before the appearance of humans? Was there
little or no merging?  Or was there always some merging? Was the
physical world left alone to develop using its rules of survival,
as the only thing that mattered? Did the physical world have no
destination until entities with plans and designs appeared? Like
why 150 million years of dinosaurs? When did the higher world take
on its higher character? Did it evolve on a concurrent track, but
with a different character? Did the higher world develop as a
response to what happened in the physical world?

Etc, etc, etc.

>>> and also in Eastern religions there is often the idea of the world just being an illusion or trap of somekind. I am not sure I would be so negative about it myself, although this world certainly has its down sides. <<<

------------------------------


We are talking "illusions" now, and what exactly is an illusion, but a form of reality, as far as I had been able to bottom line it for myself. A person whom finds the world to be a happy little package of goodies, because he/she has everything which is needed to be content with, lives in his/her illusional "reality", whileas someone living on the streets, has no money, no food and no bed to keep warm in this winter also lives in their illusional "reality". Both can "change their circumstance at "any given time" and change their illusion. No matter what it is, a human can change their reality or illusion.

I find our entire "world as we know it to be" is an illusion which we create based on energy which we give it, aka : it is our "reality". Once we come to terms with the fact that "both" of the words mean the same thing, then we have evolved to the next step of consiousness.

The world as we know it has its downside, absolutely agree, however without these "downsides", we would not be able to experience the "upsides" as we wouldnt know the difference thereof.

Its what we "constitute" with the knowledge of such experience, is what counts! Simple example: OIL: Since we in our incarnation have had an abundance of it to (mis)use, (the upside) we mainly, "the majority I mean to say" don`t understand what it really feels like not having it around. When it is completely gone, our generation will learn the lesson: ergo will tell the next generation of its experience, what it was like in the "old days"..lol... They however will have developed a complete new methode and some kids will probably say: "Awe great grandpa, that must have been terribly hard, or wow Papa Gramps, how awfull for all those people who heated there homes using such oil and suddenly had no more". Theres alot of examples one can use: Drinking water, minerals in our soil, war, waste, air pollution etc. Again: without these "downsides", we would not be able to experience the "upsides" as we wouldnt know the difference thereof. Understanding (meaning: have learned the lesson) means reacting upon it, in energy, thought, view of and taking action. Ex: ride with a buddy and seriously tell others why you do it, teach children about what your grandparents taught us (how many people really really take time with their kids, nieces, nephews, the kid next door, reaching out to the problems of kids all around the world... "teaching them what we know about the consequences of .....", ergo: Playstations, X-box and co. have become our generations teachers instead of us)

When we collectively start to realise that we are ONE and understand our purpose, come to understand that this "collectively being one" can change "EVERYTHING" which you see today, if focused on the same "illusion/reality" then a major stage setting has been made according to Plan. WE just won`t do it like "Hilter and co." (as I read in another thread) did, we will do it using another high form of communication: LOVE! As we have learned the LESSON according to Plan. Take a sec and think about it, isnt that what 2012 is all about? Another major stage setting. Continueing that which Mother Teresa taught during her time of incarnation.


Nanner

I agree with Roger,

Those who see a disconnect betwen heaven and the physical world, who see a cosmic indiffernece to our pain and suffering, and may believe that pain and suffering are meted out to us, are missing two points: the idea of free will, and the give and take of our conscious thought.

Free will is an absolute on the physical plane, and as such we are left to see the consequences of thought and action.  This is not abandonment, but rather the golden rule in action (do not do unto others.......).  Were a divine external will/force to intervene in the outcome of free will on earth, it would negate to some extent having free will in the first place.

The other issue, one that lurks under the surface of our lives is that our thought translates into our reality, right here, and right now in the real world.  As such, there is the famous law of attraction - we bring to our life situations not that which we desire on a whim, but that which is held to the subconscious as our deepest beliefs.   Be it success, failure, violence - it is a cause and effect reaction.  It takes some reading and much reflection on our own lives to really appreciate this.  When we realize its true, aside from our jaws dropping to the floor, we suddenly understand why love, and acting kindly is important (not just because your mom said it was).   

So many here and in life, rail against an unfair God or heaven, cursing them with their fate, when in reality, their beliefs, and thoughts have usually gotten them (whether they know it or not) into whatever unfortunate situation they find themselves in.  This is not true for earthquakes, nuclear bombs and large dispersals of energy - clearly there is some randomness in existing incarnate - and some things that are unfair and not planned.

It is only with a deep understanding of free will and our thoughts creating changes in our own lives that we can appreciate our existence, and our relationship to God and heaven.

Matthew