recoverer wrote on Apr 20^th, 2007 at 8:01pm:


Ooooh, did someone call Hilarion? *looks around this thread*

Well, since Hilarion's name was brought up, and since one subtopic raised in this thread has to do with "dark beings", I will reiterate that on this topic, I share Dave (Dr Dave Armentrout)'s understanding on the true nature of these beings. While they are not necessarily merely 'misguided humans' as some might think (indeed, many of such (mis)labelled (and misunderstood) beings were never ever incarnated as a human previously; though some were, previously human), but they in truth not 'embodiments of evil' either (for good/evil and right/wrong are relative/illusionary); only (that they have been themselves) misled to imagine themselves as such.

Those interested in such a viewpoint (ie. Dave's, my own's, and oh yes Hilarion's) on this topic, might like to visit my webpage here for further reading.
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/forum/messages/59.html

Kyo:

What does Hillarion say about the crucifixion?

LaffingRain wrote on Apr 26^th, 2007 at 4:46am:

Alright, I 4th that because I don't want to go crazy from reading this book.. Because when I was younger and brought up in Catholicism, I feared demons so much.. I thought I was possesed and that demons were always around me.. I heard voices and didn't know if it was just my mind playing tricks on me or really demons..  They finally, stopped when I say a therapist.. He told me it was just my mind playing tricks on me and that demons don't exist.. He had a wife who was a ghost hunter and that did exorcisms.. So, from his perspective he didn't believe in demons and believes a loving God would never create demons to tempt or harm humans.. That's when he told me to read up on Victor Zammit's book and his site... I asked Victor via email and he replied something like this now these guys with devils and demons - do NOT have objective authority at all. They cite the bible as their authority. But
the Bible has only subjective (personal beliefs) authority..

It is universally accepted that whenever there is an inconsistency between
the subjective and objective authority, inevitably, objective authority
prevails.

These guys are into beliefs. But all beliefs are subject to complete
invalidation. It can never be any other way.

Also, about the vanishing demons from the fears of a person's projections I agree with.. But I never said if an misguided discarnate evil human being posseses someone or they have a first hand encounter in the astral world, or at death's door PUL will win them over.. The help of God can only help that person out who encounters an evil discarnate human being.. Then the only other thing that could be considered a demon is an non-human entity from a different planet.. You will know what I mean if you read Michael Newton's book Journey of Souls, and Destiny of Souls... Dr. Newton asks so you don't see malevolent spirit directed here by some demonic force?? The person he has hypnotized replies nooo-sometimes we might run into a dark,heavy entity who is disoriented by the Earth sphere. This place is dense but they come from places even more dense.. Anyway they want to cling to us because they don't know what they are doing. We call them the "heavies: because of their lack of mobility..

Thanks DocM for the good advice.. I want to get more spiritual by following the love of God.. Not determining if demons really do exist...  Yes, I believe there is about a 25% chance that they may exist, but I'm more positve that they don't exist.. Plus, I have read many convincing books on demons already.. Those books didn't convince me so I doubt any other book will..

Shirley:

ACIM and Conversations with whoever states the crucifixion did happen.
Seth, Elias and Matthew state it didn't happen, with the Seth "story" and Matthew "story" contradicting each other. Yet some people will vouch for each source.

If a person takes the time to consider what Seth states with his denial, they'll see that it is illogical. I've already provided reasons on other threads, but I'll restate them again in an abreviated manner. As I've stated before the Gospels can't be refuted as a part of the argument, because Seth used the gospels for the basis of his argument. Seth states that Judas planned an execution behind Jesus's back. Only problem is that during the last supper Jesus told Judas that he would betray him. Why would Jesus tell Judas this if he was planning a hoax? Seth also states that Peter denied Jesus because he didn't recognize the man being crucified as Jesus. The problem is that during the last supper Jesus told Peter that he would deny him. Why would Jesus tell Peter this if it isn't Jesus who gets denied? Seth also stated that Jesus was a great psychic and had wounds appear on his hands when he reappeared to his disciples so they would recognize him. Wouldn't his disciples know if he had left their presence? Seth claimed that a mentally disturbed man was drugged so he could be fooled into believing that he was Jesus so he could take his place. Would it be that easy to convince a person that he is Jesus? Wouldn't the arresting parties have at least one person who knows what Jesus looked like?

As far as it mattering, if Jesus Christ is in fact a being of love and light, why would another supposed being of light try to discredit his reputation in various ways, as Seth does? What is the motive?

It is completely illogical to suggest that one doesn't need to be concerned about how a channeled source puts down Jesus Christ of Nazareth because chances are that he never existed, because why in tarnation do they even bother to put him down if he didn't exist? They would just say that he didn't exist.

It really doesn't make sense to deny the falseness of various channeled sources, by ignoring the illogical and false things they say.

Shirley wrote on Apr 26^th, 2007 at 5:20pm:

[Shirley:] "I've asked before, and not gotten an answer, but where, outside of the bible, is the proof that this person even existed?"
________________________________________________

The best proof can be found in Paul's epistles.   Paul's blinding light encounter with Jesus on the Damascus road transforms him from a hitman for the Phariseeds orgainzing the imprisonment, beating, and murder of Christians into Jesus' most effective defender.   Before Paul begins his apostolic mission, he makes two trips to Jerusalem to be checked out and instructed by eyewitnesses of Jesus such as Jesus' brother James, Peter, and some of Jesus' other disciples (Galatians 1:19-19; 2:1-10).  They share with Paul their recollections of Jesus' life and teaching (e. g. 1 Corinthians 11:23-25; 15:8-8). 

The New Testament Gospels can be linked with eyewtiness testimony to Jesus' life.  For example, Papias who lived in the first century meets both disciples and those trained by them.  He learns that Mark was Peter's interpreter in Rome and collected Peter's memoirs after his exccution by Nero and shaped them into the Gospel of Mark. 

Jesus' existence is also well established by various non-Christian sources.  The most important non-Christian source is the Pharisee Josephus.  Josephus grew up in Jerusalem just 7 years after Jesus' crocifixion.   He knows about Jesus' reputation as a miracle worker and teacher and also confirms His crucifizxion by order of Pontius Pilate (Antiquities 18.3.3).  A few words of this text have been added by a later Christian hand, but the core of text is authentic and has been preserved in a more original wording by the ancient Arabic translation of Josephus.   Josephus is also familiar with Jesus brother James and describies his murder by order of the high priest Annas II.   Josephus describes James as "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ (Antiquities 20.9.1)." 

A Roman inscription by Emperor Claudius has been discovered near Nazareth, Jesos' home town.  The inscription warns that locals that the penalty for further grave robbing is capital punishment.  The inscription responds to the embarrassing fact that the Romans don't know what happened to Jesus' body in the tomb.  Like many Jews of that period, the Romans assume that Jesus' disciples stole His body.  This concern demonstrates that they are well aware of Jesus' existence as a perceived threat to Roman order in Judea. 

I could offer much more proof, but this should suffice. 

Don

Kyo:

I checked the below the other day when you posted it, and it doesn't say anything at all about the crucifixion. Is "mum" the word?


Kyo_Kusanagi wrote on Apr 26^th, 2007 at 11:10pm:

Here is some experience Mr. Nobody?

I used to believe as some of the people on this forum believe; when it came to Christ I thought in terms of fundamentalism.

I started to receive messages from the spirit World about two years ago, and about a year ago I started to receive messages such as "accept Christ." This troubled me because like some other posters on this forum when the subject of Christ would come up I would become uncomfortable and start to look for spit balls to throw.

Fortunately, I didn't keep my mind and heart completely closed to the matter of Christ. One day while going for a walk I spoke to God (I didn't hear him reply), and I said "If Christ is a significant part of your divine plan then I'm all for him, because your divine plan is important to me. But I can't assume that Christ is a part of your divine plan simply because a book states that he is, because I would be asserting this to myself, and this would be dishonest."

One night I woke up and I was shown a crucifix. I asked why. I was shown an image and received some thoughts which stated: "They killed him (Christ), they put him on display, they spotted his reputation." Next I experienced myself pressing the highest C note on my piano. I understood this to mean that Christ is the highest consciousness there is.

After wards I received a number of other messages which stated that Christ is a significant part of God's divine plan. My post would be too long if I shared all of them. But here is one significant experience. One night I was reading an Elaine Pagels book. She wrote that the Gospel of Thomas speaks of Christ as if he was just another enlightened being like other enlightened beings; the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke speak of him as if he is a messenger of God; and the gospel of John speaks of him as he is the only begotten son, the first word, the light, he created the World for God, and then incarnated into the World so he could show the way.

Before I went to sleep this night I prayed and asked for a dream which told me which version is true. In the middle of the night I woke up from a dream. I turned on my night lamp and grabbed my dream journal and a pen so I could take some notes. But then I saw a light flash.  I see spirits appear as starlike flashes of light quite often. I see them this way because this is how you see them when your energy is at your crown chakra,  and my energy is at my crown chakra most of the time. This flash of light was much bigger and much more powerful than any flash of light I've experienced before. It felt more real than the physical World. It felt divine. Even though I didn't see or hear him, I knew it was the presence of Christ. I decided to forget about my dream notes, put my dream journal and pen away, turned off my night lamp, and layed on my side. I was overcome with more energy than I had ever felt before, and I have awakened kundalini, which can be powerful at times. This energy worked on me for about 15 minutes in a manner that is beyond how kundalini works on you. My heart chakra expanded so it felt as if it encompased my entire upper body. The energy of Christ also worked on my three upper chakras. Ever since the energy flow from my heart chakra to  my crown chakra has been more alive and clean. I felt divine love, humility and grattitude towards Christ to an extent that was beyond what a belief system could create. Regarding the question I asked before I went to sleep, the feeling I got was that Christ can be in as many places as he wants to be. He is universal.

After the above experiences took place I started to reflect on my life and found that the series of experiences which began with the "Accept Christ" messages, weren't the first occasions on which I received Christ related messages. For example, about 29 years ago I had a night in heaven experience. I was an atheist at the time because I believed that science had all the answers. Nevertheless, during this experience I knew that God and the afterlife did in fact exist. Not only did I know that they existed, I completely understood how it was possible for them to exist without even having to think about it. It was a wonderful experience and the level of happiness I experienced was beyond the level of happiness that can be experienced in this World. It was such a relief.

To show you how stubborn I was at the time, when the experience ended I dismissed it as a dream. Boy was I disapointed. Years later, after not thinking about the experience at all, the memory of the experience came back to me. There are people who have had near death experiences who have had the same delayed memory syndrome.  The memory of this experience is more alive today than it was 27 years ago. One thing I recall is that during the experience I clearly understood that Christ is a major part of the grand scheme of things. I didn't see him during this experience, but the knowledge of his importance permeated the realm I was in.

Some people might say that I experienced according to my beliefs. This isn't so because 1) I was an atheist at the time and completely didn't believe in the existence of God, Christ and the afterlife; 2) the manner in which I understood things was far deeper than what a belief system could create; and 3) at the end of the experience I saw a bright star flash and I knew this was a symbol for Christ.  Regarding the possibility that my mind created the above, in addition to what I just shared, there is no way that my mind could've created what I experienced, because what I experienced was far beyond anything I had experienced before.

There are a couple of other experiences I had before I received the accept Christ messages. Early on during my kundalini unfoldment process I was shown the image of a lifesize heavy metal rocker dude. I could see kundalini flowing within him.  He said he uses his kundalini for evil. Next I saw a lifesize demonic image of myself. Next I saw the face of Jesus Christ. I received the message if you're going to go through kundalini unfoldment process, make certain that you do so with Christ conciousness in mind.

On another occasion I was doing a retrievel while meditating. Suddenly the man I was trying to help stopped listening to me because across a bay an image of Christ appeared. Gold light spread out from Christ and filled the landscape I was experiencing. The man I tried to help floated accross the bay to where Christ was in a timeless manner. I say a timeless manner, because he traversed the distance accross the bay quickly, without having to float quickly. I had no expectation to see Christ during this experience, yet I did.

You stated that you believe experience is important, and some experiences have been shared. If one wants to find out about Christ one shouldn't make the mistake of trying to do so according to the fundamentalist viewpoints that annoy one. One should try to see if there is another way of viewing Christ. A way that is joyful, rather than repressive.

I'm not the only person who has had experiences with Christ.  For example, people who have had near death experiences. I know some people like to dismiss such experiences as nothing more than the play of a person's preconceived ideas, but if you read enough of them closely, you'll find that some people experience too much depth during their experience for it to be based on what they believed before. Especially since some of these people had experiences that were non-fundamentalist in nature, even though they had fundamentalist ideas before they had their experience. I also know of a few other people who have experienced the presence of Christ without having a near death experience.  


[quote author=Mr. Nobody link=1177109721/45#55 date=1177651621Sorry Don; none of what you offer is "proof". They're just words.


How can words really "prove"  anything? They're just concepts after all.

My own view is that it is only one's own direct experience that uncovers anything of real value; and most of that which is uncovered by direct experience only reveals further questions to explore. Halleluja!!! God says..."It'd be pretty boring otherwise"