Thank you for the re-welcome.   I'm afriad i have written a small book in response to your reply.   When tying so many different things in together, its hard to keep things real brief using this odd communication style called "language".  I try to be as precise and yet as holistic at the same time, and unfortunatley sometimes this requires repetition and length.

Lights of Love wrote on Mar 28^th, 2007 at 4:04pm:


   I don’t know if that’s what Bohm or Pilbram is saying or not, since I’m not all that familiar with them, but I do largely agree with your assessment of his and the other guys work.    Yet there are some differences in the “fine print” I suppose you could say.   To me, yes the physical is a manifestation of collective Soul consciousness (not a “creation” though), but the nonphysical pattern from whence this originates, from our Soul patterns is directly from the Creator.   What we did, was took the Creator’s original creation and patterns, and slowed down their vibratory energies to the point where matter (the opposite pole of Spirit) seemed to have been created, ore more aptly was temporarily manifested.  

  Because of the nature of physical energies, they have their own properties as different from the nonphysical from which they originally originated from or were patterned after, but at the same time these energies are also interconnected with nonphysical energies until we as the collective decided to re-raise the vibratory speed of matter to its original state as originally designed and initiated by the Creator.    We are not “true Creators” in this Universe, right now we are only “playing at” being creators, we are more so manifester’s right now.    When we re-attain full Source Consciousness, we will phase into raw energy states (outside of the overall vibratory range of this particular Universe) and become True Co-Creators with Source, which was Source‘s original intention outside of us having been given Freewill to choose Source or un-Source.

 Karma to me, is like attracts and begets like on whatever energy,  or consciousness state from whence we “put out” a certain energy.   When we manifest emotional and physical karma, we meet it here, when we manifest mental karma, we meet in the nonphysical states of being.  

 Cayce’s guides said that much (but not all) of what we experience in the Earth plane, is karmic in origin.  Karma or like attracts and begets like works (and automatically) because all energies and consciousnesses are interconnected in the One Field.  So, one energy expression/manifesting either positively/constructively affects another and/or the Whole, or negatively/destructively affects another and/or collective others.   This means we have both a responsibility to self and to others for our choices and manifesting.   Nowhere is this more “extreme” and obvious than here in the dimension of the physical (the mixed dimension of polarity).

 When we choose to act, think, or feel in a certain way, and that destructively impacts another and we are conscious of this on some level, then we must balance that and “like” will be attracted to us, it is both energy Law and the desire of the Soul because as a part of Source/Spirit it like Spirit seeks perfect balance within self (Spirit is that perfect balance and what we seek to re-remember and be like again).    So, it isn’t so much by “rote”, but rather judged relatively according to our intentions and state of consciousnesses at the moment of choosing.    So for example, say I’m trying to safely carry a baby, I’m being careful and conscientious of not wanting to end up hurting the baby, but for whatever reason I end up falling and the baby gets hurt, my Soul or conscience will not say, “oh you have karma to balance now” because my intention was constructive and the baby was only harmed because of the unique properties of the physical.  
 Now, if I was being careless and doing things I know I shouldn’t be doing while carrying the baby--things which I know may possibly endanger the baby‘s physical health, in other words not being conscientious for my own particular awareness and development at the time, then I fall and hurt the baby, then yes I will have manifested karma for myself to balance, it won’t matter even if it was technically an “accident” because within my own awareness I knew on some level that my reckless, careless actions could potentially have some kind of destructive effect on this baby.

 Its very “relative” and has a lot to do with intentions and the degree of our awareness, spiritual development within any given moment.   Those who have developed much towards a Source Consciousness, have much responsibility to others and self---those strongly of material consciousness are not that aware and being so, they have less responsibility to self and others which is why when they are destructive to others they tend not to suffer much for it within their own conscience and consciousness (though at some point, some more aware and developed aspect of self must balance it out) .    Within the physical, the actual actions are not always the most important thing when figuring out karmic causes or not.  
Cause and effect is like attracts and begets like is what happens within a given physical lifetime and its similar to what we are talking about in relation to karma.   Karma though, is balancing out energies from other aspects of selves who also are projected into the physical energies (other lives).  

Both are related to like attracts and begets like energy law, but one is of this life and the other of other lives and selves and “carries over” in a sense.   And so far, we’re talking about difficult or destructive karma and cause and effect, but the same is true for positive and constructive.


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To go into all this, we need to have a deeper understanding of reality in various respects, we need to consider many things, the nature of time, the nature of Life Planning, the similarity and differences between the conscious self and the unconscious selves (subconscious and super conscious or in other words Soul and Total/Higher self).  

 First time: as many have stated, time is not really linear as we perceive it here, yet there is a time of sorts.  That there is a “difference” between one moment and another whether in the physical dimension or within nonphysical dimensions is a self evident truth.  
  Time goes in probabilities.   When we choose something within the moment, this sets up certain probabilities of what we will experience from those choices.   Our Total/Higher Self exists outside of linear time perception, and so it sees probabilities of what we would call past, present, or future in relation to our choices in any given moment.   But our Total self, nor even Source itself, cannot completely “predict” exactly what we will choose or not choose.   This is freewill, the ultimate freedom and gift.    However, once we have actually made a choice along a certain line, then both Source and our Total selves will see the various probabilities which can arise from that.  

  Before we come in, various aspects of completely Source conscious Beings, our Total selves, our main guides, and the self which is going to get projected into physical energies all commune together and come up with the best possible Life plan for that individual aspect or what we would call a “personality”.    Obviously the Life Plan is not “written in stone” because of Freewill, but our Total Selves and our various guides try to keep us on track of it because it is a work of such unbelievable awareness and wisdom, the most constructive to self and to the collective.  

   Much of what we experience in major, intense, and particularly affecting ways as personalities were written into the Life Plan as probabilities and paths to begin with.   We’re talking major stuff that really affects our lives and the way we live it.    Much of our Life Plan is reasoned from our collective pool of Karma and karmic memory, but sometimes we take on certain challenges for the nature of those challenges and the potential growth factor involved, and not because it is karma for us to balance.

 But in both cases, these probabilities are pre-known about, because they are essentially pre-chosen on some level.   So, while something may be a “surprise” to our conscious personalities, it will not be so to our Total/Higher selves.    

 But, there is a certain amount of chaos which can happen within creation, creation has its “random” elements even though it basically follows a harmony, order, and plan.   Creation is purposeful but for Freewill to exist in a real way, a certain amount of chaos was allowed to exist along side the order or harmony of the Universe  and Creation in general.  

   So, while much major stuff we experience is either pre-planned or pre-known about from the perspective of the Total self, before it actually happens, its not always the case 100 percent of the time.    In the Cayce readings, in that particular example, his source said emphatically that this was not meant to happen to that infant girl, it was not a probability nor especially it wasn’t a pre-chosen thing to experience.  It essentially ended up changing much of her Life plan after she came in.   Hence, it was not a desirable experience either from a spiritual perspective or on part of that of a suffering C1 personality.   Meanwhile, in many other cases, his source said that the illness was largely karmic in origin, or you could say imbalance on other energy levels other than the physical then which the Soul inherently seeks a perfect balance.  

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 Relativity Kathy.   You are an adult who is more or less in full control of your vehicle, and the connections between your Soul force and physical are quite developed.    But this was a new born infant, what choice did she have in the matter of choosing to strengthen her energies to ward off these germs?    Her physical care was at this point, largely the responsibility of her mother.  
    The above would be true for you or me (especially us since we are more aware of health and health principles than even most adults), but not for her.   A Soul doesn’t have much conscious control over an infants body (especially when just born) because the connections between Soul energy, and physical energy are still being “worked out”.  

 You talk about “blame”, and in a way, it sounds like you are “blaming” the infant girl for not having a stronger immune system to constructively deal with the conscious carelessness of the nurse?   To me, that’s backwards when you consider certain inherent issues as pertains to a specific and relative case.  

 Let’s make it a more obvious and overt example.   Take the same situation and example, but change it a bit.   A nurse who has certain beliefs, ideals, and awarenesses usually handles infants with the physical care necessary for the greatest possible health involved.   She makes sure her hands are washed clean and largely disinfected.   She usually in these cases, thinks more for others than purely just for herself.   But one day, she has been in a fight with her Fiance before coming to work, she’s treated her body like crap and so her mood is also suffering for that, and overall she is just in a more angry and imbalanced way today.   In fact, she is so angry that in one split mili-second decides to choose to do something very rash and wrong, perhaps in a way she takes out her anger on the infant in a overt manner because it just won‘t stop crying, maybe she shakes the baby in a rough manner.    This was not a probability event, it was not pre-set up or pre known about by her Total self, nor the Total  of the baby involved.  

 But, because the infant’s body was handled in such a rough way, and because of the unique properties of the physical and of an infants body and its delicacy, this one swift event and choice of the personality--the nurse has an far reaching influence and affect on this person’s health for the rest of their life because perhaps neither of the parents or anyone else knew about this incident.    We are not talking germs in this case, which is a more subtle thing.   What was the infant to do, perhaps amazingly gain adult strength and power in the moment, and stop the nurse from doing this?    Would that even be possible if this was pre-seen before hand since it was not a probable event, meaning that neither Source nor the two Total selves directly involved saw this coming.   Purely a freewill choice off the paths of both involved, it was an “accident” from a spiritual perspective (not pre-planned), though within the physical of course there is always cause and effect.    Of course when you shake or handle to roughly a little child’s body, there are going to be consequences or an effect to that cause.  But this is purely material causation, and in this particular case, the spiritual wasn’t directly involved.  
  Yet, perhaps in other cases similar to the above scenario, perhaps this was a probability and something prechosen to happen (and an event agreed to on a spiritual level before hand for the greater growth of all involved).  No one but the Total selves directly involved, or Source or those completely attuned to Source know the true causes and reasons for such things and experiences.   Cayce’s guides could read the Life Plan of others, and they were aware of the various probabilities up to a point.

 True accidents are that which are not pre-planned or pre-known about, and which have undesirable long term effects.   This above dissertation reminds me of a few Cayce quotes--for example, “No association or experience is by chance, but is the outgrowth of a law, spiritual, mental, or material (*his guides saw these as different, yet potentially and usually interconnecting)” reading 2753-2

 “It is never by chance but as with all things in this material world, there are causes, there are effects.   To be sure, at times there may be what might be called accidents.  But these, too, in a causation world, have their cause and effect.”  2927-1  Just like I talked about in the above with the different examples of the same scenario with the nurse.

 “Little happens by chance.  True, there may be errors--which is indicated oft in the experience of the mental, the spiritual and material activities of an entity.  These may be called accidents at times.”  2881-1

 “Know there is little or naught which happens by chance save accidents.  These appear even in creation…”  5106-1

 In another reading from memory, there is a statement much like the above, and after saying that there are even accidents in creation, his guides say something like, well it’s a odd statement but true.


Back to the above, let’s talk about “blame”, blame is akin to judgment, in fact one could say that blame is a kind of emotional judgment.   There is pure perception, and then there is ego judgment which stems from fear, or selfishness on some level.   Pure perception is reasoning from the point of the collective, which takes lovingness to “attain” to in awareness to begin with.  Judgment is purely the belief and perception of the little separated self who sees and understands very little because their point of reasoning is so narrow and biased.  

 In the above case of the nurse and the infant girl, nobody has the right to “blame” the nurse or the little girl, yet the nurses own Soul self and conscience will see the necessity for balancing this destructive, careless, and impulsive choice which led to a certain action and cause in the material world.  Another part of this Total self, may choose to have a similar thing happen to it, as was caused by this other personality to that little girl.   Only self truly judges self.    

 Yet, what about Life reviews and the Elders involved in them.? I’ve read different accounts of these “meetings” in the nonphysical between a individual self, and between Beings of Pure Light who are crystal clear channels of Spirit consciousness, and different accounts from different respectable sources are quite similar.   Essentially, while these completed Beings do not “judge” or blame the individual for anything, they do point out their errors in a compassionate and detached way.    They perceive purely and state their perceptions.   You may read accounts of one of these Beings showing a certain part of that person’s physical life to the nonphysical person, and communicating something like, “now why did you do this, or why didn’t you do that, etc.”  Or something like, “you knew on some level that this choice might hurt others didn’t you?  Or how do you think that person felt, after you chose to treat them in that manner?”

  Basically, these Beings act as pure reflectors to the Soul consciousness of the individual involves, and what’s needed in spiritual growth is self honesty, self responsibility, and a greater, more collective/Oneness, compassionate, and holistic awareness of which these Beings help to provide.   They do not sit in emotional judgment on these people, but they do gently point out certain errors, illusions, destructive acts, attitudes, etc. so that the person will recognize this more deeply within themselves, and so they can change that pattern.   They can do this, because they perceive in a crystal clear manner both of the person involved and of the others connected to same, they are completely aware of all the factors in that individual’s Soul growth and their overall pattern in the Earth (the collective akashic “memory“ of all timeline probabilities of that individual Soul).  

  There is such a thing as “error” or un-Sourceness, and when we continue to choose this on various levels, it keeps us from the consciousness of our Creator for always like attracts and begets like.  If we are to be fully aware of and One with the Creator again, we must be completely “like” the Creator again, pure, full of Love, pure Light.    How can these Elders, these completed Ones, actually “blame” anyone or anything?  But yet they can see error from not-error, Sourceness from un-Sourceness can they not?  

 In the case of this nurse, Cayce’s source, who are of these Elders (and/or in other cases, messengers for these), saw “error” on part of the nurse, and they knew that this Soul would have to balance this destructive act which came from un-Source like attitudes and intentions.   They knew this girls ill-health was not a pre-planned experience, but yet had a cause purely on a material level of energy, from a destructive freewill choice (spiritual) on part of the nurse.  They knew that in that moment, the nurse manifested difficult and challenging karma for herself.  

 The only way around karma, is by taking it on and by becoming pure Love and becoming completely detached to self and what happens to self, however “negative” and difficult it might appear to others.   Such is the example of Yeshua’s life.  He transcended Karma by taking it fully on, and yet in becoming pure Love and purely detached to the individual self and only caring about what happened to others, he eventually transcended self suffering (after the Resurrection).   He became his real Self and the R.S. does not know suffering, even if the material conditions are destructive.
  To be continued

Whew Justin... that's a long post 

You hit the nail on the head regarding the blame game controversy.

Thanks for the input.

Love, Kathy 

Don said:

This brings up an important distinction, namely the separation of intent and prayer.  For me, there is no true separation.  When we try to accomplish any goal in the physica plane, we have intent.  Intent may be coupled to certainty and proper action.  There is a cause and effect relationship that then comes into play.  If intent is applied correctly, then the desired result (manifest by a change in probabiities in the physical world) is bound to follow.  Don wonders whether or not healings might be accomplished more often if a different prayer lifestyle were not adopted and consistently applied (such as that of JC).  One could just as easily question why many attempts to imply intent in the physical plane are unsuccessful.

Kathy has spoken of cross purpose intentions.  As an example, one could look at the person who hopes for a promotion at work.  The intent seems to be on getting the promotion, yet this person is constantly saying "yeah, but I know it will never happen for me, I have bad luck."  This cross purpose intention sinks into certainty and the promotion never materializes.  So too, with our daily lives, goals and prayers.  There are also multiple energies at play.  In Don's example of an ill person, there are the true and deep-seated intentions that person carries with them.  There are the intentions of the person such as Don or group praying interacting with that of the ill person.  Don, I don't think that with such complex metaphysical issues, you can reliably blame your use of proper prayer principles as the true cause of failure to heal from an illness.  You would need to account for the various intentions and energies at play in the person's life and their loved ones. 

I, for one would be interested Don in the prayer principles you have found useful.  I have based mine off several authors and sources, but am always open to experimenting with more.  Some people here on this site, like Dave, even speak of coupling intent with objects in the physcial plane to achieve an end.  This comes off almost as a pagan or "magic" spell, where one states intent "by drinking this cup of water, I see the healing as done," then drink the water, and go to sleep with the idea that you have tied the thought to something in the physical plane (the cup of water).  Others have written down their intent or prayer, and then set it on fire, saying the same thing effectively "by the burning of this object, I see it as accomplished."  These simple "spells," though they seem paganistic, couple the physical world to our seeing the goal as accomplished.  As such, they may multiply the force behind the intention, thus helping to promote the outcome.

Matthew

Althouigh it might not be to the point of your initial epistemic question, I find the noti9n of "proper prayer technique" interesting.  Whether I delude myself or prove my reality ir seems, in Shakespeare's words, 'If this be madness, then there's method in't."

I cannot think clearly without obedience to the proper rules of thinking. Else I wind up with those whirling clouds of color, mixed emotions and facts that lead nowhere. Not even to a stable hallucination. And the less attention I pay to the logic of it, the worse it gets.

If I am God, then my logical prayer is how I address myself, much as the tail caught in a door jamb addresses the head of the dog to get it to remove it. If I am not God, then prayer is the communication of my tiny self to obtain a better state whcih must be best described to avoid the problem of the perverse genie who grants three wishes, but in the most literal and malicious manner.

From the less esoteric side, if I do not function according to the highest rules of function that I can adopt, then I limit myself. In yoga, I must abandon the causes of chaos and interference to rise to the next level. This I can test. Thus, Descartes is not only a "thinking thing", but a "logically proper thinking thing". And only to that degree, the degree to which Descartes' nature is not in conflict itself, is Descartes truly and unequivocabkly himself.

This being testably true, perhaps we're asking the wrong quesrtion, which will assuredly give us the wrong answer - or none at all.

Arising out of voidness, evolving so as to create the space it fills, expanding sui generis alone, with potentiality projected into infinity, it may be that our nature reduces not to a thing, but to a dynamic of which the "stuff" is entropy - or as Wheeler called it, "information".

Were this to be so, then we further reduce Descartes to be no more than a thought. And I find myself to be no more than the tale told by ancient rishis sitting by Mother Ganga, "a dream flitting through the mind of Brahm." 

From this interesting perspective, I seek the proper prayer and to properly pray it. "If I be your dream, God, then let me be a good one. Dream me well."


dave

I loved re-reading your story Kathy as I remember it from another forum and it occurs to me this was all set up so you could see you can produce this healing for yourself and find out you are more than you thought you were, a tenet of TMI language, our unlimited selves, our connection to god.

I must have set up the same thing with Ricky when my back discs slipped and he worked on it long distance. I went from crawling on the floor for about a week to walking around normal the next day except for a little soreness around the muscle tissue which healed fast.
your inner guidance did protect you by your change of clothing, showing this was set up.

I put Rick in my lists of credits in the book...I was able to sit down and type then. I couldn't sit up from the pain before.

sometimes if I have something wrong with a part of my body I use visualization, like you did with the vessels that were broken, sending appreciation to the cells, thanking them for serving me. then I found a shouting affirmation worked also when I sliced my finger a voice said DO YOU NEED PAIN! I shouted NO!  I looked at my finger and there was no blood, only a tingling in the reuniting of the skin cells.
I was a little shocked for awhile that such shouting with emotion and affirming could work like that. I thank the voice reminding me that I didn't need pain.

love, alysia

cool!!! thanks Kathy