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The DaVinci Code (Read 30555 times)

Berserk

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #15 - May 19^th, 2006 at 2:03pm

Note that I have toned down my post critiquing Monroe. I was drawing a parallel between my perspective on Monroe's books and Carol Ann's reaction against her Catholic background.

You New Agers so often try to deflect the discussion away from the point at issue and falsely impute claims to your detractors. I have read all 3 of Monroe's books and obviously know that Tart respects Monroe. Why else would he write the Introduction to Monroe's first book, "Journeys Out of the Body?" I am referring to Tart's experiment with him. To quote Tart:

"His [Monroe's] continuing description of what our home looked like and what my wife and I were doing was not good at all: he "perceived" too many people in the room. he "perceived" me doing things I didn't do, and his description of the room itself was quite vague (JOOB, p. 16)."

To me, this result can rightly be characterized as "dismal" and casts a pall over Monroe's unverifiable claims about his astral contacts and alleged discoveries. the implausibility of his alien joke collectors and his cartoony past life recall is devastating because he does not even acknowledge how an average person might react to such claims. To me, these claims fester at the intellectual level of conspiracy theorists who claim that the Apollo moon landing was really faked in a New Mexico hangar. The sad fact that this site's New Agers are unphased by such nonsense warrants my blunt repudiation of Monroe's claims, regardless of the everpresent threat of censure. These claims are lamentable because some of Monroe's other claims find parallels in NDEs and alleged astral insights of other adepts. But Monroe's lack of critical discrimination is just another nail in the coffin of respectability for astral exploration in the minds of rational outsiders and I want this area of research to become more palatable to those outside the New Age ghetto, so that the cause of genuine knowledge of the afterlife can be advanced.

Don

« Last Edit: May 19^th, 2006 at 4:18pm by Berserk »

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Touching Souls Super Member Offline LOVE IS ALL, SHINE YOUR LIGHT THAT OTHERS MAY SEE Posts: 1966 Metaline Falls, WA Gender:	Re: The DaVinci Code Reply #16 - May 19^th, 2006 at 2:35pm Ditto.
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DocM

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #17 - May 19^th, 2006 at 3:02pm

Kathy,

I actually think Don is trying to contain himself, in his own way in these posts. There is less direct assault on a particular person, and I think I only counted the term "ghetto," twice. I don't think calling the accuracy "dismal," or saying the other things are all that bad.

I do like when Don responds directly to the posts. I would love his take on the question I posited, which is assuming the fictional claims of the Davinci code were true, would that make Jesus in any way less divine? Or is it truly an assault on christianity and the teachings of Jesus. I did say, my own take is that much of this holy grail/Dan Brown stuff is interesting fiction, and I stand by that.

I think, Don, that if you investigate astral travel in a purely scientific way, you may be disappointed. I think as I said in my previous post that an astral traveller may focus their attention on things both in the physical and in the astral at the same time. How to account for that? Let us say that an earthbound spirit was in Tart's house, as an example. Monroe saw this person, Tart obviously did not. Was it all imagined? Well that depends on how Monroe was "travelling." Swedenborg spoke with astral humans whom he called Angels, all the time. If entities may be around us in the astral realm, perhaps Monroe perceived a few extra people in the room because there WERE a few extra people - just not incarnate. Or, he may have been there seeing a different timeline; this has been documented in remote viewing (I have the references if you are interested in them).

I am not trying to defend Monroe at all costs, merely to pont out that the "dismal failure," you cite may or may not be a failure. Let me rephrase that - it is a failure in a purely scientific logical analysis of C1 recognition. His perceptions may still have been on the mark, as I noted above.

I also should mention those Gateway CDs, Don. I have a few of them, and many of the exercises are based on Monroe's own experiences and ideas. You can't get away from it. The hemi-sync tones do have a scientific basis in fact; theta brain wave patterns are found in advanced practitioners of yoga, meditation and during mystical experiences. So if you listen to hemi sync tones geared around the theta waves, it may be helpful. But in the series, Monroe builds a whole energy system based on his ideas. I'm not discouraging you from experimenting with the CDs, but keep in mind, the exercises developed to "free your mind," are from the same man you expose to ridicule.

Matthew

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Berserk

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #18 - May 19^th, 2006 at 5:22pm

Matt,

Nothing theologically decisive is at stake in the bogus claim that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and had children. In Jesus' day, it was highly unusual for a Jewish male to remain single into his 30s. But Jesus' unsympathetic Jewish contemporaries would of course object to any claims of His virginal conception. Indeed, Jesus was widely deemed a bastard in His day. Illegitiimate Jewish sons were not permitted to marry a Jewish woman. This stigma may help explain why He remained single. Also, His constant travel and His sense of impending martyrdom may have contributed to His decision to remain a bachelor. If Jesus were married, His marital status would not invalidate his Messianic status. But surely we would expect first-century stories and legends about His wife and children.

It is possible that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' aunt! The Greek of John 19:25 leaves it unclear whether there were 2 or 4 women at the cross. Suppose that John intends to report only two women Then the following translation (supported by the early church Father John Chrysostom) is possible:

"Standing near the cross were Jesus' mother and his mother's sister, [namely] Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene."

This translation has two facts in its favor.
(1) Whereas Jesus' mother and His mother's sister are unnamed. the last two women are named. So the naming may simply clarify the identity of the preceding references in the manner indicated by the implicit sense 'namely."

(2) This understanding implies that Joseph is dead and that Jesus' mother married Clopas. Clopas is identified as Joseph's brother in early Christian tradition. Joseph's brother. Thus, "Mary the wife of Clopas" might refer to Jesus' mother. John Chrysostom knows an early traditon that Mary lived as Clopas's wife after Joseph's death.

Joseph is probably already dead before Jesus' adult ministry. Joseph figures in no story of the adult Jesus' life and Jesus is identifed as "the son of Mary" by skeptics in his home town (Mark 6:3). In a patriarchal culture, this attribution is odd and may imply that Joseph is known to be dead.

By the law of levirate marriage (Deuteronomy 25:5-10), Joseph's brother Clopas would be obligated to marry Mary if Joseph died without natural children. Are Jesus' brothers in fact the sons of Clopas by a prior marriage? Two facts are consistent with this:

(1) One of Jesus' brothers is named Joseph (Matthew 13:55). Jiewhs grandsons were commonly given their grandfather's name. But it is almost unheard of in late antiquity for a father to give his son his own name. Kings and high priests are an exception to this pattern of avoiding identical names for both father and son, but Joseph is neither a king nor a high priest.
(
2) Early Christian tradition identifies Jesus' brothers as his cousins (so Hegesippus). If Jesus' brothers were in fact the sons of Clopas, then Jesus' cousins would also legally become his brothers by Mary's levirate marriage.

If this view of family relationships is correct, then it would be good evidence that Jesus is not the biological son of Joseph. If He were, it would be incestuous by Jewish law for Mary to marry Clopas. But a marriage to the husband's brother is legally required if the husband dies without biological children. The first offspring of this new marriage would then be deemed the son of the deceased husband. If Clopas thought Jesus was the product of Mary's promiscuity, he is not likely to have married her. For this reason, if Mary maried her brother-in-law Clopas, this might actually be cited as support for Jesus' virgin birth!

Admittedly, all this is highly speculative. One difficulty with this theory is its implicatin that Mary and Mary Magdalene are sisters. It is unlikely that two sisters would bear the same name. But this difficulty is not insuperable. There is evidence of siblings having the same name in compound names. Mary Magdalene might have been known as "Magdalene" (so Luke 8:2--"Mary the one called Magdalene"). Interestingly, Luke 8:1-3 identifies Magdalene as one of a group of women who supported Jesus' financially during His ministry.

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identcat

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #19 - May 19^th, 2006 at 5:48pm

T. Lobsand Rampa (and I think Shirley MacLaine) said in one of his books that Jesus went to Tibet to study the mystics and spiritualism. Supposedly Jesus was arrogant and in order for him to learn properly, he was sent to Lhasa for his childhood studies. He then went to the temple at age 12 and tried to share his knowledge with the elders, but was thrown out as a heritic. From there he traveled and studied other diciplines. After the crucifixion, in which he went into a meditative trance to similuate death, he fled to India with his family, was married and had a full life in the protection on India. There are suposed records of this hidden in India.
Now don't jump on me because I what I read!!!
IF a God or demi God is to judge me--- I certainly hope that he was both male and female and had been married, went through all the anxieties of a human being and felt pain and stress as we know it. After all--God has to learn too.

The three things you can never take back:
The spoken word.
The unkind thought.
The misused hour.

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identcat

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #20 - May 19^th, 2006 at 6:22pm

I also remembered something else I read. It was Edgar Cayce in The Sleeping Profit that stated he saw Jesus during one of his sessions. He described Jesus as somewhat wealthy, and well versed in Buddhism and saw him sporting a "very long fingernale on his baby finger" which was the Tibetian (Chinese) display of nobelity and wealth.

The three things you can never take back:
The spoken word.
The unkind thought.
The misused hour.

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Berserk

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #21 - May 19^th, 2006 at 6:29pm

Carol Ann,

The view that Jesus went to India cannot be traced earlier than the 3rd century Acts of Thomas, a Gnostic document which claims ony that the apostle Thomas evangelized india and that the Risen Jesus, not the earthly Jesus, appeared to Thomas en route. No modern scholars take this claim seriously even for Thomas. The Acts of Thomas is far too late to preserve genuine reminiscences for the early apostolic period. Indeed, no Jew from this period is known to have made so long a journey. For one thing, the Indian language barrier would have been insuperable. Also, remember that from the late 2nd century on, innumerable forgeries were created about Jesus and the apostles.

Jesus said of His own intinerary, "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 10:6)." Occasionally, Jesus and His disciples traveled a few miles beyond the Jordan River and north into Lebanon (e.g. Tyre and Sidon), where many would be familiar with the languages known to Him and His disciples--Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Only after His resurrection did Jesus authorize the Gentile mission (Matthew 28:16-20).

Don

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DocM Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 2168	Re: The DaVinci Code Reply #22 - May 19^th, 2006 at 8:28pm I think that Don is a true seeker. His self reported use of the hemi sync CDs (which were formulated by the very man he half-ridicules), his analysis of NDEs and mediums, speak of a soul who is not bent on merely preaching to others, but of exploring and learning himself. M
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betson

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #23 - May 20^th, 2006 at 9:54am

Greetings Berserk and indentcat,
National Geographic ran an article about 3--4 years ago of a recently discovered, small tribe in India that marked their foreheads and buildings with a cross.
Tribe members showed NG photographers (and NG reders) ancient buildings that were little more than caves fronted by masonry unlike any others known in India. Central panels above the small doors had an incised cross; beside these cross-marked keystones, pairs of graceful curves like inverted f-holes on a violin, were sculpted, very unusual for the area. The tribe also had its own religion based upon teachings of their messiah who once lived among them.

NG made no conclusions about the source of such anomalies. NG, I know, Don, don't tell me, is not an authorized source of Christian history. There's so much more to discover, so much more to learn and
love, bets

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare

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DocM

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #24 - May 20^th, 2006 at 10:24am

Interesting Bets,

I don't think anyone knows what to make of that, but then you have the book of Mormon in the United States, which makes some pretty outrageous conclusions of Jesus visiting North America....none of which really makes sense. Yet there are quite a lot of Mormons out there.

Belief is a strange thing. Truth is another animal. Some will say, on this board that there is no such thing as truth. I understand their arguments regarding it, but thus far, I don't yet accept that into my belief system. In an objective way, either Jesus died on the cross as most believe or he didn't. Most sources document that he did. Whether or not the tribe in India or the Mormons have any claim to him, is far fetched at best.

M

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betson

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #25 - May 20^th, 2006 at 10:46am

Hi DocM,
I always respect and learn alot from your posts.
I can't group the Mormons with this NG article because 'a picture is worth 1000 words' and NG as always had lots of pictures.

Logically speaking, how do you reject the India connection? Was it a set-up/ruse? Are they wrong in dating their cavefront architecture to circa 300 AD ? Are the cross markings a coincidence?
( I don't want to believe the India connection--- I enjoy Poussin's 'pictures' of the other versions more. Grin

)
(The above reply was worded to GDG. (Get Don's Goat)
bets

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare

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SunriseChaos

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #26 - May 20^th, 2006 at 6:39pm

Hello all,
I think the theory of Mary Magdalene being Jesus aunt is quite interesting.
But if we were to consider that, would we still be right to believe what the bible tells us about her?
Was or wasn't she a prostitute? Did she leave her bad ways to follow Jesus after he saved her from being stoned to death?
And last but not least, when they tell Jesus about her as she was about to be stoned, it would appear that she was a total stranger to him. Did they purpousefully make it look like that to not make Jesus the nephew of a prostitute?

Peace.

S.C.

I LOST MY HEART. I BURIED IT TOO DEEP UNDER THE IRON SEA. - KEANE&&------------------------------------------------------------&&LIFE IS WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU WHILE YOU ARE BUSY MAKING OTHER PLANS - JOHN LENNON

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Berserk

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #27 - May 21^st, 2006 at 12:28am

SunriseChaos,

"Was or wasn't she a prostitute? Did she leave her bad ways to follow Jesus after he saved her from being stoned to death?"
_____________________

Throughout church history, Mary Madalene has been mischaracterized as a prostitute. 3 factors contributed to this libel.

(1) By the 2nd century, Mary Magdalene is elevated to the status of "the apostle of the apostles." The chauviinstic times cut such eminent women down to size by embroiling them in a bogus sex scandal. So Mary Magdalene is mislabelled a hooker and a famous female Jewish teacher, Beruria (early 2nd century), is slandered by the invention of a sexual tryst with her husband's student. In fact, Mary Magdalene's devotion to Jesus is inspired by her need for an exorcism, which Jesus provided (Luke 8:2).

(2) The early church tends to identify several apostolic figures with the same name as the same person. Thus, in the 2nd century, Philip the Evangelist is wrongly identified as the apostle Philip, one of the 12. John the Elder and the prophet John (author of the Book of Revelation) are misidentified as the Apostle John, one of the 12. Half of all Jewish women in this era are named either Mary or Salome! So there are several Marys in our Gospels that are easily confused.

(3) 2 different women who anoint Jesus with costly perfume for 2 different reasons become wrongly identified as one woman, Mary Magdalene.
(a) An unnamed prostitute crashed a disgusted Pharisee's dinner party in honor of Jesus. She had experienced divine forgiveness through Jesus' ministry and was delirous with gratitude. She expressed her gratitude by washing Jesus' feet with her tears and expensive perfume and then wiping them with her hair (Luke 7:37-38).

(b) After Jesus' raised Lazarus from the dead, his sister Mary (also Martha's sister) expressed her gratitude by washing his feet with expensive nard and wiping his feet with her hair (John 12:3). Jesus proclaims this a prophetic symbolic action that anticipates the preparation for His burial after His crucifixion. This Mary is not Mary Magdalene and is always distinguished from the latter by her relationship with her sister Martha.

"And last but not least, when they tell Jesus about her as she was about to be stoned, it would appear that she was a total stranger to him. Did they purpousefully make it look like that to not make Jesus the nephew of a prostitute?"
_____________________________________

Jesus movies like Mel Gibson's celebrated "The Passion of the Christ" portray Mary Magdalene as the adulteress (not a prostitute!) about to be stoned in John 7:53-8:11. You are right to discern that this adulteress "was a total stranger to him." Like the prostitute who anoints Jesus with perfurme this adulteress is never identified and is certainly not Mary Magdalene who is one of a group of Jesus' loual female disciples who supports Jesus' financially (Luke 8:1-3). What I am sharing with you is widely accepted as the scholarly consensus about Mary Magdalene. My theory that she might have been Jesus' aunt is my own idea.

Don

« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2006 at 12:31am by Berserk »

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identcat

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #28 - May 21^st, 2006 at 4:24pm

Don--- I am currently reading "secrets of the Code" by Dan Burstein. I am only on page 41 and he has given five interpertitations of Mary Magdalene. No one can agree. And, if the Bible WAS such an accurate account of the life of Jesus, why then are there so many different writings/interpertations of the holy book?
Nothing is set in stone: Stone also disintegrates and becomes sand. Sand turns to dust. Dust scatters with the winds. Wind is felt and heard, but not seen. (get my drift---LOL)
It is what WE make it.
Love and Light--- cat

The three things you can never take back:
The spoken word.
The unkind thought.
The misused hour.

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Berserk

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Re: The DaVinci Code
Reply #29 - May 22^nd, 2006 at 12:51am

Identcat,

You're right. There are many views of the shape of our planet. Some think it's flat. Others think the earth is held up by giaint elephants. So it is an open question whether it is round like we're taught, right?

I guess you imagine that the date, origin, and credibility of ancient traditions doesn't matter. You seem to have no conception or knowledge of which Christian documents are early enough to have historical merit and which stem from the age of countless forgeries. I have a doctorate in this area and I know what I'm talking about. There is no scholarly debate about these issues in academic circles. When I refer to the New Age ghetto, I'm referring to the arrogance of presuming that the unanimous consensus of experts in the field of early Christian literature should be discarded in favor of New Agers untrained in this area. What a joke! There are many mysteries about earliest Christianity. The marital status of Jesus is not one of them. Nor is the silly and unsubstantiated claim that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. I challenge you to offer a single shred of evidence for either of these bogus claims from the first 150 years of Christianity.

Don

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