I doubt that a God who was powerful and wise enough to create everything, and is the source of all love, would really set things up that way. If a scripture states that this is so, then you might want to ask if the scripture actually represents the word of God.

Imagine the following: Your body dies, you cross over, go to heaven, and find out that heaven is way more wonderful than anything you could've imagined before you crossed over. The place is completely embraced with love, peace, joy, happiness, beauty, and God's presence.

Would it make sense for somebody to come up to you at such a time and give you some test to see if your heart is into what heaven is all about, or would it be quite obvious that your heart is into it, and your acceptance of heaven is way, way, way beyond an obedience/disobedience framework of mind?

Also, wouldn't fitting in with a heavenly existence be more of a matter of where your heart is and what your state of mind is, rather than whether or not you took part in some ritual, or believed in one specific doctrine, which isn't really all that specific, considering how people have interpretted it in so many ways.

I'm not sure exactly that those who strongly "believe" that they will end up in heaven will... I say this when considering some of those radical martyrs who do such heinous ungodly things, and then expect to end up in some "heavenly" realm for their "heavenly" deeds. That would be "totally" irrational and illogical from ANY standpoint. And I'm also sure that if somebody led the most spiritual awe inspiring life, yet believed that they would end up in Hell... that they would neccessarily end up in Hell. Those kinds of ideas don't seem right to me, but maybe that's just me.

And one has to remember... "Heaven" and "Hell" are in the eyes of the beholder. What's heaven for you may not be heaven for me... What's hell for you may not be hell for me. (There are limits to this concept of course, but you get the general idea.)

As Bruce had replied to one of my threads... Beliefs are not the end all be all to where you end up in the afterlife... You've got to remember that there are guides/angels/helpers who are over there just "waiting/wanting" to help us. It's what they choose to do out of PUL.

We're never alone... We can never be alone.
Since Love is the formula which has bound all of creation since the beginning of "time" ad infinitum, nothing can forever get lost in the vastness of this cosmos/reality that we find ourselves in... It's not to say that you won't get lost at times, it's to say that you won't get lost forever.

(Confusion is the way to enlightenment... Love is the way to delightenment.)

Peace,
PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Thank you Marilyn!

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

To me to be baptized means to allow the spirit of God to thrive in you. Doing so is more of a matter of allowing love and goodness to abide in you, rather than a matter of believing in religion A as opposed to religions B, C, D.....

Because we're all influenced to varying degrees by our conditioned minds while we're down here, it's hard to know whether one religion is more true than another.  If it was easy to know which is more true, most of us would believe the same thing.

I don't believe it is expected that we will figure it all out while we're down here. What's important is to grow in love as best as we can, and when we get back to the spirit World we'll find out what it's really about.

Doesn't that then imply that someone elses afterlife is enforced on us according to our actions? One thing I picked up in Bruces books is that not everybody goes to the same afterlife, like Max who ended up in his own hell, some catholics end up in catholic heaven, some christians end up in christian heaven, and your terrorist will end up in terrorist heaven with his virgins. What happens after they get there though is another matter and thats where your self reflection will start to occur.

What I'm still unsure of senote, is that upon death, we go through our introspective "life-review"... I'm not sure why a soul could (would) choose, after viewing this immersive "life-review", to consequently go to a "Hell" so to speak... It kind of seems "weird" to me in a way. (i.e. To see how all of my actions thoughts have effected others/myself... and then continue to choose those actions/thoughts even after this introspection.) I'm still a little baffled by that one. But, it seems to happen from what I've gathered thus far.

I'm still trying to figure some of this out myself...

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Along similar lines to what Marilyn said, I don't think people die and then, review or no review, *BAM* they're instantly englightened beings. I'd guess most of them would look back and see things more or less as they had seen them at the time. Then after time and development they might look at the same review and then begin to see the mistakes they made and a better way to have lived.

Here's an interesting NDE that I just read that ties in well with some of our discussions:

"On my way to a camping trip in the Smokey Mountains I had a severe front tire blow out. The car was going around a curve at the top of the mountain and the only barrier was a guard rail. This was the only thing between the vehicle and CERTAIN death. My best friend was in the passenger seat as I was driver. She is a devout catholic, I am not. Not even catholic. The blowout was loud and violent as we rounded the curve. I lost control of the vehicle immediately as we hit loose gravel. I knew this was it. The end. Certain death. I looked at my friend as she was busy w/the Hail Mary's and turned back to the road to see how many seconds I had left to live. I judged 2 maybe 3 at the most. As I looked at the edge of the mountain I was slammed out of my body. It was instant and it was real. The next thing I knew I was standing in what seemed to be a circular room with with MASSIVE movie screens at a complete 360. All time seemed to stop however my life review seemed to take mere seconds. Everything I had ever done, good or bad. Every one I had ever know no matter how important or trivial. All my life experiences played out in a matter of fleeting seconds. In my mind I heard or felt a voice. A Godly voice. A Holy voice. I felt the kindness and was explained to me that judgment of my life was up to me. There would be no retribution. I was responsible for my life as I was for my judgment of my life. I'd been up to that a point a pretty good soul. Never hurt anyone or anything, always trying to help, to be the best person I could be. The review was surprising as it was pleasant. I remember smiling during this review for the most part. It past so quickly but I felt all emotions as I had originally felt them only in light speed. It was almost like watching a movie on fast forward,
   As quickly as it had begun I was slammed back into my body. Time returned exactly where I stepped out. 3 seconds...2 seconds and then the most amazing thing happened. The car came to a complete stop. I couldn't understand. We were skidding on gravel. FAST. But it just stopped. I poured out of the car barely breathing on my hands & knees. I looked at the edge. The tires were less than 2 inches from the edge. Something stopped that car but it wasn't me." (www.nderf.org, "Traci P's Fear-Death Experience")

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Baptism is ritual.  It is only as good as the meaning associated with it.  People who associate vain superstitutions to it are missing the point.  This is why babies are baptised. 

Although, for the most part, my sense is that baby christenings have become merely a ceremonial social tradition for the parents and grandparents.  A way for young parents to introduce their new child to the church congregation.

But ritual is important!  Yoga, Falun Gong, Baptism, Wudu ... they can all be called rituals.  These rituals are a reminder to your connection to spirit.

SPI-RITUAL

I say, turn your morning shower into a ritual.  Let the flowing water reinvigorate you.

Good points spooky...

I was wondering as well spooky; with regards to baptism and our previous discussions on the effects that thoughts/music/etc. have on the structure of water molecules. Do you think that it is possible that the idea of "blessing" water actually does have some measurable truth behind it. (i.e. if thoughts etc. actually do affect the structure of water molecules, does that lead one to believe that by "blessing" the water (positive thoughts) that it in fact does change the structure of the water molecule thereby creating some sort of measurable healing etc.?

Just a thought...

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Hi Cosmic Ambitions, I really don't know, instead of an opinion of mine I'll tell you what I've just heard on the tv, that two people can take a bit of the same water with a pipette, then let some drops fall on a paper, let it dry, and when one looks at the remaining patterns it will look different according to which person had dropped it on the paper.
Spooky

Quote:



  For the most part i agree.

  But i would like to relate something about Baptism.

  My Mom was a fairly psychic person, and especially when she lived out in California for some reason or reasons.

  When i was baptized at a young age, she said during the middle of the ceremony, there was intense bright shaft of light that went into my forehead area (this light came out of nowhere she said).

   I don't think this is rare or i'm special, or anything like that, probably happens all the time, its just that my Mom was sensitized enough at the time to actually see it where most don't.

  She also saw a bunch of lights when i was born, and about 10 minutes after i was born one of these lights entered into the infants body.

  This is interesting cause it supports Edgar Cayce's info that the Soul doesn't always complete the personality right at first breath, which is when most astrologers erect a chart for a person.

  His Source said that while the Soul does often complete the personality at or near first breath, there can be hours (or more) difference.

  There is a really interesting book on Auras that i have by a English sensitive named Paul Lambillion who seems very much like the real deal to me, and he talks quite a bit how going to Church can be quite an amazing experience from an auric perspective, and he often sees what he calls Angels working there or noting a definite change in blessed (holy) water, etc.

  And he is not a traditional Christian, or doesn't consider himself religious though he very loves Christ's teachings.

Related to what Justin said, if you do a baptism with the right mind/heart set, It probably could make a difference. Certainly there are different ways of reaching out to God.

Hi thanks all of you for your replys.God bless juditha

Hi,
Elysiumfire wrote:
>>>nothing circumnavigates natural laws, only our understanding of them<<<
the critical point in this is we can never be sure that we have found already all "natural laws", and/or if those which we have found are correct. The weak point of natural science is that it has a history. But of course, it's useful. But it's not very probable in my view that the now established natural laws are the truth. (Of course they cannot be the entire truth as they are not dealing with important aspects our world, I mean nature sciences here)

Spooky

Spooky2 wrote:" the critical point in this is we can never be sure that we have found already all "natural laws", and/or if those which we have found are correct."

That was the essence of what I wrote. Thanks Spooky2 for your elucidation. The laws of nature as uncovered by the sciences will always be open to adaption as our understanding increases.
Shifts in paradigms will occur, even if reluctantly, but my statement envisages this, it anticipates it; and thus, regardless of whatever natural laws are determined, nothing will ever circumnavigate them. Things will always be in accordance with natural law.
What will change, and change constantly, is our perspective.

Regards