I agree Marilyn... If a belief doesn't resonate with my soul, I quickly discharge it.

Growing up, it wasn't as easy for me to "discharge" things because I didn't know any better, I was taught many things about God and the way "he" operates... Every time I had a question, it was either left unanswered, or ridiculed. I quickly grew weary of that, and decided that that type of God, is not one that I could come to know very well. Also, I decided that if I am truly a "child" of God, what parent could possibly get mad at their child for asking honest/sincere questions about them.  ???

Thank God, (literally), for people like you. 

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

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Dear Roxas. would like to help you teach your mom but I'm not a bible scholar in this life. however, how about this quote "The sun shines on the just and the unjust alike?"
many kids, their souls older than their parents with more innate spiritual wisdom, they are born to parents who have need of the spiritual wisdom their child reminds them of. so as you go through your life with your relatives, u may choose to work on your relationships from their own point of reference, which in this case is the bible, as that's all they can accept. yet u will come across many fine texts out there to support your journey and intuition of what path is right for you. religious principle does not have to a separate issue from spiritual knowings. yet for awhile it will appear that way.
everybody here is saying the same thing about salvation, heaven and hell. these items are created right here in the now, in our minds, as our thoughts are creative things.
what a man thinks, he becomes. so hell is first created here and we take hell with us like a suitcase when we travel on out of our physical body.

so heres a quote I just thought of in the bible "the kingdom of heaven is within."

speaking of this subject. It is my firm belief I have lived other lives or they are still being lived in other dimensions right now and I have tapped into a few of them. in one I was a preacher. I call him DP. and now this Dead Preacher has become my sidekick or guide. I love him very much. He tells me in this life he baptized as a missionary natives. something went terribly wrong after he left his body. his guides and disc members told him the natives did not need the baptism rites, for they were never lost in the first place. this info did not sit too well with DP and he became very distraught with religion and vowed to seek the spiritual life as opposed to the obedient religious life based on the bible.
even now I get a thud feeling in my solar plexes area when I see preaching going on anywhere, for it is your heart which will tell you the truth, your intuition, even as it is doing now for you, to question what you are told.
DP had forgetten to love the natives in favor of dunking their heads under water. it was simply awful to discover his error.
that ye love one another, and in all your getting get love, this is the greatest commandant of all. this is all he remembered when he woke up in a new body into a new day.

you are doing well, I know! love, alysia

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http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john12.htm

Gospel of John, chapter 12 verse 47

Arguing with them isn't likely to achieve anything. Even if you were to convince them that God is not an a**hole, they would be trading one set of convincing *truths* for another (or nothing at all). Being convinced of something is not enough because believing and knowing are two very different things. Knowing is synonomous with full realization, which only comes from direct personal experience. We may add beliefs to our experiences, but our deepest knowledge must be based on direct personal experience or we are just merely convinced, regardless of which tools we use to form our beliefs. A lot of evidence and clarification helps, but even that's not quite the same as direct personal experience.

Anyone who is believes that their literalist interpretation if the Bible is correct is one who is convinced. Complicating things is the spiritual experiences that are common to a lot of people who stop being totally self-centered and reach for something better (including your friends). The best you can do by arguing is convince them of something else, which doesn't really change their mindset.  I think it's better to wait until, if ever, they begin to question their beliefs on their own and ask you for advice. Until then, let their guides worry about them. That's what they're there for. It's not the end of the world if they go around with their heads up their butts for a while. We all have our own path.

BTW, Proof-texting, which is using various verses taken out of context to support a position, is fallacious. There are thousands of Churches/denominations who use the Bible to justify their contradicting beliefs, some stringing verses together to *prove* they're right, all of whom are convinced that they know the *truth*. Who is right?

I use this: if a belief generates even a little fear (spiritually), it's wrong, because Love and fear cannot cooexist in the same place at the same time. A god of Love and a god of fear are two different gods.

It's quite possible that what their beliefs are individually prepatory towards something else. Being involved in something spiritual, even being a fundie, is a step in the right direction for some people. Without being able talk to their guides or put them under hypnosis, it's problably not possible to know what the plans are for these people, what they are here to learn and experience, what they're here to work on, and how their present situations contribute to those ends. I'd let them be.

Rob

FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR "SPIRITUAL" NON-CHRISTIANS TO GO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN AFTER DEATH?

Rosas, I've decided to assume a low profile here, but noticed that no one offered you an answer that your Mom might find helpful--i. e. a Bible-based answer.    But first I'd begin by offering your Mom this absurd argument.   "Let's not send food and medicine to starving children in Ethiopia and the Sudan.  If we save their lives, almost all of them will reach age 12, the age of accountability.  But then most of them will go to Hell because they haven't accepted Christ as their Savior.  Better to let them starve in the age of childlike innocence.  That way, they'll get to Heaven.  So letting them starve is actually the loving thing to do."  I hope you find this argument as offensive as I do.

Many would dismiss this question on the grounds of several 'exclusivist" New Testament texts: e.g. "All who sin apart from the Law will also perish from the Law, and all who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law (Romans 2:12)."  But Paul celebrates God as "the Savior of all humanity, ESPECIALLY of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)."  The word "especially" stops us dead in our tracks when we deny that He is ultimately the Savior of unbelievers as well.  How can unbelievers be saved apart from formal profession of faith in Christ?  Paul answers this question in his discussion of the fate of non-Christian Jews and Gentiles in Romans 2:7, 10: "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life...glory, honor and peace to everyone who does good--first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."  

But these people have failed to gain forgiveness by trusting in Christ's atoning death.  Paul would reply that in pre-Christian times God "overlooked" sins committed in ignorance (Acts 17:30)."  Surely God takes the same position with respect to modern people who are ignorant of the sinful nature of their actions.  Again Paul would agree: "Before the Law was given, sin was in the world, but SIN IS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THERE IS NO LAW (Romans 5:13)."  Note the present tense 'is not."  

But even on this basis many pagans cannot qualify because conscience can be equivalent to the revealed written Law of Scripture: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do BY NATURE the things required by the Law, they are a law for themselves...SINCE THEY SHOW THAT THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them (Romans 2:14-15)."  Only God knows how many pagans find their way to Heaven on this basis.  

But doesn't Jesus always insist during His public ministry that all godly non-Christians be properly taught His message and His ministry of redemption?  Actually, no!  In Mark 9:38-41, John informs Jesus that a non-Christian Jew is successfully performing exorcisms. John adds: "We told him to stop because he was not one of us."  Notice how Jesus handles the situation.  He says, "Bring the man here and we'll explain the Gospel to him and offer him some basic instruction in discipleship.  Then we'll send him on his way to continue his ministry."  Oh, many evangelicals wish Jesus had responded that way!  But no, notice how He really does respond: "Do not stop him.  No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."  In other words, if you don't actively oppose Jesus by your values and actions, he considers you to be on His side.  On the basis of Jesus' actions here, would you still insist that this exoricist was unsaved?  Apparently, this man's successful ministry demonstrates to Jesus' satisifaction that his spirituality is the functional equivalent of what God requires.  

And how can Jesus say that "the poor" are "divinely favored" because "theirs is the kingdom of God (Luke 6:20)?"  How can He say elsewhere that "the poor in spirit" will "inherit the kingdom of heaven," that "the pure in heart...will see God," and "that "the peacemakers" will "be called sons of God (Matthew 5:3, 8-9)?"  Why doesn't Jesus insist in this context that all these classes must first be "born again" (John 3:3)?

I think Christians need to preach the Gospel and send out missionaries to convert the masses.  But I also think we'd better let God decide which non-Christians are bound for Hell and which are not.  Perhaps, righteous unbelievers spend time in one of the two Heavens below Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).  Perhaps, those who have received very limited spiritual light are purified or (in Jesus' poetic image) "are beaten with few lashes" in Hell (Luke 12:47-49) before being reclaimed for Christ.  As my future posts will argue, the Bible teaches that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.

CAN PEOPLE BE RETRIEVED FROM HELL AND BROUGHT UP TO HEAVEN?

But let's take your Mom's question one step further.  The possibility of soul retrievals is a major theme of Bruce Moen's site.   Admittedly, I've yet to read about a single retrieval here that I find convincing.   But that's all blood under the bridge.  Despite my skepticism, I do believe such retrievals are possible.  Indeed, far from opposing this possiblity, Christianity provides the first literary case for soul retrievals in history.

We find this affirmation in the Apostles' Creed:
"He (Jesus] descended into Hell."  This affirmation is based in part on Peter's ciaim that, after His resurrection, Christ sought to gain the release of sinful human spirits who had been dead for thousands of years:

"He [Christ] was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago...(1 Peter 3:18-19)."

"Prison" is a common Jewish image for Hell.  The implication is that the unrighteous dead receive a new chance to repent and be "retrieved" to Heaven.  Peter then extends the potential for soul retrievals to include all the dead in Hell.  1n 1 Peter 4:5-6 it is no longer Christ who proclaims the Gospel to the dead;  rather He Himself is proclaimed to them, probably by deceased saints:

"They [pagans] will have to give account to Him [Christ] who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this reason HE WAS PREACHED EVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOW DEAD, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

Thus, the tragic verdict on our bodily existence can be reversed in the realm of spirit by Gospel proclamation and soul retrievals.  The souls selected for retrieval have presumably evolved to the point where they are ready to move on to a higher spirit plane, a Heaven.

Jews begin praying for the dead prior to Christ (e.g. in the Catholic Bible see 2 Maccabees 12:41-45).  In  the early church this practice evolves into proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead.  We encounter this mysteriously lost rite in 1 Corinthians 15:28-29.   Here Paul hints at his belief (expressed more clearly elsewhere) in the possibility that all humanity will eventually be saved.  He insists that God will ultimately "be everything to everyone" and implies that proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead is part of that process.  Paul's invocation of this practice in support of Christian doctrine means that we cannot dismiss it on the grounds that it is an obscure and soon to be ignored aspect of early Christian ritual.

In the early 2nd century, this practice is reinforced by a belief in postmortem baptism in the Acherusia lake near the Elysian field.  The early church borrowed these locales from Greek mythology and incorporated them into its vision of Heaven.  Consider these two quotes from orthodox Christian apocalyptic from the first half of the 2nd century:

"[Christ:] Then I will grant God to them (the damned), if they call to me (in their torment) and I will give them a precious baptism for salvation in the Acherusia lake, which...is located in the Elysian field, the portion of the righteous with the saints
(Apocalypse of Peter 14--from 135 AD)."

"To the devout, when they ask eternal God, HE WILL GRANT THEM TO SAVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE DEVOURING FIRE AND FROM EVERLASTING TORMENTS.  For having gathered them again from the unwearying flame and set them elsewhere, He will send them FOR HIS PEOPLE'S SAKE into another life, indeed an eternal one, with the immortals, in the Elysian plain, where are the long waves of the ever-flowing, deep-bosomed Acherusia lake (Christian Sibylline Oracles II:331-38
from 150 AD)."

Consider the contrast between this vision of Heaven and another early patristic vision, which  imagines the righteous sitting in Heaven's Colosseum and enjoying the role reversal of damned Romans in the arena below.  The texts just quoted hint at a much nobler Christian perspective that is at times implied, but is never made explicit, namely that none of us ultimately make it unless we all make it.  Your success is my success; your failure is my failure.  I like the way a  missionary to China, C. T, Studd, expresses this attitude in a charming little ditty:

"Some wish to live within the sound of church and chapel bell.  I wish to run a rescue mission within a yard of Hell."

As a realm of pure unconditional love, Heaven cannot truly remain Heaven for the righteous unless they dedicate themselves to facilitating the growth and liberation of denizens of Hell and the lower Heavens.  Fire is an early Christian symbol of this purification process.

The seeds of this teaching appear in John's Apocalypse.  To see this, it helps to realize that John the seer does not comprehend every aspect of his otherworldly journeys and that, if he did, he might well grimace at the teachings being disclosed to him.  He and his beloved churches are being persecuted by both the Romans and local synagogues.  John is shown Heaven through the image of a hovering New Jerusalem and learns that Heaven's gates can never be shut (Revelation 21:25).  This image implies eternal traffic coming and going.  But going out on what missions?  Why would anyone leave Heaven?  We are told that "outside" are the evil souls residing in Hell (22:15).  So the image allows for soul retrievals from Hell.

This interpretation finds reinforcement from two other texts in Revelation: (1) John's vision of everyone in Hell (i.e. "those under the earth") joining all humanity in the worship of God and Christ (5:13); (2) the intriguing mystery of the unidentified "2nd resurrection."  That is, his visions assume a pattern of first death, followed by "first resurrection" and "second death" followed by 2nd resurrection (20:6).  But John never identifies the 2nd resurrection.  His anger at his persecutors probably makes him reluctant to do so.  It is usually assumed that the 2nd resurrection precedes the Great White Throne judgment (20:11ff.).  But that assumption places the 2nd resurrection before the 2nd death.  Besides, resurrection ("anastasis")implies the concept of being raised up and there is no implication that the dead are "raised up" to Heaven for the Great White Throne judgment.  The 2nd death is the lake of fire.  So to maintain the pattern first death, then first resurrection and 2nd death, then 2nd resurrection, the 2nd resurrection must surely be retrieval from the lake of fire.  Only Heaven's eternally open gates make sense as the vehicle for the 2nd resurrection. 

The prospect of universal salvation through soul retrievals also seems implicit in the hymn in Philippians 2:6-11:

"therefore, God has highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven, on earth, AND UNDER THE EARTH, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (2:9-11)."

In this hymn everyone in the universe makes this saving confession.  "Every knee...under the earth" refers to everyone in Hell.  For Paul, the confession, "Jesus Christ is Lord", cannot be uttered apart from the Holy Spirit's inspiration, if it is sincerely uttered (1 Corinthians 12:3), and this confession automatically makes one a Christian (Romans 10:9-10).  The Philippian hymn must have in mind the salvation of the hellbound confessors because it is based on the invitation to universal salvation in Isaiah 45:22-23: "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth...Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear."  The hymn's glorious image resembles John's vision of everyone in Hell worshiping God and Christ in Revelation 5:13.

Some might object to this perspective by invoking texts like Hebrews 9:27: "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment."  But one must ask, "What happens after the judgment?"  Or for similar texts, one must ask, "What happens after the wrath, the exclusion from God's kingdom, and the consignment to Hell?"  In this respect, it is important to realize that neither in Hebrew nor in Greek do the words translated "eternal" mean that.  Rather, they mean "for an indefinitely long period of time."  Thus, in Judaeo-Christian literature from late antiquity, "eternal sleep" can be followed by a new and positive status.

So what about sayings like John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me?"   In the afterlife Christ can redeem those who never believed in Him during their earthly lives.  Christ Himself performs soul retrievals (1 Peter 3:18-20) and other retrievals from Hell are performed through opportunities to respond to the Gospel (see e.g. 1 Peter 4:6).  In short, God's desire to save everyone never changes and God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.  Perhaps, God's omnipotence even allows Him to reclaim those who have opted for soul annihilation.  That prospect must remain an open question for now.

Don