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Spitfire's Theological Issues (Read 42814 times)
Rondele
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #90 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 11:12am
 
Don-

You continue to force people to think instead of just blindly accepting the new age yadda yadda feel good stuff.

Fact is, people who repeat the new age mantras about how we supposedly write our own life script before incarnating are just repeating what they read.  None of them know this as an indisputable fact.

Cheerleaders are great at football games, but really don't add one iota to our knowledge base when it comes to afterlife questions and concerns.

At the same time, however, I will acknowledge that our intellect falls woefully short in terms of truly grasping what lies beyond.  I don't think we will ever be able to use our brains to get from here to there.  That kind of knowledge is of a whole different kind and quality. 

We really do need to "look within."  But where "within" is and what it is, I have no idea.  It's probably some sort of spiritual awakening that is wholly apart from our brain and intellect. 

Which is why we all could be on this board for another 100 years and we wouldn't be any further ahead.
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #91 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 4:32pm
 
[Rondele, your timely warning provides a good segue to Craig's question about "blind faith."   But first I will tie up some loose ends about the practical implications of Christ's  Atonement.]

During his NDE, Howard Storm is predictably informed by Christ’s angels: “No one will go to God except through the atonement of Christ, the love of Christ, and the way of Christ ("My Descent into Death," 67).”  But Christ's atoning death embraces all humanity and not just Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14-15). His Spirit can be mediated in a different form through non-Christian traditions.  Righteous unbelievers will get a new chance to know Christ in the afterlife.  The angels tell Storm,  

“In our progression towards God we will meet the Divine Activity of God, who is known to Christians as Jesus Christ.   People who were not Christians must know the Christ as well.   No one approaches God who does not know the mediator of God....This personification of God has been everywhere throughout all time and space--creating, restoring, and sustaining us in the divine will (55)."

“Gradually, in just the right increments, we will be like him [Christ], while we maintain our dignity and unique qualities.  What separates us from God is our own sense of separateness.   What unites us with God is awareness of our oneness with God.  We have learned our separateness through experience and we will learn our oneness through the same process (Storm, 56)."

In reply 87, I pointed out that the theological implications of Christ’s atonement are less important than its practical implications for basic life motivations and daily living.  These implications are often overlooked.   On the one hand, people with flawed theologies from other faiths may manifest the grace-based lifestyle and gratitude towards God that the Gospel calls for.  Righteous non-Christians can be saved apart from formal profession of faith in Christ.  See my biblical defense of this claim in reply 24.  Howard Storm is surprised by the angels’ answer to his question:  

“Question: Which is the best religion?  I was expecting them to answer with something like Methodist or Presbyterian or Catholic, or some other denomination.   They answered, `The religion that brings you closest to God (73).”

On the other hand, many Christians fall far short of the Gospel’s  requirements for daily living.   In the Monroe-Moen model, Focus 27 (= Paradise) is a more advanced realm--a realm of greater love and freedom--than the hollow heavens of Focus 25-26.  In Christian parlance, Paradise is located in the 3rd heaven, but the two lower heavens seem the equivalent of Focus 25 and 26.  Paradise is the preferred port of entry to the afterlife, but many Christians will require an extended educational process before their quality of consciousness is up to the challenges of the grace-based orientation required for life in the higher heavens.  In our age of instant gratification, most Christians are not ready to hear this lesson, which is echoed by Swedenborg’s insights.

Don
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #92 - Mar 12th, 2006 at 6:47pm
 
(5) WHY FAITH WITHOUT CONCLUSIVE PROOF:

Practically speaking, Craig's next question is the most crucial of all: "Why would god demand that we have blind faith?" The answer is necessarily complex and must be explored from a variety of aspects.  In this post, I will limit myself to 2 issues:
(1) Can we reason our way to knowledge of God?  
(2) What is the feel of the transforming moment?

(1) No, we can't simply reason our way to communion with God.  Jesus says, "No one really knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him (Matthew 11:27).”  The same point is made by Paul in a different way: “People who aren’t believers can’t understand these words from God’s Spirit.  It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means (1 Corinthians 2:13).”  

These texts raise the questions: (a) Under what circumstances does Christ choose to reveal God to us?  (b) How do we receive the Holy Spirit and the spiritual discernment that comes with this?  For now we can find reassurance in Jesus' promise:

“People can’t come to me unless that Father who sent me draws them to me...However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them (John 6:44).”

(2) Let's skip to Q2 of our opening salvo: "What is the feel of the transforming moment?"  The answer is elusive and varies from person to person.  Jesus expresses this variation by punning on the word "Spirit" which in both Aramaic and Greek is the same as the word for "wind:"

“Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit (John 3:8).”

Just how mysterious this transforming moment can be is eloquently illustrated by C. S. Lewis's description of the last 2 stages of his journey from atheism to faith in his book "Surprised by Joy."  Lewis was the Oxford scholar who inspired Tolkien to write the trilogy "The Lord of the Rings."  Lewis became a prolific Christian author.   His children's book 'The Chronicles of Narnia" was recently made into a Hollywood blockbuster.   The sensitive movie "The Shadowlands" portrays his faith crisis triggered by his wife's death in his later years.  Listen to how this profoundly articulate man describes the last 2 ineffable events that marked his transition from skeptic to believer.  His first moment envelops him during a London bus ride:  

(a)“The odd thing was that before God closed in on me, I was in fact offered what now appears a moment of wholly free choice.  In a sense, I was going up Headingly Hill on the top of a bus.  Without words and (I think) almost without images, a fact about myself was somehow presented to me.  I became aware that I was holding something at bay, or shutting something out.  Or, if you like, that I was wearing some stiff clothing, like corsets, or even a suit of armor, as if I were a lobster.  I felt myself, there and then, given a free choice.  I could open the door or keep it shut; I could unbuckle the armor or keep it on.  Neither choice was presented as a duty; no threat or promise was attached to either, though I knew that to open the door or to take off the corset meant the incalculable.  The choice appeared to be momentous but it was also strangely unemotional.  I was moved by no desires or fears....I chose to unbuckle, to loosen the rein...I felt as if I were a man of snow at long last beginning to melt...I rather disliked the feeling (224-225).”    

His 2nd moment occurs during a car ride to the zoo:
(b) “I know very well when, but hardly how, the final step was taken.  I was driven to Whipsnade [zoo] one sunny morning.  When we set out I did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and when we reached the zoo I did.   Yet I had not exactly spent the journey in thought.  Nor in great emotion....It was more like when a man, after long sleep, still lying motionless in bed, becomes aware that he is now awake (237).”

One misunderstanding about the transforming moment needs to be cleared up.  When the Psalmist entertains the possibility of knowing God (e. g. 36:10), he means acknowledging God or knowing about God's principles.  But what about the possibility of knowing God in the sense of entering mystical communion with "Him"?   Paul deems this impossible but urges us to reverse the image.  We need God to get to know us intimately!

"Now that you know God, or are rather known by God...(Gal 4:9).”
‘The person who loves God is known by God (1 Corinthians 8:3).”
Now, I know (God) only in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known (by God--13:12).”

A Medieval mystical classic called “The Cloud of Unknowing” beautifully expresses Paul's thought here in terms of the poetic image of skyward ascent.  God is too grand, complex, and ineffable for us to know "Him" in this life.  As we ascend to the clouds, we can sense the warmth of divine love and radiance, but we cannot see it.   We have the sense of being enveloped, of being known in a mysterious new way.   When we descend, we do not really know God, but we sense that God has come to know us in the sense of an intimate bond and communion.   Of course, this in no way clashes with divine omiscience.   God always knew all the facts about us.   No, this sort of divine knowing plays off the Old Testament use of "to know" in the sense of sexual union.   God interpenetrates us with the divine equivalent of an emotional bond by which He becomes our Father and dearest Friend.

I'd appreciate your questions and comments and will allow those to detour me from my prior agenda for developing my response to the issue of blind faith.

Don

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Rondele
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #93 - Mar 13th, 2006 at 10:29am
 
Don-

There's a lot here to digest.  I'm sure I'll have more comments/questions, but here's my initial reaction.

Regarding the quote from Storm- "What separates us from God is our own sense of separateness.   What unites us with God is awareness of our oneness with God.  We have learned our separateness through experience and we will learn our oneness through the same process." 

This is interesting because it's very close to ACIM, which says that we ourselves initiated the separation from God and yet the separation is an illusion. We really never left.

Note that Storm says we will "learn" the fact of our Oneness.  I gather he means we are already One, we just don't know it.  Again, a parallel to ACIM.

I like what Lewis had to say about his trip to God.  I can relate 100% except that I haven't reached the transformative stage yet (even tho a couple of months ago I too was on a bus trip thru London.)

Regarding why documented cases of the deceased contacting the living are so rare....that does present a real dilemma.  I agree with Matthew when he says that even if a medium is using ESP rather than really being in contact with the dead, that in itself is remarkable and has some heavy implications. 

How is it that ES was able to easily go into the afterlife?  How is it that a grieving widow is presented with powerful evidence that her late husband is still alive.....witnessed by several others in the room with her?  But then, WHY is it that for 99.9% of the rest of us, nothing happens?

Maybe there really is a "thin place" as per Celtic mythology, where the membrane between the two worlds occasionally becomes such that we can see the other side.  That's as good an explanation as any.

Roger

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Ellen2
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #94 - Mar 13th, 2006 at 3:04pm
 
Don:

Regarding the impossibility of reasoning our way to God, I don't know what to make of the frequent references about God choosing certain of us:  "No one really knows the Father except the Son & those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him"; "those the Father has given me will come to me"; & throughout John there are so many repititions along the lines of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).  When you asked "Under what circumstances does Christ choose to reveal God to us?", by "us" do you mean those chosen, & what would be God's criteria?  If God loves & forgives us all unconditionally, what is the meaning of this "chosen"?

So much food for thought regarding "the transforming moment".  Something about C.S. Lewis just resonates:  "without words, almost without images", no threat or promise attached to a momentous choice, the incalculableness of it all, wierd how you can be greatly moved but not in great emotion.  And the fine distinction you presented regarding two types of "knowing".  I'm just speechless about it all.

Ellen
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #95 - Mar 15th, 2006 at 7:07pm
 
Honest seekers like Craig encounter a fundamental problem in their quest to establish an intimate relationship with God:

"It is impossible to please God without faith.   Anyone who wants to come to Him must believe that there is a God and  that He rewards those who sincerely seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).”

Without self-authenticating experiences of God's presence, how can faith be anything but blind?  There is a twofold answer: (1) God can graciously provide such experiences at any point during one's quest.  Paul celebrates the verifications that routinely accompany his Gospel presentations:

“When I first came to you, I didn’t use lofty words and brilliant ideas to tell you God’s message.   For I decided to concentrate on Jesus Christ and His death on the cross.  I came to you in weakness-- timid and trembling.  And my message and my preaching were very plain.  And what I spoke and proclaimed was not meant to convince by philosophical argument, but to demonstrate the convincing power of the Spirit, so that your faith should depend not on human wisdom, but on the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:1-5).”

Paul warns of the danger of replacing an experience
-based faith with legalistic doctrine and practice:

“Let me ask you this one question:...Does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of Moses?   Of course not!  It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ (Galatians 3:2, 5).”

(2) Ellen asked about how God "chooses" to reveal His Son to us or how the skeptic can receive life-changing faith.  The answer is twofold.  (a) Our basic orentation must be that of an explorer taking a risk to discover a great treasure.  Jesus makes this point in His Parable of the Treasure Hidden in a Field (Matthew 13:44).  St. Anselm succinctly expresses the nature of this quest: "The believer does not seek to understand in order to believe, but he believes in order to understand.”  The quest is not "blind" because of the inevitable payoff down the road and because of our heart-shaped vacuum that functions like a homing device to draw us to God's grace.  As St. Augustine's prayer puts it: “You have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you.”

(b) The Risen Christ challenges us: “Look!  Here I stand at the door and knock.  If you hear me calling and open the door, I wlll come in, and we will share a meal as friends (Rev. 3:20).”  The second way the skeptic can receive life-changing faith is to learn how to open his heart's door to Christ.

The door cannot be open without being absolutely honest with God.  This honesty requires a frank expression of one's misgivings and skepticism to the God whose existence still seems uncertain to you.  Spiritual integrity also requires a willingness to abandon all pretense and to confess one's inadequacies, weaknesses, and sins (1 John 1:9).

But confession is not enough.   We must also count the cost of discipleship and focus our intent on paying that price in the event that God gives us a marvelous experience of His grace (Luke 14:28-33).  This provisional step is essential for showing God that you are serious about your willingness to "surrender" to Him with all your heart:

“And if you search for Him with all your heart and soul, you will find Him (Deuteronomy 4:29).”
“If you search for me in earnest, you will find me when you seek me (Jeremiah 29:13).”

These principles are movingly illustrated by the transformation of lawyer Chuck Colson from President Nixon's hatchet man during Watergate to a promoter of prison ministries.   After his conversion, Colson would humbly remind reporters that at times Nixon tried to stop his "dirty tricks" and insisted that Colson not blame others for Nixon's moral failings.  Nixon was like a cornered rat, but retained redeeming spiritual qualities.   The turning point in Colson's spiritual quest came after he visited Tom Phillips, the President of Raytheon, who had recently converted to Christianity.   Colson describes the transforming moment when he left Phillips' home and sat in his car:

”I remember hoping that Tom and Gert wouldn’t hear my sobbing, the only sound other than the chirping of crickets that penetrated the still of the night.   With my head cupped in my hands, head leaning forward against the wheel, I forgot about machismo, about pretenses, about fears of being weak.  And as I did, I began to experience a wonderful feeling of being released.  Then came  the strange sensation that water was not only running down my cheeks, but surging through my whole body as well, cleansing and cooling as it went....And then I prayed my first real prayer. `God, I don’t know how to find You, but I’m going to try!  I’M NOT MUCH THE WAY I AM NOW, BUT SOMEHOW I WANT TO GIVE MYSELF TO YOU.’  I didn’t know how to say more, so I repeated over and over the words: `Take me’.  I had not `accepted’ Christ--I still didn’t know who He was.  My mind told me it was important to find that out first, TO BE  SURE THAT I KNEW WHAT I WAS DOING, THAT I MEANT IT AND WOULD  STAY WITH IT.  Only, that night something inside me was urging me to surrender--to what or to whom I did not know (Charles Colson, "born Again", 116f.)."          

Colson's conversion was sealed by his reading of C. S. Lewis's book, "Mere Christianity," which Tom Phillips had given him.  Colson's previous mortal enemy, Democrat Senator Harold Hughes, now became like a brother to Chuck and saw him through his ordeal of trial and imprisonment.  

I must more fully explain the proper relationship between faith and reason and offer personal experiences of how God vindicated my doubt-plagued quest to establish a relationship with Him.

Don
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #96 - Mar 16th, 2006 at 8:27am
 
Very well written, Don.  It is interesting to me, because in all the books and information about thought creating reality what is required is not a mere wish (for a healing or personal gain), but a belief that it has actually happened and will happen.  Along with this, many suggest a feeling of thanks for the achievement (one source I read even quoted a man who achieved his goal with the intention, followed by saying "thank you, father."  Although he was not a religious man, this method was effective for him.  This is the kind of faith in God you speak of, and I have seen biblical quotes to support it.

If as human beings, we are true co-creators; if the divine spark is within us, though we are but a small part of the great whole, then in order to create, faith and belief must come first.  Thought or intention that is not grounded in faith is fleeting and has no real result or manifestation.


Matthew
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Spitfire
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #97 - Mar 16th, 2006 at 4:03pm
 
If god performs a miracle  for one, does'nt that meen alot of the time, another will be affected negatively, by gods actions.

like the eygptions, god killed alot of the eygption population for the sake of a few isralites.

it's like giving one kid a candy bar, makes the other one jealous, and the future actions of this jealousey are the indirect results of gods interferance.

while i could relate this back to your previous post about god, knowing what the affects will be, and judges them to be beneficial in the long run.

does gods act, circumvent free will.
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #98 - Mar 22nd, 2006 at 4:21am
 
Craig, you just raised agenda question #6 about the death of the firstborn sons in Egypt during the 10 plagues.  I think it best to respond by offering my views on many of the events associated with the Israelite exodus from Egyptian slavery (c. 1260 BC).   On one level, all these events can be explained naturally.  But on another level, the combination of all these coincidences at the same time can be interpreted as a sign of divine providence.  Also, it must be remembered that the Old Testament often fails to distinguish between the active and the permissive will of God.

I like Dr. John Marr's interpretation of the plagues.  The first plague, "the river of blood," is a perfect description of the toxic algae bloom "Physteria," which dissolves the still living fish and makes the water toxic and red.  The absence of fish allowed the 2nd plague (frogs) because there were not enough fish to keep down the number of tadpoles.  The 3rd plague was the midge "coolacoidees," which spreads the blue tongue for cattle and African horse sickness, two diseases which nicely fit the 5th plague.  The 6th plague (boils) was caused by a bacterial infection (Glanders) which is carried by stable fies, which were the 4th plague.  Plague #7 was a massive hailstorm and Plague #9 (darkness) was a massive standstorm.  Plague #8 (locusts) infected the grain with locust droppings, producing Plague #10, the death of the firstborn sons.  This plague was caused by the storage of the wet grain harvest. The grain storage pits were then covered with sand.  This made them hot and humid--ideal conditions for growing the lethal "Stachybotrys atra" bacteria.  Why did this outbreak only kill the firstborn sons?  First, it only affected the top part of the grain store, and the firstborn Egyptian sons got the first servings.   Second, the Egyptian firstborn were given an extra helping of the best food.  By contrast, the Israelites lived in a different area (Goshen) that might have escaped this infection.  In any case, they were employing different methods for food preparation that didn't concentrate the infected grain into lethal doses.
 
The biblical Hebrew “yam suph,” has often been  mistranslated “Red Sea,” but it really means “Reed Sea.”   This is important for two reasons: (1) There are no reeds along the Red Sea, but reeds abound along the lakes (Menzaleh and Timsah) near the Hebrew captivity.   (2) About once a century, a dry path has been known to emerge through these lakes through a combination of unusually strong wind and tide conditions. The miracle, then, is the perfect timing of this very rare natural event with the Israelite flight from slavery.

One might object that there is no mention of the Hebrew exodus in the contemporary Egyptian daybooks and journals.   This objection may be summarily dismissed on 4 grounds: (1) Over 99% of the relevant Egyptian sources are missing for the exodus period.  (2) In any case, the Egyptians only recorded triumphant news that served their propangandistic purposes.   For example, they put a deceptively positive spin on their military reversals or standoffs. (3) Besides, in precisely the period when the Israelites enter Canaan, the first ever Egyptian allusion to “Israel” appears in the Pharaoh Merneptah’s stele.  (4) The Reed Sea Crossing occurred in the 13th century and is already celebrated as early as the 12th century Song of the Sea in Exodus 15.   Tbis implies a reasonable family connection with eyewitnesses of an earlier generation. 

The historicity of the exodus can be defended on other grounds as well.  Many of the Hebrews in the Exodus story had Egyptian names (e.g. Moses, Aaron, Hophni, Phinehas, Merari).  The Hebrew slaves were forced to build the capital at “Raamses” (Exodus 1:11).  But after the 11th century this identification is dropped in favor of  “Tanis.”  The method of Israelite brick-making in Egypt is archeologically confirmed as ancient Egyptian building practice, but it is unknown in ancient Palestine.  So if the Exodus story were a later invention, one would expect the capital to be called Tanis and  the building methods to be Palestinian, not Egyptian.  

One should not be surprised that the escaping Hebrews retained several possessions.  Egyptian slavery might better be labelled forced labor.   The “slaves” were permitted to retain their possessions and valuables.  

The Israelites benefit from water gushing from a rock.   Even in our day, archaeologists have discovered considerable amounts of water trapped in some desert rocks in the Sinai. The Israelites twice feast on the evening migration of quail from what is now Turkey, once each at the Gulfs of Suez (Exodus 16:13) and of Aqaba (Numbers 11:31),  These are precisely the areas and time of day still overflown by quail in Spring, the season applicable to these two biblical references. The Israelites reportedly also feast on “manna”, which is formed by the secretions of various insects that feed off desert tamerisk bushes. In Hebrew "manna" means "What is it (Exodus 16:15)?"   The Israelites understandably viewed this tasty delicacy as a divine provision in the desert.  But one wonders whether they would have gladly devoured manna, had they known they are eating insect excrement!   In any case, "manna" remains an Arab delicacy to this day.

Don
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #99 - Mar 22nd, 2006 at 11:23pm
 
Very well done, Don.  A scholarly and logical explanation of the plagues and their consequences.  How does this address Spitfire's point that the directed consciousness of God would favor some of his children over others or inflict suffering as a divine punishment?  In some ways, your natural explanations for the plagues implies that it was mere coincidence or divine synchronicity that allowed the plagues to benefit God's chosen people.  I doubt this was your point, however.

Please explain.  Due to recent events, I may be more dense than usual today.

Matthew
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #100 - Mar 23rd, 2006 at 5:25pm
 
Matthew,

To a great extent, I've already answered your question in reply #32 ("The Problem of Natural Evil and the Seemingly Unfair Distribution of Pain"), with elaborations in replies #22, 35, 51, and 64.  In these replies I explain why ours may be the ideal world for soul-making because of, not in spite of, all the seemingly unfair suffering.  But let me add these clarifying comments.  God wants both a universe and intelligent beings that are "not God."  The Bible claims that the natural forces of chaos operate independently of God's active will (e. g. Ecclesiastes 9:11).  The natural phenomena that generate the the Egyptian plagues are substantially interconnected.   God may have unleashed the natural forces that produced these plagues without micromanaging their impact on specific individuals.  And yes, these plagues do function as a divine judgment upon a slave-based Egyptian society.  

Does this mean that God is not "good" in the same sense as humans?  Of course!  The Bible concedes this point and warns of the dangers of an excessively anthropomorphic interpretation of biblical descriptions of God:

[God:] "I form the light and I create the darkness.  I make well-being and I create disaster.  I, the Lord, do all these things (Isaiah 45:7)."

"My  thoughts are completely different from yours, says the Lord.  And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.  For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9)."

Jesus confirms this perspective on natural chaos during atheist Howard Storm's NDE:

"God knows everything that will happen and, more important, God knows everything that could happen.  From one moment to the next, God is aware of every possible variable of every event and each outcome.  God doesn't control or dictate the outcome of every event, which would be a violation of God's creation.  This is because every bit of energy and matter has its own integrity and course to fulfill ("My Descent into Death" 38)."

It is precisely for this reason that the preexistent Christ is labelled the Logos (John 1:1, 14) or the rational self-expression of God as opposed to God in His unknowability.   Our claim that God is love must be limited to His promises, His gracious acts in history, His intimate communion with faith-based humans, and His relentless pursuit of justice and soul evolution for humans beyond the grave.

Don
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #101 - Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:54pm
 
THE CASE FOR JESUS' RESURRCTION

Peter issues this challenge to Christians: "If you are asked about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it (1 Peter 3:15)."  There is no substitute for personal experience of God's gracious presence.  But a relationship between faith and reason is vital for preventing faith from becoming blindly absurd.   The central claim of Christianity must be in principle falsifiable and yet in fact be unfalsified.  Paul admits that if Jesus never actually rose from the dead, the Christian faith is a tragic waste of time (1 Corinthians 15:17).

First century Jews contend that Jesus' disciples must have stolen his corpse to promote the claim that He had risen from the dead (so Matthew and Justin Martyr).  Around 40 AD the Romans post a sign at Nazareth warning against grave robbery.  Why would they post such a sign at Nazareth and nowhere else in Palestine unless they too believe the disciples stole Jesus' body?  So neither the Jews nor the Romans seem to know what happened to the body!  It seems we must choose between the reality of Jesus' bodily resurrection and the theft of His body by His disciples.  If so, then the plausibility of the resurrection is enhanced by the implausibility of supposing that the disciples would be willing to endure intense persecution for a faith that they knew to be groundless.  So the claim that the disciples stole Jesus' body plays into the hands of Christian missionaries.  It is perhaps for this reason that by 200 AD Jews have recognized the need to explain away the empty tomb in a more compelling way.  They now speculate that the gardener had removed Jesus' body because he did not want Christian sightseers stepping on his lettuce (so Tertullian)! 

It is clear that Mary Magdalene is neither a prostitute nor Jesus' wife.  But she is one of a group of Jesus' female disciples who support Him financially (Luke 8:1-3).  She is clearly Jesus' most important female disciple and is later celebrated as "the apostle of the apostles."  Together with other women, she witnesses His crucifixion, follows Joseph of Arimathea to Jesus' burial place, and is the first to witness the Risen Christ (Matthew 28:8-10; John 20:11-18).  Paul's sources may have deemed it counterproductive to include this appearance in the list preserved in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 because female testimony is even discounted in the courts.  But precisely for this reason it seems unlikely that Christ's appearance to Mary Magdalene would be invented.

The earliest and best source for Jesus' resurrection appearances is 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.  Paul compiled this list after two trips to the Jerusalem church during which he conversed with Peter and Jesus' brother James, both of whom experienced a private resurrecton appearance.  Paul's list identifies  Peter as the first male disciple to see the Risen Jesus and this is confirmed by Luke 24:34.
The appearance to Peter restores his status as the leader of the Twelve after the disgrace of his triple denial in the high priest's courtyard that he ever knew Jesus (Mark 14:66-72).   The appearance to James explains both the conversion of Jesus' brothers and why Jesus' brother can later replace Peter as the supreme leader of the Jerusalem church.  During Jesus' public ministry, His brothers don't believe His claims (John 7:5) and even try to physically restrain Him when He neglects to provide a lunch break during a teaching session (Mark 3:19-21).  Jesus once complains about the lack of respect accorded Him by His own family (Mark 6:4).  But after Jesus' private appearance to His brother James, Jesus' brothers are converted and join the disciples' post-resurrection prayer vigil in the Upper Room (Acts 1:14).   The last appearance--to Paul --explains his transformation from an avid persecutor of Christians to the church's greatest apostle. 

Jesus' appearence to 500 believers is recorded nowhere in the Gospels.  Paul insists that most of the eyewitnesses to this appearance are still alive to verify it.  This appearance must have interrupted one of the the church's earliest outdoor worship services.  Other than the Temple, no Jerusalem building was large enough to host 500 believers.

Paul's report of two appearances to the disciples as a group explains how there could be Gospel traditions of appearances to the Twelve in both Jerusalem (Luke 24:36-49; John 20:19-29) and in Galilee (Matthew 18:16-20; John 21). 

In my next planned post, I will explain how the Gospels can be connected with eyewitness testimony.

Don
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #102 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 7:04pm
 
THE GOSPELS AS EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY

Mark’s Gospel can be connected with eyewitness testimony in two ways.   (1) The earliest Jerusalem church meets in the home of Mark’s mother (Acts 12:12).  As a young man, then, Mark has many opportunities to hear from the apostles and Jesus’ family members.  (2) In Rome Peter expresses affection for his missionary travel companion, Mark (1 Peter 5:13).and Bishop Papias (c. 60-130 AD) recognizes Mark’s role as Peter’s interpreter. Papias describes how Mark shapes Peter’s teaching notes on Jesus’ life into our Gospel, probably after Peter is executed by Emperor Nero.  Papias's evidence is important because he prefers “the living voice” of eyewitness testimony to written sources and because he has access both the apostles and those trained by the apostles (Papias as quoted in Eusebius HE 3.29. 4 and 15).  The many Latinisms in Mark’s Gospel support Rome as its place of origin.  

Further corroboration of Mark’s historicity can be detected in embarrassing details about Jesus’  healing ministry that are not likely to be later inventions.   When Jesus’ prays for the blind man of Bethsaida, the man’s eyes are initially only partially healed.  Only after a second prayer session is this blind man healed completey Mk 8:22-26).  A fictional account would have portrayed Jesus’ healing efforts as succeeding on His first attempt.   Jesus’ initial failure poses no problem as long as the guy's blindness is eventually cured!   Mark also has the integrity to report that Jesus’ ministry was initially not respected in His home town even by His family (6:4).  The negative energy in Nazareth actually hampers Jesus’ ability to perform miraces there: “Because of their unbelief, He could do no mighty miracles among them...(6:5).”  A later scribe adds an “except” clause to remove the iimplication that  Jesus’ totally bombed in Nazareth.   Mark’s willingness to report the failure of Jesus’ healing ministry in Nazareth lends credibility to Mark’s (Peter's) reports about Jesus’ spectacular miracles elsewhere!    

Papias laments contemporary complaints that Mark put some of events in Jesus’ life in the wrong sequence.  This problem seems inevitable, given that Mark is relying on Peter’s teaching notes, not on a finished biography of Jesus’ life.   In any case, this complaint implies a connection with an eyewitness source who verifies the truth of Mark’s stories but, unlike Mark, knows the correct sequence of events in Jesus’ life.

Papias’s apostolic sources inform him that "Matthew complied the sayings of Jesus in the Hebrew language. but everyone translated them as he was able (Eusebius HE 3.39.15).”  This seems to mply that Matthew compiled the earliest and largest collection of Jesus’ sayings in a source modern scholars call Q.   This sayings source was copied by Matthew and Luke, but not by Mark and John.  Did Matthew also write the Gospel material unique to the Gospel that bears his name?  Perhaps, but we have no independent verification of that fact.  

Luke the phsysician was St. Paul’s missionary travel companion.  Luke bases his Gospel on the testimony of “eyewitnesses” (Luke 1:2) which he received during his visit the disciples in Jerusalem (Acts 21:18). The Fourth Gospel is based on an eyewitness source known as “the disciple whom Jesus loved (John 19:35; 21:24).”  Early church tradition idienfies this source as the apostle John, the son of Zebedee, I think this disciple is in fact Jesus’ brother James.   Every time this anonymous disciple is mentioned the Fourth Gospel, the context supplies hints that point to James, not John.  But it would take far too much space to spell out this case in detail.

There is no evidence that first century Jewish skeptics ever dismiss Jesus’ alleged miracles as a myth.  On the contrary, they concede that eyewitnesses toJesus’ ministry would have seen apparent miracles. What they dispute is whether God is the source of Jesus’ supernatural power. Instead, these skeptics  eclaim that Jesus either performed miracles through demonic power (Luke 11:15) or faked miracles through “magically produced hallucinations (Justin, 1 Apology 14:5).  The evidence from first century skeptics to Jesus’ healing activity is significant.   In 125 AD, Quadratus is aware of contacts in “our own times” with people who were healed by Jesus.  Interestingly, Quadratus must refute charges that some of Jesus’ cures did not last (Quadratus as quoted in Eusebius EH 4.3.2).  It must be remembered that in Jesus’ day life expectancy was very short and people healed of one ailment might easily succumb to another ailment a few decades
later.  

Don
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #103 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 5:27pm
 
7. THE PROBLEM OF THE TIMING OF JESUS'
   INCARNATION:

God respects human free will to the point that He allows human cultural and technological evolution to progress at the pace that our creative enterprise permits.  Still, it is meaningful to specify 3 senses in which Jesus was born at the ideal time.

(1) Biographies of secular and political figures were written before Jesus' time.  But Jesus was born at a tme when biographies of revered figures become a new literary genre.   Our Gospels are examples of this new literary genre.  If Jesus had been born, say, a century earlier, his life story would never have been written.   The founder of the Dead Sea community is an outstanding example of a towering spiritual figure who was born over a century too early for the preservation of his life story.   So we know very little about his life, not even his name.  We must content ourselves with his honorary title "the Teacher of Righteousness" which is mentioned in the Dead Sea scrolls.

(2) In the Ancient Near East, people believed in demons long before Jesus' day.  So people are understandably under the false ijmpression that by the time of Jesus exorcisms in the Mediterranean world had already been performed for centuries.   By "exorcism" I mean the expulsion of an absolutely malevolent demon bent on spiritual harm, not the expulsion of a relatively harmless mischievous human spirit.   Jesus' teaches that His exorcisms demonstrate our new access to the power of "kingdom of God (Luke 11:20)."  In Jesus' day the exorcism of demons becomes a new possibility and we find evidence of several contemporary Jewish exorcists (Mark 9:38-40; Luke 11:19).  Shortly after Jesus' ministry, two of the most famous ancient exorcists begin their careers: the Palestinian Jewish exorcist, Hanina ben Dosa, and the Greek exorcist, Apollonius of Tyana.  

(3) The doctrine of Jesus' epresentative atonement cannot gain a sympathetic hearling until Jesus' day.  We find this doctrine in the Dead Sea scrolls and in the Maccabean literature.  The seeds of this doctrine can be found in Isaiah 53, but this prophecy is not applied to the Messiah until Jesus' time.  So if Jesus' were born two centuries earlier, His Gospel would never have received widespread acceptance.  The chief Jewish rival to the divine forgiveness mediated by Jesus' crucifixion is the sacrifice cultus in the Jerusalem Temple.  But these sacrifices are terminated by the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, an event prophesied by Jesus (Mark 13:1-4).  Thus, Jesus was born at the ideal time for the Gospel message.

These 3 grounds can only be offered as a partial response to Craig's question:  "God sends Jesus at a time in our history when there is no equipment to test his abilities?"  In reply #93, I explain why it is spiritually important for divine truth to be discovered by direct experience through a dsiciiplined  spiritual quest rather than as a logical deduction from rational proof.   But Craig's question has merit from this perspective: we need a fresh demonstration of Christ's claim on our lives for modern times.  I believe such a demonstration is forthcoming in the form of a future spiritual awakening.  i also believe that the watered down phenemenon of "cultural Christianity"  has till now been the major impediment to such an massive awakening.

Don
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Re: Spitfire's Theological Issues
Reply #104 - Apr 11th, 2006 at 10:26am
 
Hey don,

I hav'nt been replying as much, as i have just absorbing some of your posts.

I'll give you some point's,  which i contradict in a shortwhile.
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