hi spitfire Its the devil what causes all the misery on this earth not god and one day god shall throw him into the abyss for eternity JESUS WILL COME ON THIS EARTH AGAIN  and jesus died to save us all even though you were not born at the time spitfire to save all fitiure mankind as well GOD LOVES ALL HIS CHILDREN and he sent his beloved son to show us just that There is a lower plane in the afterlifewhere murderers and evil people go after they die and even then they have a chance to be saved THE VERY HIGHLY EVOLVED SPIRITS COME DOWN TO THE LOWEST PLANE AND OPEN THERE ARMS AND ASKED WHO WANT TO BE SAVEDAND TAKE THEM UP IF THEY DO but some of them are so evil that they refuse to move up SO GOD GIVES EVEN THOSE A CHANCE TO REMORSE FOR BEING EVIL    God is our salvation  GOD BLESS EVERYONE JUDITHA

Doc, you wrote:
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Craig,

1a.  Did God put the child into the violent situation?  This almost assumes no free will, which we here is present all the time.  I think the notion that God has a determined path and that we human beings are tossed around is a bit outdated.
You would need more info.  Is there such a thing as a past life or karma?  If that child goes to a hellish realm, by all rights so far that we know it is his/her mind that puts them there, not God.
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Don denies reincarnation, Doc... he is of the traditional Western "you only go 'round once, then Heaven-or-Hell" school of Christian thought.
Therefore, "karma" or past lives could have no bearing on Yahwist theodicy, or a person's postmortem destiny in a Yahwist universe (outside
of Gnostic Christianity perhaps. But I don't think Don is a Gnostic...)
So your statement to Spit, has no bearing on this
particular debate.
And as for the person who grows up in a violent environment, and finds themselves in a hellish afterlife environment... if reincarnation is untrue (as Don maintains) then outside of (grossly unfair!) "divine fiat" we can only assume the child CHOSE the violent environment prior to birth, as a freshly-created spirit. But who would deliberately choose a Hell-bound life before they'd even lived? (All this is assuming Yahwism as Ultimate Truth.)
Which brings us right back to Spit and his earnest - but unanswerable - inquiry.

B-man

2 points for ya to ponder...
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The only thing is, David:

How to account for NDE, mediums and other accounts that affirm the judeo-christian notion of God, separate from us each being God in disguise?
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1.) If there is a "universal God", Doc... all of us being "God" in disguise would be the ONLY good reason for us being here, no..? As "God's" way of experiencing physicality... BRAVO, Doc!!!
The alternative explanation (as fundie churches teach) being that "God was lonely and wanted company, so he created man" is perhaps the SILLIEST notion in all of metaphysics... "God" can be lonely? (e.g. he has a WEAKNESS??? So much for Divine Perfection.) This anthropomorphizing of a universal "God" holds NO water, Doc. We should necessarily discard the notion of an objective, "out there" "God" (at least so far as humans have conceived of one) if we are to assume "His" existence - unless we want to settle for Deism or something like it.)
_________________

If it is just a result of belief (you believe in God or Jesus and he appears to you at the end), that may be one answer.  But how to account for Swedenborg, and other's critical detailing of the afterlife and the divine?
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2.) If the universe is "mental" and experience cannot be defined objectively (as not only the ancient Egyptian and Greek philosophers believed, but many modern quantum physicists are coming to suspect) then the BELIEFS of an "adept" (such as Swedenborg) might indeed have a strong effect on what they experienced. In the case of Swedenborg, as a product of a Christian civilization, his experiences would naturally be Christian-flavored (just as Tibetan Buddhist's explorations tend to be Buddhist-flavored.) But did/does it reflect "Objective Truth?" Is there an "Objective Truth", anyway..? Does there even HAVE to be?
Maybe "Reality" (whatever it is!) is WAY more plastic than "common-sense", linear, evolved-from-ape-brains human thought tends to conceive it as? Could very well be...

B-man

[Craig:] "If God makes us to be unconditional beacons of light, and we are not, does that mean god is not omnipotent?"
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Craig, I notice that you seem to have a Greek philosophical (i.e. non-biblical) notion of omnipotence.   The ancient Hebrew mindset is not as precise in its word usage and never implies that God can even violate the law of noncontradiction, e.g. by lifting an unliftable object.  On the contrary, the Bible teaches that God limits His power and micro-management in His creation of the universe and intelligent life.  This point will be developed at length when I address your comments about physical evil and natural disasters.  

God is love and love desires freely offered love in return.   Robotic love would be an exercise in unsatisfying narcissism.  So God's purpose cannot be realized unless we are free to ignore God's will and accept the consequences.  Because these consequences are unconsciously self-chosen, they are ultimately an educational experience designed to inspire loftier priorities.   Perhaps, this will become clear when I address your next point:    

(Craig:] "If a person has never known love/ kindness, etc, they can't have a chance to get into the higher plane/ heaven."
______________________  

Craig, the quoted text (Luke 12:47-48) teaches that God judges us fairly according to the limitations of our role models and environment.  Thus, Jesus already implies the future "ascent" of such deprived souls to higher planes.  To make this point clear, It seems advisable to document the biblical and early Christian case for soul retrievals.  Christian texts provide the earliest LITERARY documentation of retrievals, though it is possible that shamanism was already engaging in retrievals.

We find this affirmation in the Apostles' Creed:
"He (Jesus] descended into Hell."  This affirmation is based in part on Peter's ciaim that, after His resurrection, Christ sought to gain the release of sinful human spirits who had been dead for thousands of years:

"He [Christ] was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago...(1 Peter 3:18-19)."

"Prison" is a common Jewish image for Hell.  The implication is that the unrighteous dead receive a new chance to repent and be "retrieved" to Heaven.  Peter then extends the potential for soul retrievals to include all the dead in Hell.  1n 1 Peter 4:5-6 it is no longer Christ who proclaims the Gospel to the dead;  rather He Himself is proclaimed to them, probably by deceased saints:

"They [pagans] will have to give account to Him [Christ] who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this reason HE WAS PREACHED EVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOW DEAD, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

Thus, the tragic verdict on our bodily existence can be reversed in the realm of spirit by Gospel proclamation and soul retrievals.  The souls selected for retrieval have presumably evolved to the point where they are ready to move on to a higher spirit plane, a Heaven.

Jews begin praying for the dead prior to Christ (e.g. in the Catholic Bible see 2 Maccabees 12:41-45).  In  the early church this practice evolves into proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead.  We encounter this mysteriously lost rite in 1 Corinthians 15:28-29.   Here Paul hints at his belief (expressed more clearly elsewhere) in the possibility that all humanity will eventually be saved.  He insists that God will ultimately "be everything to everyone" and implies that proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead is part of that process.  Paul's invocation of this practice in support of Christian doctrine means that we cannot dismiss it on the grounds that it is an obscure and soon to be ignored aspect of early Christian ritual.

In the early 2nd century, this practice is reinforced by a belief in postmortem baptism in the Acherusia lake near the Elysian field.  The early church borrowed these locales from Greek mythology and incorporated them into its vision of Heaven.  Consider these two quotes from orthodox Christian apocalyptic from the first half of the 2nd century:

"[Christ:] Then I will grant God to them (the damned), if they call to me (in their torment) and I will give them a precious baptism for salvation in the Acherusia lake, which...is located in the Elysian field, the portion of the righteous with the saints (Apocalypse of Peter 14--from 135 AD)."

"To the devout, when they ask eternal God, HE WILL GRANT THEM TO SAVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE DEVOURING FIRE AND FROM EVERLASTING TORMENTS.  For having gathered them again from the unwearying flame and set them elsewhere, He will send them FOR HIS PEOPLE'S SAKE into another life, indeed an eternal one, with the immortals, in the Elysian plain, where are the long waves of the ever-flowing, deep-bosomed Acherusia lake (Christian Sibylline Oracles II:331-38
from 150 AD)."

Now baptism in Greek means "immersion." Perhaps these poetic images of postmortem baptism are symbols for purification processes such as that experienced by Guenter Wagner during his NDE.  The Being of Light performed the "baptism":

"I received the impression that I would have to take a bath, but by dipping the whole body.  It was made plain to me that the process was going to be unpleasant, but I could stop it if it became too painful...I was willing to do what the Being of Light wanted me to do.  I was lifted up and put into a red light...After some time,  I realized that I was being tossed about rather vigorously.  It was like being in a washing machine.  I cried, `I think that is enough!'  Immediately, I was lowered down and the love and the warmth were switched off (Guenter Wagner--quoted from "near-death.com")."

Consider the contrast between these ancient apocalyptic visions of Heaven and another early patristic vision, which  imagines the righteous sitting in Heaven's Colosseum and enjoying the role reversal of damned Romans in the arena below.  The texts just quoted hint at a much nobler Christian perspective that is at times implied, but is never made explicit, namely that none of us ultimately make it unless we all make it.  Your success is my success; your failure is my failure.  I like the way a  missionary to China, C. T, Studd, expresses this attitude in a charming little ditty:

"Some wish to live within the sound of church and chapel bell.
I wish to run a rescue mission within a yard of Hell."

As a realm of pure unconditional love, Heaven cannot truly remain Heaven for the righteous unless they dedicate themselves to facilitating the growth and liberation of denizens of Hell and the lower Heavens.  Fire is an early Christian symbol of this purification process.

The seeds of this teaching appear in John's Apocalypse.  To see this, it helps to realize that John the seer does not comprehend every aspect of his otherworldly journeys and that, if he did, he might well grimace at the teachings being disclosed to him.  He and his beloved churches are being persecuted by both the Romans and local synagogues.  John is shown Heaven through the image of a hovering New Jerusalem and learns that Heaven's gates can never be shut (Revelation 21:25).  This image implies eternal traffic coming and going.  But going out on what missions?  Why would anyone leave Heaven?  We are told that "outside" are the evil souls residing in Hell (22:15).  So the image allows for soul retrievals from Hell.

This interpretation finds reinforcement from two other texts in Revelation: (1) John's vision of everyone in Hell (i.e. "those under the earth") joining all humanity in the worship of God and Christ (5:13); (2) the intriguing mystery of the unidentified "2nd resurrection."  That is, his visions assume a pattern of first death, followed by "first resurrection" and "second death" followed by 2nd resurrection (20:6).  But John never identifies the 2nd resurrection.  His anger at his persecutors probably makes him reluctant to do so.  It is usually assumed that the 2nd resurrection precedes the Great White Throne judgment (20:11ff.).  But that assumption places the 2nd resurrection before the 2nd death.  Besides, resurrection ("anastasis")implies the concept of being raised up and there is no implication that the dead are "raised up" to Heaven for the Great White Throne judgment.  The 2nd death is the lake of fire.  So to maintain the pattern first death, then first resurrection and 2nd death, then 2nd resurrection, the 2nd resurrection must surely be retrieval from the lake of fire.  Only Heaven's eternally open gates make sense as the vehicle for the 2nd resurrection.  

The prospect of universal salvation through soul retrievals also seems implicit in the hymn in Philippians 2:6-11:

"therefore, God has highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven, on earth, AND UNDER THE EARTH, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (2:9-11)."

In this hymn everyone in the universe makes this saving confession.  "Every knee...under the earth" refers to everyone in Hell.  For Paul, the confession, "Jesus Christ is Lord", cannot be uttered apart from the Holy Spirit's inspiration, if it is sincerely uttered (1 Corinthians 12:3), and this confession automatically makes one a Christian (Romans 10:9-10).  The Philippian hymn must have in mind the salvation of the hellbound confessors because it is based on the invitation to universal salvation in Isaiah 45:22-23: "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth...Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear."  The hymn's glorious image resembles John's vision of everyone in Hell worshiping God and Christ in Revelation 5:13.

Some might object to this perspective by invoking texts like Hebrews 9:27: "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment."  But one must ask, "What happens after the judgment?"  Or for similar texts, one must ask, "What happens after the wrath, the exclusion from God's kingdom, and the consignment to Hell?"  In this respect, it is important to realize that neither in Hebrew nor in Greek do the words translated "eternal" mean that.  Rather, they mean "for an indefinitely long period of time."  Thus, in Judaeo-Christian literature from late antiquity, "eternal sleep" can be followed by a new and positive status.

So what about sayings like John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me?"   In the afterlife Christ can redeem those who never believed in Him during their earthly lives.  Christ Himself performs soul retrievals (1 Peter 3:18-20) and other retrievals from Hell are performed through opportunities to respond to the Gospel (see e.g. 1 Peter 4:6).  In short, God's desire to save everyone never changes and God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.  Perhaps, God's omnipotence even allows Him to reclaim those who have opted for soul annihilation.  That prospect must remain an open question for now.

Don

FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR "SPIRITUAL" NON-CHRISTIANS TO GO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN AFTER DEATH?

The biblical teaching on evolutionary soul progression is related to the question of the fate of righteous non-Christians.  Consider this absurd argument.  "Let's not send food and medicine to starving children in Ethiopia and the Sudan.  If we save their lives, almost all of them will reach age 12, the age of accountability.  But then most of them will go to Hell because they haven't accepted Christ as their Savior.  Better to let them starve in the age of childlike innocence.  That way, they'll get to Heaven.  So letting them starve is actually the loving thing to do."  I hope you find this argument as offensive as I do.  So what is the answer to question (5)?

Many would dismiss this question on the grounds of several 'exclusivist" New Testament texts: e.g. "All who sin apart from the Law will also perish from the Law, and all who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law (Romans 2:12)."  But Paul celebrates God as "the Savior of all humanity, ESPECIALLY of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)."  The word "especially" stops us dead in our tracks when we deny that He is ultimately the Savior of unbelievers as well.  How can unbelievers be saved apart from formal profession of faith in Christ?  Paul answers this question in his discussion of the fate of non-Christian Jews and Gentiles in Romans 2:7, 10: "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life...glory, honor and peace to everyone who does good--first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."  

But these people have failed to gain forgiveness by trusting in Christ's atoning death.  Paul would reply that in pre-Christian times God "overlooked" sins committed in ignorance (Acts 17:30)."  Surely God takes the same position with respect to modern people who are ignorant of the sinful nature of their actions.  Again Paul would agree: "Before the Law was given, sin was in the world, but SIN IS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THERE IS NO LAW (Romans 5:13)."  Note the present tense 'is not."  

But even on this basis many pagans cannot qualify because conscience can be equivalent to the revealed written Law of Scripture: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do BY NATURE the things required by the Law, they are a law for themselves...SINCE THEY SHOW THAT THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them (Romans 2:14-15)."  Only God knows how many pagans find their way to Heaven on this basis.  

But doesn't Jesus always insist during His public ministry that all godly non-Christians be properly taught His message and His ministry of redemption?  Actually, no!  In Mark 9:38-41, John informs Jesus that a non-Christian Jew is successfully performing exorcisms. John adds: "We told him to stop because he was not one of us."  Notice how Jesus handles the situation.  He says, "Bring the man here and we'll explain the Gospel to him and offer him some basic instruction in discipleship.  Then we'll send him on his way to continue his ministry."  Oh, many evangelicals wish Jesus had responded that way!  But no, notice how He really does respond: "Do not stop him.  No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."  In other words, if you don't actively oppose Jesus by your values and actions, he considers you to be on His side.  On the basis of Jesus' actions here, would you still insist that this exoricist was unsaved?  Apparently, this man's successful ministry demonstrates to Jesus' satisifaction that his spirituality is the functional equivalent of what God requires.  

And how can Jesus say that "the poor" are "divinely favored" because "theirs is the kingdom of God (Luke 6:20)?"  How can He say elsewhere that "the poor in spirit" will "inherit the kingdom of heaven," that "the pure in heart...will see God," and "that "the peacemakers" will "be called sons of God (Matthew 5:3, 8-9)?"  Why doesn't Jesus insist in this context that all these classes must first be "born again" (John 3:3)?

I think Christians need to preach the Gospel and send out missionaries to convert the masses.  But I also think we'd better let God decide which non-Christians are bound for Hell and which are not.  Perhaps, righteous unbelievers spend time in one of the two Heavens below Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).  Perhaps, those who have received very limited spiritual light are purified or (in Jesus' poetic image) "are beaten with few lashes" in Hell (Luke 12:47-49) before being reclaimed for Christ.  As my future posts will argue, the Bible teaches that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.

Don

[Note: Sorry to lay all this on you.  But to complete my initial focus, I wanted Craig to have a coherent picture of the rationality of the biblical Heavens.]

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF HEAVEN?

Finally, the biblical teaching on soul progression raises the question of Heaven's ultimate purpose.  We find a hint of Heaven's purpose in Romans 11:36: "For  from Him and through Him and back to Him are all things."  This cyclical vision of creation already hints that damnation need not be the final state of those in Hell who have not opted for the annihilation option.  [More on that in my treatment of questions (5)-(7).]  The most fascinating biblical expression of Heaven's purpose can be found in 2 Peter 1:4: "He [God] has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through Him YOU MAY PARTICIPATE IN THE DIVINE NATURE."  Here Peter expresses the Bible's most glorious prospect for humanity.  Heaven is not an end in itself; it is merely a vehicle to help us achieve a profound union with God, a union which expands God's horizons in ways we cannot fathom.  Our mission is to help an already perfect God enrich and upgrade His experienc e and essence in ways that please Him {Her/ It). 

Peter's claim expresses much more than the traditional doctrine that we are created in God's image.  It expresses an idea very similar to the claim of certain astral adepts that we are all part of God.  When skeptics take offense at Jesus' claim to be God's Son, He responds that in a profound sense all humans are gods (John 10:33-36; citing Psalm 82:6).  But the narcissistic ego must be gradually suppressed and humble submission to God's will is required.  That submission should include love, adoration, and worship.  Our full realization of union with God must (from our time-bound perspective) await the completion of our long postmortem journey. 

In His human manifestation, Jesus has "emptied" Himself of His divine prerogatives (Philippians 2:6), and so, even He can temporarily distinguish Himself from God (Mark 10:18).  The Bible assumes the preexistence of the soul, but not reincarnation (e.g. John 9:1-2; Jeremiah 1:5; Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20).  Unlike us, Christ has no human preexistent state; rather, He preexists as God or rather "the Word" {Greek: "Logos"), i. e. the rational self-expression of God as opposed to God in His unknowability.  After His resurrection, Christ is restored to His full divine nature and prerogatives (Philippians 2:9-11), but now His humanity becomes absorbed into His divinity.  His atoning death and resurrection make possible our ultimate participation in the divine nature as well.  In that state, we ultimately share  jurisdiction over the cosmos (1 Corinthians 6:2) and just may be included in the heavenly throng poetically addressed at creation:  "LET US make humanity in OUR image (Genesis 1:27)."

These truths are poetically expressed by "Jesus and the angels" during Howard Storm's NDE:

"The universe exists because it is the activity of God and the heavenly multitude.  It was explained to me that it is like a vast orchestra and God is the conductor.  Each individual is an instrument with unique qualities.  Each soul contributes in their unique way to the symphony of creation.  There is no past or future in the symphony, only present.  The universe and all that is in it is the music.  We are the songs sung by heaven.  Outside of the symphony of life there is no time, space, matter, or energy. . .OUR ULTIMATE DESTINY IS TO PARTICIPATE WITH GOD IN CREATION.  The instrument we play is our being perfectly connected to God by the bond of love.  We know our part in the symphony because we have understood who we are and contribute our experience, our whole being, our spirit into the process (57)."

Don

Craig