Conversation Board - Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.

Spitfire

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #15 - Jan 15^th, 2006 at 8:56pm

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Evolution does not imply that you or I as our individual Doc or Spitfire personalities were a fish or an ape. Indeed, the fact that there are more people around doesn't tell as where we come from.

There are trillions of insects, and more plankton and organisms than I can imagine. You may say we evolved from single cells to simple creatures to us. But how does it work? How does my heart know how to beat, I can change my immune response to new viruses, and activate and inactivate my coagulation system properly with a cut? All from evolution - you might say? Nothing from design or spirit? Who gives the commands? My subconsicous? What, exactly is that?

While biology is explainable (this protein phosphorylates that protein, etc.), the "why" or coordination of it all is left up to a shrug of the shoulders. It is so clear to me tha t consciousness, our very being coordinates these physical activities. Even as a doctor, I can not ascribe it all to random mutationor survival of the fittest mechanism.

So I see evolution as compatilble with the afterlife, and continuing spiritual evolution thereafter.

As for reincarnation, I'm not sure. I'm not sure how many of us are new souls, and who has recycled.

M

Evolution states all current life on earth is a by product of protien and other things colliding in a primordial pool.

Your cells learn and adapt from new experiences - thus leading to new defence's. Each cell learns and a collection of cells can pool there resources to stop something or produce a reaction.

Your brain i have no doubt can affect your body - but i believe it is just your conscious mind - telling your sub conscious to take a course of action which ends up producing a positive affect.

But still it's your collection of brain cells which allows you to produce the thoughts which produce the affects.

90% of books you read about say we are re-incarnated. We come here to learn, we have lived many times.

But, how can that be so - when our population increase's so dramatically. Did we come here to learn what it's like to be a caveman/half ape? why does'nt anyone who has past life regression remember being a caveman or back to the time of our half ape ancestorey?

Evolution may very well, lead to an afterlife were the consciousness departs the body, but for us to relive again as a human we would have to deprive someone else's life in the making and take over there body.

It leads me to think we are like a match once we burn out we cant turn back into the fuel source again - because we have become tangled in a vast space of changed energy.

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B-dawg

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #16 - Jan 15^th, 2006 at 9:00pm

Spitfire, I've read some material a while back
(don't ask where, I forget where I saw it but
I did read it) suggesting that our "collective
unconscious" holds the entire evolutionary
history of the species (i.e. a woman undergoing
hypnosis, suddenly took on the "point of view"
(subjective "I" point, that is) of a prehistoric
reptile, and she noted that she was attracted to
a reddish patch on the side of the male's head...)
What this *MIGHT* indicate, is that we've all
been "lower life forms" in earlier incarnations...
and that our "subjective/"I" points" are in the
multi-billion year process of "moving up the
evolutionary ladder."
Thusly, evolution and the "continuity of consciousness" (afterlife) would be inextricably
linked with one another..! No "Big Sugar-Daddy in the Sky" necessary.
Sorry if that confuses you, but its the best thing
that came to mind for me at the moment. (But
then, whatever "truth" might be, I imagine it
would be a bit hard to express in late-twentieth
century/early-twenty-first century English...
wouldn't you say so?)
BTW thanks for the article on Oliver. I HADN'T
heard that one before. (A chimp who walks
upright and sips whiskey while watching
T.V. - ? And digs HUMAN chicks? That oughta
send the fundies into a tizzy...)

B-man

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Spitfire

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #17 - Jan 15^th, 2006 at 9:30pm

Quote:

Spitfire, I've read some material a while back
(don't ask where, I forget where I saw it but
I did read it) suggesting that our "collective
unconscious" holds the entire evolutionary
history of the species (i.e. a woman undergoing
hypnosis, suddenly took on the "point of view"
(subjective "I" point, that is) of a prehistoric
reptile, and she noted that she was attracted to
a reddish patch on the side of the male's head...)
What this *MIGHT* indicate, is that we've all
been "lower life forms" in earlier incarnations...
and that our "subjective/"I" points" are in the
multi-billion year process of "moving up the
evolutionary ladder."
Thusly, evolution and the "continuity of consciousness" (afterlife) would be inextricably
linked with one another..! No "Big Sugar-Daddy in the Sky" necessary.
Sorry if that confuses you, but its the best thing
that came to mind for me at the moment. (But
then, whatever "truth" might be, I imagine it
would be a bit hard to express in late-twentieth
century/early-twenty-first century English...
wouldn't you say so?)

B-man

I hear you chum, and it does sound quite alot like buddists beliefs.

I can see us being lesser animals in the past, and that it is our knowledge which could have forced cells into forced mutation by expanding the knowledge to which the cells have access to.

If you give life - knowledge it is only natural for it to want to expand it, it's curiosity.

This can be bad and good. Depending on the basis in which the knowledge is used.

You never know...the dinosaurs may have been a failure of our attempt to give it knowledge beyond which it had reached a point to which it would prove useful.

But then again..morals etc dont matter to most other life forms - only us.

Either it is our knowlege from previous existances be that animal/cell or human which advance organic beings, and thus allowing us to gain further knowledge which can only be produced by physical reactions.

It would be concivable that our consciousness can only do so much to an organisim during 1 life span, thus almost any form of organic creature is possbile.

Maybe every creature in the world was our own experiments to find a set of cells to which we could manipulate to a point were it could develope into a society which could move beyond the boundaries of it's programming? Thus giving us more knowledge?

But then again...who would want to be a locust when you could be a human?...maybe we draw a lottery, and as the country ( human population) increase's more of us win the lottery because theres more chances of us getting the 6 numbers (aka human body).

Ok my brains dead. See ya tommorow.

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RyanParis

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #18 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 3:01am

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hi spitfire i dont believe all that evolution stuff i dont believe for one minute that we evolved from apes i believe god made everyliving thing as he made us

Hi deanna. Regardless of what anyone says, God probably created evolution and Nature's laws. When you jump up, gravity brings you down to earth. When your hair grows longer, it evolved. I also believe we are all from the spirit world (or astral world), but are also incarnated on the physical plane right now... subject to Nature's laws. For instace Deanna, if you look at your house cats and realize that there are bigger cats (lions, tigers, leopards, ect) than you know their physical bodies are related by Nature's laws. That's why people believe humans are related to apes... as they are the closest animals that look like humans.

I believe anything that can dream has a spirit or astral body really, so that would include all humans and mammals. However, it wouldn't make sense why insects and plants wouldn't have spirits, either. As the Bible says "spirit created all life"... so that must mean every living thing has a spirit.

Just because evolution might be real, doesn't mean God isn't real. Such idiotic claims are only made by rumors and hearsay, everything will eventually lead back to God creating the universe in the first place. I believe both Nature and the spirit world is real.

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RyanParis

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #19 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 3:06am

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90% of books you read about say we are re-incarnated. We come here to learn, we have lived many times.

But, how can that be so - when our population increase's so dramatically. Did we come here to learn what it's like to be a caveman/half ape? why does'nt anyone who has past life regression remember being a caveman or back to the time of our half ape ancestorey?

Perhapes spirits from the spirit world come to earth to learn lessons, or to advance themselves spiritually. By the way, there are random kids and people who recall prebirth and past life experiences. Most past lives are probably forgotten in the same way we forget dreams quickly after waking up in the physical world.

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Spitfire

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #20 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 6:58am

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Hi deanna. Regardless of what anyone says, God probably created evolution and Nature's laws. When you jump up, gravity brings you down to earth. When your hair grows longer, it evolved. I also believe we are all from the spirit world (or astral world), but are also incarnated on the physical plane right now... subject to Nature's laws. For instace Deanna, if you look at your house cats and realize that there are bigger cats (lions, tigers, leopards, ect) than you know their physical bodies are related by Nature's laws. That's why people believe humans are related to apes... as they are the closest animals that look like humans.

I believe anything that can dream has a spirit or astral body really, so that would include all humans and mammals. However, it wouldn't make sense why insects and plants wouldn't have spirits, either. As the Bible says "spirit created all life"... so that must mean every living thing has a spirit.

Just because evolution might be real, doesn't mean God isn't real. Such idiotic claims are only made by rumors and hearsay, everything will eventually lead back to God creating the universe in the first place. I believe both Nature and the spirit world is real.

How can you say god created evolution, when it clearly states in the bible he create adam and eve fresh off the bat?.

If you believe in the bible you must believe in it 100% or not at all, you can't pick and choose the sections which suit you.

I dont read moby dick, and pretend captain ahab had 2 legs, just because it makes a better story line for me to follow.

It's not Just about looks, It's DNA. 98% of our genetic structure we share with apes, we have similar behaviour to apes, they have crossed humans with apes, to create humanzies!(read my post to jambo).

As i have said, i dont see anywhere in the bible....god created the human by mutating the local monkey....

The christian god does'nt exist.... He/it does'nt control gravity or the laws of nature. You will not go to hell for stealing a loaf of bred, you will not go directly to jail, and will not pass go to collect your 200 bucks.

Your core statements, are based on fairy tales - you need proof, and good solid evidence. Otherwise your just another smuck in a tux.

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mattb1000

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #21 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 7:28am

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How can you say god created evolution, when it clearly states in the bible he create adam and eve fresh off the bat?.

If you believe in the bible you must believe in it 100% or not at all, you can't pick and choose the sections which suit you.

I dont read moby dick, and pretend captain ahab had 2 legs, just because it makes a better story line for me to follow.

It's not Just about looks, It's DNA. 98% of our genetic structure we share with apes, we have similar behaviour to apes, they have crossed humans with apes, to create humanzies!(read my post to jambo).

As i have said, i dont see anywhere in the bible....god created the human by mutating the local monkey....

The christian god does'nt exist.... He/it does'nt control gravity or the laws of nature. You will not go to hell for stealing a loaf of bred, you will not go directly to jail, and will not pass go to collect your 200 bucks.

Firstly your article at the end says this :-

"These reports were refuted in 1997, however, when genetic testing revealed that he had 48 chromosomes, just like any other chimp. This eliminates the human-chimp hybrid theory, but does not rule out the possibility that Oliver might be a mixture of common and pygmy chimps or part of a new, unknown species."

And the pictures to me look like a trained chimp with a shaved head. So you have created this race of Humanzies from one article. Great work there.

Secondly, why must someone accept the bible as 100% true to believe in it? I find a lot of the literal content of it highly doubtful yet the spiritual themes it contains mimic a lot of religious and spiritual believes throughtout the world. In fact it makes sense for a book like that to contain alot of exagerated content(Humanzie article anyone?) as it is a 4000 year old text version of the game chinese whispers. But to understand our spiritual history it has great value.

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DocM

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #22 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 7:45am

"the christian god does not exist"

Spitfire, I am not christian, yet I think in your searches, you are looking for evidence. Why make a conclusion when some of your afterlife/spiritual searches have just begun?

I have found, the more grounded you are in your belief systems, especially in the physical plane, the less open you are to spiritual proof.

Don could show you that classical christianity is not as many think it to be. I believe this is true of Judaism as well. God was said to create us in his own image. If we each are a small part of God, inside us, exploring, understanding, then no you will not see the man with the long flowing white beard. The concept of the "all that is," is deeper than that. The concept of you being part of a divinity or seeking it within yourself is deeper than that.

You may disprove the child like idea of God as a man on a throne - but christian and Jewish concepts of a much bigger tougher to define divinity are more the rule than the exception.

Best to ya,

Matthew

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Spitfire

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #23 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 7:50am

Quote:

Firstly your article at the end says this :-

"These reports were refuted in 1997, however, when genetic testing revealed that he had 48 chromosomes, just like any other chimp. This eliminates the human-chimp hybrid theory, but does not rule out the possibility that Oliver might be a mixture of common and pygmy chimps or part of a new, unknown species."

And the pictures to me look like a trained chimp with a shaved head. So you have created this race of Humanzies from one article. Great work there.

Secondly, why must someone accept the bible as 100% true to believe in it? I find a lot of the literal content of it highly doubtful yet the spiritual themes it contains mimic a lot of religious and spiritual believes throughtout the world. In fact it makes sense for a book like that to contain alot of exagerated content(Humanzie article anyone?) as it is a 4000 year old text version of the game chinese whispers. But to understand our spiritual history it has great value.

That one article was purely to give jambo some reading, if you bothered to read my post i said - theres some humans incredably like us, not that he was a humanzie, the reason i brought humanzies up, is becuase it was on a documentary and an artical i vied from a very reliable bbc source, which added further proof humans did come from apes, otherwise such a merger would have not been possible.

You made your decision based on 1 picture, good job. Ive seen him in action, and he's like no chimp you have ever seen. Maybe you should go find more infomation about it, before you make your conclusions, unless you are 100% programmed by christianity? in which case, not much point trying to reason with you.

You either believe the bible 100% or not at all, you cant just pick out the parts you like, because you have no idea of whats true and whats false.

A few things you should know about the bible also,
- it approves slavery.
- it approves murder under gods rules
- jesus lied about praying
- Storys in the bible condone rape.
-The bible condones human and animal sacrifice.

All very spiritual stuff.

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Spitfire

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #24 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 8:08am

Quote:

"the christian god does not exist"

Spitfire, I am not christian, yet I think in your searches, you are looking for evidence. Why make a conclusion when some of your afterlife/spiritual searches have just begun?

I have found, the more grounded you are in your belief systems, especially in the physical plane, the less open you are to spiritual proof.

Don could show you that classical christianity is not as many think it to be. I believe this is true of Judaism as well. God was said to create us in his own image. If we each are a small part of God, inside us, exploring, understanding, then no you will not see the man with the long flowing white beard. The concept of the "all that is," is deeper than that. The concept of you being part of a divinity or seeking it within yourself is deeper than that.

You may disprove the child like idea of God as a man on a throne - but christian and Jewish concepts of a much bigger tougher to define divinity are more the rule than the exception.

Best to ya,

Matthew

Ello matt,

I specifically said, "christian" god, any other god is still on the cards for me.

I dont get how people read the bible and change it to there own words? im not talking about just a little bit of interpretation, but full blow versions of there own.

Without the bible, god as it is generally thought - aka an omnipotent being who sees all/knows all /all loving. Would not even exist.

Therefore people who believe in such a god, do so because on that book. If you believe that part, then you must follow the rest because god says you must, otherwise you are in conflict.

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mattb1000

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #25 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 8:28am

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That one article was purely to give jambo some reading, if you bothered to read my post i said - theres some humans incredably like us, not that he was a humanzie, the reason i brought humanzies up, is becuase it was on a documentary and an artical i vied from a very reliable bbc source, which added further proof humans did come from apes, otherwise such a merger would have not been possible.

You made your decision based on 1 picture, good job. Ive seen him in action, and he's like no chimp you have ever seen. Maybe you should go find more infomation about it, before you make your conclusions, unless you are 100% programmed by christianity? in which case, not much point trying to reason with you.

You either believe the bible 100% or not at all, you cant just pick out the parts you like, because you have no idea of whats true and whats false.

A few things you should know about the bible also,
- it approves slavery.
- it approves murder under gods rules
- jesus lied about praying
- Storys in the bible condone rape.
-The bible condones human and animal sacrifice.

All very spiritual stuff.

The main point I was making is that the article stats that he was a chimp so in fact I was right in saying the pictures look like a chimp. Your right I havent seen all the articles, documentries etc but am making comments on what ive seen so far. I havent made any conclusions so not sure what you mean.

The point is im not denying evolution but there are many grey areas in it.

I am a loosely christian in that i believe in the christian God but dont really believe much of the literal stuff of the bible. Saying that i have to believe 100% of the bible does not make it true. It is a book written by humans , why should i believe all of it?

It is a historical document though, and it contains spiritual meaning as it is written by people who believed in spirituality and God. Considering it as an ancient but self conflicting spiritual text would you not say it is worth something?

Totally disregarding it 100% does not really make any sense to me. Believing it 100% does not really make any sense to me.

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Spitfire

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #26 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 9:26am

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The main point I was making is that the article stats that he was a chimp so in fact I was right in saying the pictures look like a chimp. Your right I havent seen all the articles, documentries etc but am making comments on what ive seen so far. I havent made any conclusions so not sure what you mean.

The point is im not denying evolution but there are many grey areas in it.

I am a loosely christian in that i believe in the christian God but dont really believe much of the literal stuff of the bible. Saying that i have to believe 100% of the bible does not make it true. It is a book written by humans , why should i believe all of it?

It is a historical document though, and it contains spiritual meaning as it is written by people who believed in spirituality and God. Considering it as an ancient but self conflicting spiritual text would you not say it is worth something?

Totally disregarding it 100% does not really make any sense to me. Believing it 100% does not really make any sense to me.

Matt said:

"And the pictures to me look like a trained chimp with a shaved head. So you have created this race of Humanzies from one article. Great work there."

Thats what i call a conclusion. You deducted from my post that, i based my beliefs that we evolved from apes purely on 1 artical. And then proceed to try and mock me for it.

I am a loosely christian in that i believe in the christian God but dont really believe much of the literal stuff of the bible.

Yet without the bible, you would know nothing of a christian god? so you take the peices which suit you, and disreguard the peices which you dont like, yet god did not say to people to follow the segments which they like. It's like saying i'll follow 3 of the 10 commandments - i dont like the rest.

It is a historical document though, and it contains spiritual meaning as it is written by people who believed in spirituality and God. Considering it as an ancient but self conflicting spiritual text would you not say it is worth something?

It contains words, which contradict each other. It was written by man, the experience's in it cannot be reproduced.

It had a purpose to keep control of the mass's. This was often abused. In the modern world, we should look at ourselfs and find our beliefs, not try to bend ourselfs to fit into an out dated self destructing set of rules defined by a book written 2000 years ago.

But it once had a purpose, and it gave people hope. I cannot deny that.

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mattb1000

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #27 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 10:00am

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Matt said:

Thats what i call a conclusion. You deducted from my post that, i based my beliefs that we evolved from apes purely on 1 artical. And then proceed to try and mock me for it.

I made a conclusion on your believes as that was the only article you produced. That was wrong.

I did not make a conclusion on monkey-man hybrids as I dont know enough about it

Yet without the bible, you would know nothing of a christian god? so you take the peices which suit you, and disreguard the peices which you dont like, yet god did not say to people to follow the segments which they like. It's like saying i'll follow 3 of the 10 commandments - i dont like the rest.

So the article on the chimp becomes obsolete as well using your logic. The article states that scientists prooved he was only a chimp and yet you seem to have thought the entire article's text contained some truth even though parts of it do not give the same conclusion. Is this not the same as looking at the bible?
I believe in a god, the christian god is close to what I believe in. Allah is also close to what i believe in. I am not restricted to comply to the bibles teachings as I do not believe all of the bibles teachings.

It contains words, which contradict each other. It was written by man, the experience's in it cannot be reproduced.

The entire thing does not contradict itself. Spiritualy it does not totally contradict itself.

It had a purpose to keep control of the mass's. This was often abused. In the modern world, we should look at ourselfs and find our beliefs, not try to bend ourselfs to fit into an out dated self destructing set of rules defined by a book written 2000 years ago.

But it once had a purpose, and it gave people hope. I cannot deny that.

Sounds alot like the controlling powers of the skeptics modern science. It seems you have already made an opinion on it. I have not. I dont think its black or white. I believe it is grey but contains light.

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Spitfire

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #28 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 10:43am

I made a conclusion on your believes as that was the only article you produced. That was wrong.

I did not make a conclusion on monkey-man hybrids as I dont know enough about it

You mis-read what i put, just like if you re-read the bible, you'll see it promotes things which are considered evil in the modern day. Such as Slavery/Rape/Murder to name a few.

So the article on the chimp becomes obsolete as well using your logic. The article states that scientists prooved he was only a chimp and yet you seem to have thought the entire article's text contained some truth even though parts of it do not give the same conclusion. Is this not the same as looking at the bible?
I believe in a god, the christian god is close to what I believe in. Allah is also close to what i believe in. I am not restricted to comply to the bibles teachings as I do not believe all of the bibles teachings.

Nope, i take it all in. it's just 1 segment of proof that we evolved from apes. i accept all of it, if i did'nt i could ask the guy who did the tests anything i need to verify it. i did'nt say oliver was a humanzee, therefore i aint liable to any backlash from that artical. i merely pointed out how this ape with an extra chromazone, was alot like us, so much infact he was compared to have the inteligence of an 11 year old.

Can you verify god exists?..or are they mearly your idea's based upon someone else's idea's written down 2000 years ago?

The entire thing does not contradict itself. Spiritualy it does not totally contradict itself.

Read this website. http://www.evilbible.com

The bible is just 1 giant contradiction. the core values clash like hell.

Sounds alot like the controlling powers of the skeptics modern science. It seems you have already made an opinion on it. I have not. I dont think its black or white. I believe it is grey but contains light.

ive made my mind up and i will stand my ground, though i remain open to proof, and i will change my views accordingley. Until then, christian god = fairy tale( For me).

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DocM

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Re: Evolution, the greatest hurdle?.
Reply #29 - Jan 16^th, 2006 at 1:39pm

Spitfire,

You throw the baby out with the bathwater. This is not a geometrical proof: i.e. the bible has contradictions, therefore the christian God does not exist. The bible has many contributors, and is written by man, to teach and learn about God and religion. The old testament and new are very different. However, the christian notion of God does not not hinge on consistencies or flaws or contradictions, unless you are talking with a neanderthal bible thumper who believes every letter is factual and true without having to be interpreted and understood.

We are supposed to look at the gestalt. The overall picture of Jesus' teachings. Do unto others. Love thy neighbor, mercy, kindness, humbleness in the new testament. Somehow, these simple notions have touched billions of people and those who have made contact with spirits seem to suggest that everything is not literal by the bible, but these loving concepts are true (as true can be)...

So, personally, I don't think that inconsistencies in the written word of man either disproves or proves the existence of God.

Matthew

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