Don-

You've summed up well the reasons why a belief in reincarnation can be toxic.

Of course if all time is really One Time, then reincarnation by definition is not possible since it implies a sequence of births.

Re. the answer Storm got when he asked which religion is the best, it doesn't surprise me as to what he was told.  Actually, I would expect that even spiritually enlightened folks in the here and now would answer much the same way.  So that reply doesn't really convince me it was Jesus...although again, I'm certainly not ruling that possibility out.

The thing is, there are a lot of bogus Jesus' floating around these days.  ACIM started the ball rolling, but when you do some research, you find that there are other Jesus channellings which, like ACIM, sound authentic at least on a superficial basis especially to those who don't have the kind of scriptural background necessary to identify the obvious inconsistencies.

R
ps- hey maybe reincarnation really is possible!  After all, I've been on this website since almost Day One, and now I see I'm a Newbie.  Will wonders never cease.

pps- I keep hoping Bruce will complete the development of his afterlife communication device (ADC).  Once that is in general circulation, and we can dial up Aunt Gladys or Uncle Fred, then we should be able to get the answers we all want so much.

Don-

I appreciate your summarization.  Unfortunately I didn't bring Storm's book with me.  The quotes from Storm's Jesus are compelling.

In re-reading those quotes, I usually start from the premise that the quote might be from some other source as opposed to the claimed source (i.e. Jesus).  And then I try to figure out what agenda the source might have if in fact the source is an imposter. 

In this case however, I come up blank.  It genuinely seems authentic.  I can't come up with any agenda other than one intended to re-establish man's relationship with God.  Unlike ACIM's Jesus, we aren't continually told that regardless of what horrible acts a person might commit, he or she is totally guiltless.  In other words, there is never any accountability for anything we might do.

If that's true, why bother with the Life Review, which seems to be a common element in NDEs and is mentioned in various other afterlife literature.  Clearly the LR is a teaching tool which shows us how our words and deeds affected others by using a very powerful technique.....we literally feel the emotions, the hurt and pain we have caused in others via our thoughtlessness.  We also feel the joy and comfort we have brought to others.

That's just one example.  ACIM also trashes this physical world, and makes it clear it is nothing but illusion and misrepresentation and has no value whatsoever.  This also flies in the face of other material which says that earth is a school, and the reason earth can be so stressful and sometimes tragic, is because it's a tough school that teaches tough lessons.  So in other words, earth has a purpose.

Ok I don't want this thread to go off in an ACIM direction, that's for another thread if someone wants to do it.  It's just that Storm's Jesus makes a great deal of sense and, forgive the cliche, resonates.  Point #5 especially.  A new ager would say we create our own reality and in this sense I think that's about right.

Having said all of this, my question to you is this:  If Storm's Jesus is the real Jesus, why do you suppose He chose Storm to receive all of this sacred information?  Storm is no St. Peter, no church or religion will be established as a result.  And of course it's not about organized religion anyway. 

Storm's book hasn't really made that much of a splash except maybe in a small circle.  Wouldn't you suppose Jesus would have wanted his Words to be as widespread as possible?  I just don't see that happening.

Other than the quotes from Jesus, what other lessons do we learn from Storm's experience that would directly affect how we live our life?  Storm himself became a minister, quitting his other job to do so. 

To me, the most important lesson I learned was not from Storm but from ES.  Not really a lesson, just a reinforcement of something I've intuitively felt for a long time.  Namely, love is important.  Faith is important.  But these things have to be linked to activity.  Activity that is directed to those who need our help.  Activity that is done in the name of the love of God is considered to be absolutely essential by ES.  What did Storm's book have to say in this regard?

Did you learn any lesson from Storm's book?  Have you changed any behavior as a result?  Again, I wish I had his book and all of my typed notes, it would help me better in framing this question.

R

Hi everyone! Don, thanks for the invite over here since I've been away for a few months. So much to read and I know that I won't be able to hit every point. If I gloss over something that you want to focus on, please let me know and I'll do my best to reply.

To George - you might find these links written by Swedenborgians to be helpful in reflecting upon reincarnation.

How Good Do We Have to Be? by Robert McCloskey: http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/How%20Good.htm

Rebirth and Reincarnation by Charles Hall (edited by Lee Woofenden): http://www.leewoof.net/ministry/misc/rebirth_and_reincarnation.html

Reincarnation by John Odhner:  http://members.aol.com/johnodhner/reincarnation.html

Divine Reincarnation: http://www.swedenborgmovement.org/leaflets/reincarnation.html

Reincarnation?http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/rein.html

I totally agree with Roger that to believe in reincarnation is not so bad if it's doing a person good to believe in it. I also agree with Don that reincarnation can be a toxic philosophy; I've seen how it can attack a person in grief and the results can be horrendous both emotionally and spiritually.

As I understand it, the religions that reincarnation flourished (Hinduism and Buddhism) originally taught one eternal life. It wasn't until at least 600-1000 years after these 2 respective religions were founded that the belief in reincarnation surfaced.

Don has shared about the correspondence between the spiritual world and the natural world that ES wrote about. This correspondence exists with everything in our natural world. Mankind has largely forgotten the correspondence but ES wrote that God was revealing it once again. This correspondence affects us whether or not we are aware of it. For example, the number 12 which according to ES symbolized (corresponded to) all things of truth and good which can be developed in our lives. How do we know that is a true correspondence or not? By reflecting upon these things: 12 sons of Jacob, 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 disciples of Jesus, the 12 gates to the New Jerusalem as mentioned in Revelation, the 12 fruits of the Tree of Life as mentioned in Revelation 22 (many more examples). That this correspondence carries through into our secular lives without our awareness is evident by 12 months to a year; 12 hours to a day; 12 hours to a night; 12 signs of the Zodiac; 12 persons on a jury; 12 Step Recovery groups, etc.

Correspondences depend on the connotation of the passage or experience. As Don wrote, ES' insight was recognized by him to be not so enlightening as he first thought because a chicken is not so smart. Yet, even the lowly hen has good spiritual correspondence as evident by what Jesus said in Luke 13:34, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me."

There is the correspondence of the One God and with our one life. It is interesting to note that Hindiusm now teaches many gods and many earthly lives. In its inception, Hinduism focused on the One God and an individual's one earthly life.

Roger, you mentioned that in ES writings, you are reminded that what is important to actually live a life of charity and I so agree. That's the #1 important thing - without a doubt or question in my mind and it's absolutely what ES stressed. Still, ES wrote much about the afterlife and he wrote that it was because God wanted us to know about the other side. As ES mentioned, if we were to travel to another country, we'd spend some time researching the customs and language of that country; how much more true of the country of our eternal lives! There's the very real and practical benefit of knowing about the Other Side - it can be a profound influence on healing grief from losing a loved one to death.

ES wrote that the Golden Rule is found in every religion and by putting the Golden Rule into action into our lives, we thus will gain Heaven regardless of our religion or non-religion.

http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/GoldenRule.htm

Don, I think you mentioned that ES didn't speak to Jesus. ES had at least 2 visions of the Lord Jesus of which I know. These visions were immediately before ES abandoned his scientific work and because of these visions, ES believed he was called by God to experience the other side and to write books so that the world could be informed.

Immediately prior to the time of ES abandoning his scientific career, he was troubled and very much in spiritual torment as to where God was leading him. The two visions of Christ directed ES' path and are recalled by ES in his Dream Diary. I will copy part of one vision here (Dream Diary #50-54):

"... at ten o'clock, I went to bed and felt a little better. After half an hour, I heard some din under my head, and then I thought that the tempter left. Immediately a shiver came over me, starting from the head and spreading throughout the body, with some rumbling, coming in waves, and I realized that something holy had befallen me. Whereupon I went to sleep, and about twelve o'clock, or perhaps it was one or two in the morning, such a strong shivering seized me, from my head to my feet, as a thunder produced by several clouds colliding, shaking me beyond description and prostrating me. And when I was prostrated in this way, I was clearly awake and saw how I was overthrown. I wondered what this was supposed to mean, and I spoke as if awake but found that the words were put into my mouth. I said, 'Oh, thou almighty Jesus Christ, who of thy great mercy deigns to come to so great a sinner, make me worthy of this grace!' and I clasped my hands and prayed. Then a hand emerged, which pressed my hands firmly. In a little while, I continued my prayer, saying, "Thou hast promised to receive in grace all sinners; thou canst not otherwise than keep they word!" In the same moment, I was sitting in his bosom and beheld him face to face, a countenance of a holy mien. All was such that I cannot describe. He was smiling at me, and I was convinced that he looked like this when he was alive. He spoke to me and asked if I have a health certificate; and to this I replied, "Lord, thou knowest better than I." He said, "Well then, do!" -- that is, as I inwardly grasped this, "Do love me" or "Do as promised." God give me grace thereto! I found it beyond my powers and woke up shuddering."

ES asserted in many passages and in priviate correspondence that it was the Lord alone who taught him as he was in the spiritual realms accompanied by angels.

Speaking of Creation - ES did write that God's Creation was an "unfolding" process that continually occurs - a never ending creation. And he was the first individual to write that the Bible story of Genesis could not possibly be literal. He saw the correspondence of the Genesis story to that of our spiritual development. I will outline the spiritual correspondence of the Biblical story of Creation in a post later tonight.

As far as ES not knowing about dinosaurs, I wouldn't be surprised if he did know about them. I vaguely remember one passage where he mentioned that mankind had existed many thousands upon thousands of years - more than we could know and also that these ancient people did not walk upright on 2 feet as we do... interesting stuff to be written in 1757.

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

"There's the very real and practical benefit of knowing about the Other Side - it can be a profound influence on healing grief from losing a loved one to death. "

Hi Judy-

Yes, I think that the most essential message ES has for us is that love and faith are important, but they must be applied in our daily life by helping others.  If we do that, we are leading what ES calls "useful lives."

But regarding what you said about knowing what is on the other side.....one would think that since that level of knowing can bring so much comfort, it would be easier for the rest of us to have the kind of firsthand knowledge that ES had.  I would guess 99% of us lack the intensity of intellectual and emotional commitment ES brought to the task.  Clearly, ES didn't just stumble on this knowledge, he had to work hard at it, and it took place over many years.

I wish I could understand why that knowledge is so difficult for most of us to obtain when, as you say, it would bring so much comfort.  Any ideas on that?

R

SPIRITUAL CORRESPONDENCE OF THE CREATION STORY IN GENESIS

I've copied from Bible Study Notes by Swedenborg scholar Anita Dole (1889-1973):

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It is interesting to note that the first volume of the Arcana Colestia by Emanuel Swedenborg, which points out the impossibility of a literal interepretation of the early chapters of Genesis and gives their internal sense, appeared several years before the work of Jean Astruc (1684-1766), the father of modern skepticism. Thus before doubt was permitted to attack the Word openly, the truth which would meet and overcome the doubt was published.

The New Church [aka Swedenborgian Church] teaches that the early chapters of Genesis were copied by Moses from the Ancient Word, which existed before our Word and which was written entirely in correspondences; that is, the things of nature were used as symbols to express spiritual truths, just as the Lord taught His disciples through the various parables so familar to us all. The people of the Most Ancient Church, having open communication with the heavens, understood the true relation between the two worlds and saw everything in nature as a mere ultimation of something spiritual. So the earliest language, both spoken and written, was a beautiful symbol language, the expression of spiritual thought in natural forms. This language was preserved in the Ancient Word, and still is preserved in the Bible. As people turned from the Lord, however, and became absorbed in themselves and in their life in the world, they lost communication with the spiritual world and with it the understanding of the spiritual realities behind things in nature. In time they lost even the knoweldge that the early stories of Genesis had a spiritual meaning.

The six days of creation picture six stages in man’s development into a true human being, in the image and likeness of God, a spiritual being capable of knowing and worshiping God. Because everything in nature was made by the Lord, everything expresses something in Him. So we say that each thing in nature “corresponds” to something in the world of spirit, and the Bible is written in this language of correspondence.  Here are some correspondences to help you in seeing the spiritual meaning within this first chapter of Genesis:

Waters mean truths.

The firmament – or expanse as it is more accurately translated – pictures the plane of our thinking. The waters above the firmament are symbolic of truths about God and heavenly life; those below the firmament are truths about the world and earthly life.

Dry land means our conscious experience, and seas represent truths gathered together in the memory.

The vegetable kingdom stands for our thoughts, the fruit for our deeds. Seeds, spiritually speaking, are new germs of thought which are capable of producing fruit. We may think of the Lord’s words: “By their fruits you shall know them.” And we all remember the parable of the sower, which is found in Matthew 13:1-23. The Lord Himself explained this parable to His disciples, and told them that the seed represented the Word.

The sun is the symbol of love for the Lord, the moon faith in Him, and the stars knowledges of heavenly things. The day is a time when we see clearly, and the night one when everything seems dark, and we must just trust in what we have been taught about the Lord and the good life, as a sailor at night is guided by the stars.

Living creatures represent affections or desires–cold-blooded ones, like fish, affections for earthly knowledges, the birds affections for heavenly knowledges, and warm-blooded animals affections for doing useful things.

Basic Correspondences

light=truth
water=truth
dry land, earth or ground=our conscious experience, which forms our mind
the vegetable kingdom=our thinking
the animal kingdom=our affections
darkness=ignorance
the sun=love to the Lord, from whom all truth comes
the moon=faith in the Lord
the stars=knowledges of heavenly things
waters above the firmament=spiritual truth
waters under the firmament=natural truth
seas=truth gathered in the memory
fish=affections for natural knowledge
birds=affections for spiritual knowledge
animals=affections for useful thought and action

The story of creation provides a practical working outline for the study of correspondences because it contains the great generals. Heaven in the first verse of Genesis signifies the internal part of a person, and earth the external part of a person. the external part of a person does not mean just the body, but all the natural thoughts and feelings which are connected with our everyday life in the world. The internal person is the higher, internal region of the soul, of which we are unconscious much of the time, where are our thoughts and feelings about the Lord and spiritual things. These two are present in every person from the beginning, but the earth–the external person–is without form and void; that is, we have no understanding of the purpose or plan of our earthly life. And darkness is ‘upon the face of the deep’; that is, we are altogether ignorant even of the existence of an inner and higher nature. This condition exists not only when we are infants, but when we are grown men and women if we have not begun to regenerate; for when a man or woman does not believe that there is any higher life than the natural, not only is his internal person in darkness but everything the person knows about the world is empty of any real good and truth because it is not seen in its proper relation to spiritual life. Yet always, the ‘spirit of God’ moves upon the face of the waters; the Lord’s mercy is always seeking to reach us through the things which He has stored up–without our knowing it–in our internal person.

The first beginning of regeneration–the formation of a heavenly character is the coming of light. Throughout the Word darkness pictures a state of ignorance and light a state of knowledge. The Lord was born while shepherds watched their flocks by night; when He was crucified there was darkness over the world. And in the creation story each day–that is, each stage of development–proceeds from evening to morning, from darkness to light, from ignorance to knowledge. ‘And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.’ Of this Swedenborg says, ‘The first state is when man begins to know that the good and the truth are something higher. The very first thing necessary to regeneration is to recognize that there is something higher than our mere external life, something more important that what we can get for ourselves out of this world. Thus God, working in our minds, divides the light from the darkness.

Then follows the second day, in which we begin to organize the knowledges which are in our mind, dividing between those which concern merely worldly things and those which concern heavenly and Divine things. This is the beginning of our real awareness of our internal potential–the firmament–and the dividing of the waters above the firmament from those below the firmament. In the story water first appears as a symbol for truth. To the person who does not believe in God and a spiritual world the Bible is like any other book, and ideas about goodness and truth have no meaning other that which arises out of their effects in this world. But as soon as one recognizes the existence of God and of a higher life, goodness and truth are seen as spiritual realities.

The third day, or stage, brings more definite and permanent accomplishment. The waters under the firmament are gathered together into seas. Seas correspond to knowledges gathered together in the memory. Think, for example, of the place the Sea of Galilee holds in the Gospel story. Then the dry land appears; that is, a person forms a definite idea of what their external nature is and of what its use should be. And from this time a person begins to make their external perform its proper use. It receives seeds of truth from the Lord and produces external good works. Here we have our introduction to the wonderful symbolism of the vegetable kingdom, the basis for the understanding of the meaning of all the plants and trees in the Bible story. We are familiar with the parable of the Sower and with the Lord’s explanation of it: the Sower is the Lord, the seed truths form the Word, the ground the minds of people, and the fruit the good and useful things done by a person when the seed of truth has taken root in their heart and grow up in their life. The many different plants and trees represent different truths. Every plant and tree is a principle grown from a particular truth, and its fruit is the conduct which results from the application of that principle. And as every fruit has seeds of its own kind within itself, so right conduct in one individual suggest to other people the truth of the principle behind it, which they may adopt and develop into right conduct of their own. Notice that there is a progression in the appearance of vegetable life: first the grass–or more properly the ‘tender herb’–then the herb yielding seed and finally the tree yielding fruit. That is, we first develop minor truths whose results are perishable, and later more and more important and fruitful truths.

Now we are ready for another great step forward. The good we have done so far has been the result of the mere recognition of the existence of God and spiritual things. But when we have some experience in trying to live according to spiritual principles, we begin to feel the need for more definite knowledge of God and of His purposes. On the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars appear. The sun is the symbol of love to the Lord, the moon of faith in Him, and the stars of knowledges of heavenly things… If, instead of clinging to our natural tastes and desires, we seek to make our characters conform to the divine standard, then we are acting from love to the Lord and not form love of self. Then the sun appears in our heavens. But we all know that even after we have seen this sun, there are times when our natural desires rise up and darken our sky. Then we must continue to obey the commandments because we know that they are the Lord’s way. This is faith, which like the moon shines by reflected light and shows us the way through our temporary darkness until the sun rises again–until the temptation is past. And we are helped at such times also by all that we have learned from the Word about the Lord and His ways–the stars guide us. This change form self-guidance to the Lord’s guidance is a distinct step in our progress and is necessary to our doing any real good; for as Swedenborg tells us many times and as the Lord Himself tells us in Matthew 19:17, there is no genuine good except from the Lord’s unselfish love in the heart. This is why the creation of the vegetable kingdom and that of the animal kingdom, for animals are warm-blooded, living things and represent genuine good affections.

At the beginning of his explanation of Genesis 1:20, Swedenborg says: ‘After the great luminaries have been kindled and placed in the internal person, and the external receives light from them, then the person first begins to live. Heretofore the person can scarecely be said to have lived, in as much as the good which he did he supposed that he did of himself, and the truth which he spoke that he spoke of himself; and since the person of himself is dead, and there is in him nothing but is evil and false, therefore whatsoever he produces from himself is not alive.’ But as soon as one recognizes that all goodness comes from the Lord and not from himself, everything in him begins to live. The knowledges of external things which the person has stored in his memory–the seas–come to life, as it were, because they become related to the Lord and His service; these are the ‘moving creatures that has life’ which the waters brought forth. And the higher things of a person’s reason are the birds which fly in the air. The great whales are the general principles of external knowledge. That is, fishes and birds picture things of the mind made alive by being related to the Lord as the source of all wisdom.

On the sixth day the earth brings forth living creatures. These are no longer things of the mind alone, but things of the will–good affections. Before we reach this stage we may know what is right and not do it, or we may even do it against our real desire. But when we love to do it, then the earth has brought forth the good animals. Fish and birds always picture things of the mind, lower and higher, and animals always picture things of the heart or will. When these good affections are brought forth, when a person has come to do the Lord’s will, then he has become truly a person created in the image and likeness of God both as to his intellect and as to his will.

The seventh day–the day or rest–pictures the happy state of one who is fully established in heavenly character. We have a taste of this state whenever we have fully conquered a particular temptation so that we no longer want to do the wrong thing against which we have been struggling, when the Lord’s love is our hearts instead of the selfish desire which has troubled us. As long as we are in this world new temptations will soon come upon us. But when we reach our heavenly home, the time of struggle and trial will be past and we shall always enjoy the happy state of willing service. For rest is not inactivity: it is “rest in the Lord’ living consciously from Him so that nothing which is given us to do can worry or tire us. For this reason the seventh day was blessed and sanctified, and the number seven throughout the Word represents what is holy.

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With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Hi Don,

I apologize for my faulty paraphrasing of your posts! I want to thank you for your wonderful posts on ES; and also your search for truth. I'm happy to have sent you the books; it's part of what I consider to be my lay ministry.

Knowing the profound impact ES' writings have had on my life, in healing my grief, and also helping me to understand and accept the reality of my ADCs, I want to share with all who are so inclined to listen.

I'm glad that the books have been of help to you as well. I'll go over to your other thread tomorrow night.

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Hi Roger,

Quote:


I agree with you; they both can't be correct.

Quote:


I think depression is a normal response when a person's spirit is confused and perplexed. Go with what brings peace to your heart and ends the confusion in your mind.

I Corinthians 14:33: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace."

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy