Vicky: "Is it your point to point out that ES had a greater ability than most?" 

ES's unique intellectual brilliance and the superiority of his paranormal abilities should be obvious to anyone who wades through this thread and reads the testimonies. Yet even ES was deceived at times in serious ways.  That tells me that I too can achieve spiritual breakthroughs and then wrongly conclude that my overview need no longer be questioned.  So this basic question must permanently lodge in my psyche: "If my overview is flawed in important ways, how can I ever find that out?"

Vicky: "Is it your point to discredit anyone else who isn't as great, in your view, as ES was?"

No, but his far superior skills coincide with his portrait of the afterlife and its principles that often clashes with that of modern New Age adepts with inferior skills.  An honest seeker must at least attempt to reconcile those contradictions into a logically coherent worldview.  That task can only be pursued by doing something unthinkable within the groupthink of the New Age Ghetto, namely taking intellectual trips outside the Ghetto to discover and examine contrary evidence that challenges the subject certainty of one's own experiences and intuitions.   

For example, ES eventually learns that his convinving past life memories are in fact memories flowing in through unconscious soul merges with discarnate spirits.  ES is even able to persuade  discarnate spirits their their past life memories are really the memories of merging spirits. 

Science progresses through the constant challenge of standard positions in a quest to find a superior heuristic model that better explains more relevant data.  Authentic faith requires one to constantly ask this question: "If I am fundamentally wrong about basic truths, how would I ever find that out?"  I have documented here a retrieval I performed and ADCs I've experienced that were absolute convincing during the experiences, but could logically be dismissed as dubious expressions of wishful thinking upon later ruthlessly honest reflection. 

Vicky:..."what would be your interest in astral projection and afterlife exploration?  If you had no one to look up to that impresses you like ES, would you yourself want to learn to explore and have your own experiences?"

I have used self-hypnosis technique to induce an OBE that was totally convincing during the experience, but which I later determined was a manifestation of bogus auto-suggestion.  When I later taught myself to have vivid lucid dreams, I realized that OBEs and other forms of astral travel are not logically distinguishable from the lucid dream state.  Still, I bought TMI's Gateway CDs and have actively meditated with these without any convincing astral travel.  Still, I have often been tempted to take the Gateway course at TMI, but have been discouraged from doing so by the unconvincing reports on sites like this and the intellectual dishonesty I perceive on such sites.    

Vicky: "As for verification, I don't see it as the end-all of an experience." 

The result of my research and reflection (described above) is that consistent and impressive verifications are the only way of achieving any honest insights into the validity of astral projection and related abilities.

Vicky: "If I had been of the frame of mind to balk at Dad's visits for their lack of "bonafide verification", oh what I would have missed out on!!  The love experienced of these visits is MY verification that they are real.  So you see why I couldn't care less if my experiences impress you or anyone else?" 

I have posted videos featuring Johanna Michaelson, author of "The Beautiful Side of Evil."  She recounts her prior mediumistic skills in which she participates in miraculous shamanistic healings and experienced profound PUL in doing so.  Only later, when she imagined she could establish a relationship with the conventional Jesus did her loving spirit guides shower hate on her and even try to kill her.  She is now a radiant Christian.  So no, imagined astral experiences of PUL are not equivalent to the discovery of spiritual truth. 

Vicky: "I admit, Don, I don't read much of your posts, so maybe there are posts you share which talk about your ability to perceive nonphysically, about your experiences of PUL and ability to expand your awareness and perception beyond its normal limits??"
 
You admit what is true of most New Age posters here and that's one reason why I speak of their careful isolation within a groupthink Ghetto.  An honest spiritual quest should include this objective: to be capable of articulating the opposition's perspective more cogently than they can articulate it themselves--and that requires the emotionally difficult task of reading and listening to experiences and perspectives that one finds very threatening.  Here is one way Jesus' approach can be summarized: He comforts the afflicted and afflicts the comfortable. 

Vicky, if you had regularly read my posts overs the years, you would realize that I have experienced far more paranormal experiences and encountered more in my ministry than any New Agers posting on this site--at least judging by their postings.  Visitors to this forum have been converted through these postings and shared this with me in PMs.  But if ES can have serious flaws in his overview, I certainly can as well.  I can only hope to discover these flaws by a vigilant critical perspective that is ever open to self-doubt. 

Quote:


   LOL that might have something to do with the fact that they both take place within the etheric level/body of the human energy system. 

     Hey Don, I'll take your Swedenborg, and raise you one Edgar Cayce anytime. 

   Any interest in comparing the amount of verification in both works?  And I don't mean like "accounts of stories", but hard verification.   

  Alas, I don't think you would like the results since Cayce's guidance supported concepts that you just can't seem to accept, like reincarnation and karma. 

  I'll need to get my copy of Kirkpatrick's biography of him back from my friend though, since Sidney did a lot of the foot work for me in investigating Cayce's life and work. 
     And Sidney Kirkpatrick ain't no slouch in researching human subjects, as his primary focus of his writing and film career has focused on biographies, documentaries, and investigative research. 

"Sidney D. Kirkpatrick (born 1955) is an award-winning documentary filmmaker and a bestselling historical author. He grew up in Stony Brook, Long Island and attended Kent School, Connecticut, Hampshire College, Massachusetts and New York University.

His documentaries include:

My Father the President (1982), in which Ethel Derby, second daughter of President Roosevelt, describes her childhood.
His books include:

A Cast of Killers (pub. 1986), ISBN 978-5-551-54135-6 a non-fiction account of Hollywood director King Vidor's private attempt to solve the William Desmond Taylor murder case.

Turning the Tide: One Man Against the Medellin Cartel ISBN 978-0-451-40317-9 (with Peter Abrahams), (pub. 1991) a novelized account of a conflict which took place in the Bahamas between drug baron Carlos Lehder and an American professor Richard Novak's investigating hammerhead sharks there.

Lords of Sipan (pub. 1992), ISBN 978-0-688-10396-5, a non-fiction account of the discovery, looting, and eventual recovery by Dr. Walter Alva of artifacts from the tombs in Sipan, Peru.

Edgar Cayce: An American Prophet (pub. 2000) ISBN 978-1-57322-896-1, a biography of Edgar Cayce, the psychic.

The Revenge of Thomas Eakins (pub. 2006), ISBN 978-0-300-10855-2 a biography of Thomas Eakins, the artist.

Hitler's Holy Relics: A True Story of Nazi Plunder and the Race to Recover the Crown Jewels of the Holy Roman Empire (pub. 2010), ISBN 978-1-4165-9062-0, a true account of art historian-turned-Army sleuth Walter Horn's World War II investigation of Nazi plunder and Germanic mysticism.
 
Events:
The Smithsonian, National Archives, HBO, History Channel, Travel Channel, and A&E Television networks have all featured his work. Biographical profiles of Kirkpatrick have appeared in the New York Times, Newsweek, Time, the New Yorker, and Playboy."

   Excerpted from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_D._Kirkpatrick

  It's actually kind of amazing that someone with such a blooming and otherwise "mainstream" career, and who described themselves previously as a atheistic materialist would not only take on such as "woo woo" subject as a psychic, but also come to be a firm believer in them, and very active in the A.R.E.
   In his own words about why he did so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RoMjNQ-CHg
https://youtu.be/egtqiyLKdj8

   So what do you say, up for a little challenge?  Obviously on another thread somewhere.  I don't want to steal Swedenborg's glory here.

What Ghetto does the author of the below article belong to?

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/swedenborg.htm

TheDonald wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 10:14pm:


I'm curious to know the details about the evil influences he witnessed. I recently came across the theory that hypnotism is actually a kind of demonic influence or possession and thought it was interesting.

TheDonald wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 10:14pm:


    Oh my goodness, one of my brothers has the name of Mike!  It must be true and a sign for me as well! 
    Well the truth is, not everything is a sign, and sometimes we see things we want to see, and our focus and belief leads us. In any case, neither reincarnation, nor especially hypnosis are big focuses for me.  I use to focus more on reincarnation, but I've come to focus most on the present as well as trying to spiritually grow more.  I do this primarily through a combo of prayer/meditation, and positive service to others. 
     Hypnosis played a role in Cayce's life, but only an initial one--it allowed him to realize what he could do. The only "hypnosis" involved in his work of giving readings was after he prayed and meditated and went into a very deeply relaxed state, he would have a trusted person (most often his spouse or son), give him a brief initial suggestion.  Usually it was very basic, like describe what kind of health conditions are going on, or what the spiritual history of the entity seeking a reading is. 
       Other than that, no "hypnosis".  He didn't have a hypnotist follow him around and put him in trances or have elaborate regressions or suggestions given to him.
       In any case, Yeshua said to judge and discriminate a source or individual by their consistent fruits. It's very clear that Edgar Cayce was a true Christian in that he sacrifieced much to help and serve others.  It's very clear that he helped hundreds and hundreds of people in very deep, clear, unmistakable ways (especially medically).  People constantly tested him, from the great medium debunker Houdini, a number of doctors, to the head of Harvard Psych. department.   
        There are a number of doctor and/or patient signed affadavits on record. Some of these involve cases where no previous medical help sought, helped these people at all. Cayce, was often a "last resort" for most people.  People so desperate that they went to a psychic, because they weren't getting helped adequately by anyone else. 

      Shame on you to so cavalierly impugn a fellow Christian who so clearly was trying his best to help others, simply because of his information disagrees with yours in some ways.  I fully recognize Emanuel Swedenborg as a great, ethical, brilliant, and spiritually attuned person who tried to positively serve others and society. I have nothing against him though I don't agree with everything he said.  For example, I happen to believe the flood was a very physical event, as well as symbolic.
       A person (E.C.) doesn't become the literally most written about/referenced modern human subject in the Library of Congress by being a fraud or non noteworthy.

      Again, we can do a side by side comparison of the amount and kind of verification that Emanuel and Edgar that produced.  Emanuel certainly was impressive, but I'd wager that Edgar is noticeably more so.  This is a person who gave psychic readings to individuals almost everyday for some near 40 years, and the majority of those readings were meticulously recorded, copied, cross indexed, and most of the original copies are available to research. 
      Some 14, 300 individual Readings totaling some 70, 000 pages. Most readings extremely specific to the individual. Much of it medically based, from a man who consciously knew nothing about physiology, anatomy, and medicine at a time when medical knowledge was more closely guarded and hard to obtain for the layperson, because medical doctors of the time were so worried about quackery and quacks cavalierly trying to practice what they considered real medicine.
      If Cayce was a fraud, even if he was a brilliant genius of a fraud, chances are, people would start to catch on, and rather than getting more and more popular (as he did), his reputation would have waned more and more. The man worked himself to death, because he was receiving so many requests for readings that he couldn't keep up and did more readings than he was told would be good for his health.  He literally worked himself to death during the war time, because he felt such a need to help others.

p.s., you'll note that while Albert talks about Disks in a general sense, in actuality, he talks very little about reincarnation in any specific ways. Even less about hypnosis. In fact, the few times I've seen him talk about hypnosis, it's somewhat against or skeptical of it.

TheDonald wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 4:43pm:



Don,

I disagree with much of what you've replied to me with.

I haven't shared much of my own array of paranormal experience here, so you have no idea how much I've experienced.  I doubt that you have experienced as much as I have, and I say that because I think you are including the paranormal accounts of other people, whereas when I speak of my own experiences they are indeed just mine alone...not what other people have told me about theirs.   

My point is that there's no reason for you to continually group everyone together and call us New Age Ghetto and Grouplike Think.  At the very least it's condescending as well as arrogant because like I stated before, nobody needs to be compared to anybody.  There's no reason for it. 

The next thing I disagree with you about is when you said "consistent and impressive verifications are the only way of achieving any honest insights into the validity of astral projection and related abilities"....I ask you, what does that even mean?  Your verbose way of talking really isn't saying anything meaningful in my opinion.  The bottom line is, one's own direct experience which leads to one's own personal spiritual growth, ability, knowledge, and belief have nothing to do with what convinces YOU as being impressive, verifiable, honest, insightful, and valid.  If you only seek to find verification in other people's experiences you may find yourself impressed or you may not, but it still won't get you anywhere.  I doubt it will add much to your own spiritual growth.

Let's change the terminology into something we all can easily relate to.  What if I said, "Hey Don, I'm totally and completely in love with a man and because of this experience I've grown spiritually and will never be the same."  We can all agree that that's a subjective statement right?  Let's pretend that you said, "Really Vicky?  Can you prove it?  Where's the impressive verification to achieve your honest insights into the validity of your ability to believe that you are completely in love with that man?  You haven't done your due diligence in researching all the claims of all the other people who have met this man that aren't in love with him.  They say they don't feel the same way.  They may have at first thought they loved him but now they know they were being deceived, which leads me to believe you're being deceived too.  You need to reconcile their view outside of your own to examine the contrary evidence before you can make such a claim."

Ok that was a silly example, but this is what reading you sounds like to me.  What you're saying is that despite what I may have experienced, think, feel, and believe, as long as I can't make an impressive claim to verify and validate to you what I've experienced, then it's not going to convince you of anything.  What you're saying is so convoluted and verbose and completely misses my point.  Again my point is, who cares?  When you continually call everyone New Age Ghetto it's very condescending, but more than that you miss the point, and the point is that you should worry about you.  We are each in charge of our own spiritual growth.  I think that you think there is only one right way to be, only one right truth.  But we are all doing our own thing and there is more than one right way to get to the truth.

Which brings me to the next thing that I disagree with you about....and that is when you said:  "So no, imagined astral experiences of PUL are not equivalent to the discovery of spiritual truth."   What does this sentence mean, "imagined astral experiences of PUL?"  What does spiritual truth mean?  When I read you, Don, I get the distinct impression that you come from a belief system that says there is one universal Truth.  Is that correct?  Is that how you feel and believe?  Sounds like the stuff of BSTs to me.   

I have never claimed that I have all the answers or that I know everything.  But I at least can say for certain that I know what I know and believe because of my own direct personal experience and growth.  It has taken me a lot of patience, practice, and openness to get where I am.  But one thing that never serves me well is self doubt or comparing myself to others. 

Opening your heart through PUL is by far the best advice I've ever learned.  It propels your experience, perception, and belief far further than verification-seeking will get you.

I rarely try to get involved in discussion with you because you really don't discuss in kind.  I've tried over the years to share my thoughts and experiences with you but you just talk to say what you want to say.  I guess that's the impasse between us.  I can't convince you to open your perception and you aren't impressed by anything I say.

TheDonald wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 10:14pm:


You believe that past life regression practices are vulnerable to evil influences??  Why?  And isn't that overgeneralizing things just a bit?  If one case of past life regression were true and meaningful amidst many that were false, that one case still stands on its own regardless.  As Bruce always says, it only takes one white crow. 

Vicky: "You believe that past life regression practices are vulnerable to evil influences??  Why?"

(1) Because on subjective matters like this, the verification question becomes crucial; and ES discovers that past life memories are deceptive forms of inflowing memories from hidden spirits who have merged with the astral traveler without that traveler being aware of this merger.  Indeed, ES was even able to dissuade a discarnate soul that such memories are legitimate.  ES's claim gains special credibility due to his uniquely impressive verifications.

(2) Because Robert Monroe's alleged astral past life recalls can't pass the snicker test: e. g. a past life with his wife Nancy who was tied down in a tribal ritual in which Monroe thrust a spear into her abdomen that "hurt so good;"  a past life on another planet in which Robert was flying in a machine over primitive natives who were throwing spears up at him. 

(3) Because in Dr. Ian Stevenson's research on alleged past life memories of small children, in 2 of the 20 cases it was demonstrated that the alleged prior personality was still alive prior to the child's alleged past life memories. 

(4) Because professional hypnotists have warned that hypnotic regression is not a reliable source of distant memory retrieval.

(5) Because in the midst of our debate about ES, I have dinner tonight with Mike, a professional hypnotist and former past life regresser and Transendental Meditation teacher, who confirmed (3) and shared his disillusionment with and repentance for these practices.  I believe the synchronistic timing of this dinner was divinely providential.  How likely is it that a man with such unique training and experience would enter my life and share his belief that past life recall is due to evil influences at precisely the time when I was debating such issues in this board? 

(6) Because in research on mass hypnotic regressions a tendency has been noted the subjects claim to remember past lives in which they were famous people like Napoleon or knew famous people.  I remind you that Marilyn from this site claimed to be the reincarnation of St. Peter and Justin claims to have had interactions with  St. Paul. 

(7) Because researchers have sent subjects to past life readers, asking about their immediate past life; and the past lives recalled were contradictory, not the same person.


VickyL "If one case of past life regression were true and meaningful amidst many that were false, that one case still stands on its own regardless.  As Bruce always says, it only takes one white crow." 

First, ES's astral discovery on this matter refutes the legitimacy of any past life claim, unless the contrary can be demonstrated.  How, then, can you find one legitimate case?

Second, your analogy is any case weak.   if one Ouija board player gets paranormal messages without demonic intervention, that does not mitigate the countless others who encounter evil entities while playing with the board (like our whole university education dept).