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Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection (Read 209768 times)
heisenberg69
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #225 - Dec 17th, 2011 at 6:27am
 
Don-

thanks for putting this thread back on the board, I have just ordered a copy of 'The Presence of Other Worlds'. I will post when I have read it.

D
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heisenberg69
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #226 - Jan 5th, 2012 at 6:12am
 
Don-

I have now read this lengthy thread that you kindly reposted and Van Dusen's book. Firstly, I think that there is no doubt that Swedenborg was a genius. But the question I would like to ask you is why you consider Swedenborg's astral verifications to be in a different league to that of any modern adept (you reiterate this a number of times).Van Dusen himself seems to downplay these in his minor miracle chapter- 'These little miracles, though very curious, are not really proof of anything' (p.157). For example, to me in the Queen Ulrica example we only have the Queen's agitated state as evidence (no details given) and with the Archbishop Troilus example the only real evidence of anything is of Swedenborg's wit.

This is an important issue as the idea of Swedenborg being in a different league has been used to relegate the findings of the modern adept as not being the equal of Swedenborg's. Admittedly I am very much a Swedenborg novice and so there may be hundreds of compelling  verifications.Perhaps you could post a couple of those which you find most evidential of genuine spirit contact.

D
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Berserk2
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #227 - Jan 5th, 2012 at 11:31pm
 
heisenberg,

When I read van Dusen's chapter on "Minor Miracles," I was expecting very little.  After I finished, I thought, "Wow, those experiences were the most impressive evidence for an afterlife I have ever read in a book.  What's up with the term "minor?"  If you read through this thread, you'll see that I have encountered many individuals whose experience replicates one of ES's incredible feats.  I am also impressed by the absence of anything like our New Age movement in ES's day.  Yes, he has his own biases, but I see in his experiences unvarnished originality generally untarnished by cultural expectations.  His classic book, "Heaven and Hell," is a tedious read.  But in scattered excerpts its telling discoveries ring true and impress me more than any modern books on the nature of the afterlife.  But patience is required to mine these nuggets from ES's tedious prose.

To me, what makes ES so unique is his paranormal ability to gain verifiable information at will from the deceased that cannot easily be dismissed as mind-reaching.  For example, consider his astral conversation with the deceased Dutch ambassador about the hidden compartment in the upstairs bureau where the sought after jewelry receipt was hidden. The ambassador had constucted this compartment himself and never told his wife.  Or consider his public accurate declaration of the exact miinute and hour at which Olof Olofssohn was destined to die and his dlsclosure to John Wesley that they could not meet at the contemplated date because ES had rightly been told that he would cross over shortly before that date.   Then consider his discernment and disclosure to a businessman of the factory fire where no one was present to have their minds read.  Or consider his detailed reconstruction of the last conversation between the merchant of Elberfield and his recently deceased friend.  To my knowledge, no medium or psychic has demonstrated a competence to even remotely replicate that feat.   Much of this is covered on page 1 of this thread in replies (3) and (4).   
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Justin aka Vasya
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #228 - Jan 6th, 2012 at 3:13am
 
Berserk2 wrote on Jan 5th, 2012 at 11:31pm:
heisenberg,

When I read van Dusen's chapter on "Minor Miracles," I was expecting very little.  After I finished, I thought, "Wow, those experiences were the most impressive evidence for an afterlife I have ever read in a book.  What's up with the term "minor?"  If you read through this thread, you'll see that I have encountered many individuals whose experience replicates one of ES's incredible feats.  I am also impressed by the absence of anything like our New Age movement in ES's day.  Yes, he has his own biases, but I see in his experiences unvarnished originality generally untarnished by cultural expectations.  His classic book, "Heaven and Hell," is a tedious read.  But in scattered excerpts its telling discoveries ring true and impress me more than any modern books on the nature of the afterlife.  But patience is required to mine these nuggets from ES's tedious prose.

To me, what makes ES so unique is his paranormal ability to gain verifiable information at will from the deceased that cannot easily be dismissed as mind-reaching.  For example, consider his astral conversation with the deceased Dutch ambassador about the hidden compartment in the upstairs bureau where the sought after jewelry receipt was hidden. The ambassador had constucted this compartment himself and never told his wife.  Or consider his public accurate declaration of the exact miinute and hour at which Olof Olofssohn was destined to die and his dlsclosure to John Wesley that they could not meet at the contemplated date because ES had rightly been told that he would cross over shortly before that date.   Then consider his discernment and disclosure to a businessman of the factory fire where no one was present to have their minds read.  Or consider his detailed reconstruction of the last conversation between the merchant of Elberfield and his recently deceased friend.  To my knowledge, no medium or psychic has demonstrated a competence to even remotely replicate that feat.   Much of this is covered on page 1 of this thread in replies (3) and (4).   


  Then it would appear that you haven't looked much into Edgar Cayce's work, for his was one of almost everyday providing verifiable psychically received info--most often in the altered state, but plenty of times while fully conscious, and over about a 30 year period. 

  But, since his work espouses the truth of reincarnation, and since that concept you have so much issue with, it's convenient to more or less just overlook him altogether in lieu of sources which more agree with your own personal philosophies and prejudices.   Or perhaps it's even easier to say he just communicated with "demons" or the like?

  But, that's just how we humans work, until we approach becoming PUL incarnate like Yeshua was and is.  We think ourselves so much more "objective" than we really are or tend to be.  We cannot be but semi-blind and quite subjective until we start to become fully attuned to PUL. 

  We all face and are limited by this, to some degree or other (directly proportional to how clear and PUL we are attuned within the moment, and especially by our "average" which relates to our overall "spiritual development"), something to keep in mind before becoming overly attached to one philosophy/creed, approach, source, etc. 
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heisenberg69
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #229 - Jan 6th, 2012 at 6:20am
 
Don-

I think a skeptic could legitimately argue that Swedenborg's fire verification was very much like a remote viewing scenario a la Pat Price or a Joseph McMoneagle but in a less-controlled setting. When I was researching mediumship about 10 years ago I found many an amazing verifiable 'hit' in the literature and so I don't feel Swedenborg is unique in that respect.What I feel is needed is some kind of objective criteria to judge claims by.For example, an atheist with an anti-Christian bias could claim (unfairly) that Swedenborg's findings are obviously the ramblings of a Christian mystic or an Islamic cleric could claim that his religion's astral insights are obviously the most authentic.I'm not sure what form this objectivity would take but do think its needed if concrete conclusions are to be drawn concerning the relative merits of different experiences.

D
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Berserk2
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #230 - Jan 7th, 2012 at 2:16am
 
Remote viewing is fascinating, but the US government abandoned their remote viewing problem due to erratic results.  ES seems to have been very consistent and, in his remote fire detection, was apparently not even trying to check in on that factory.  Somehow his presence next to the businessman in question was sufficient for an alert from the spirit world to help the man out. 

On this site, there is a retrieval section.  In contrast to ES, the rarity of any veriifications reported here and the vast gap in evidential value of alleged verifications (compared to ES) persuades me, sadly, that none of these retrieval reports are genuine.  I regret this because, if I'm allowed, soul retrievals would be my ministry of choice in the afterlife, and the New  Testament and early church teach that retrievals are possible.
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heisenberg69
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #231 - Jan 7th, 2012 at 7:12am
 
Don-

' In contrast to ES, the rarity of any veriifications reported here and the vast gap in evidential value of alleged verifications (compared to ES) persuades me, sadly, that none of these retrieval reports are genuine'

But verification reports posted would'nt be acceptable evidence because such reports could be dismissed as wishful thinking or the product of fraud. Bruce has written of his partnered exploration with Rebecca in his books which when on comparing notes later their experiences matched in detail and also given numerous retrieval verifications. We can choose to believe him or not but the fact of the matter without adequate objective criteria we can only really believe our own experiences.

D
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #232 - Jan 7th, 2012 at 5:12pm
 
Again Don says "
' the rarity of any veriifications reported here and the vast gap in evidential value of alleged verifications (compared to ES) persuades me, sadly, that none of these retrieval reports are genuine.'

So I'll repeat an answer to such an outlook:
*The nature of retrievals is to bring these people/ consciousnesses/ aspects out of their lowered level and raise them to a more appropriate level. That is the focus.

*The purpose of retrievals is not to find scientific verification of the existence of an entire person that might be so self-condemned.   It is to offer aid and assistance through an attitude of caring. When verification is discussed it's usually as an addition "...and it would be nice if we could verify this."  Apparently it's difficult for most humans to balance both the retrieval contact/removal with the remembering of verifiable data.

* However it is possible if not probable to do both, as the group retrieval (that I participated in) organized by romaine, proved. At the least, to those of us who participated.  Don didn't participate.

Those who are considering trying retrievals should not be discouraged by current lack of scientific evidence. Become a part of the answer to this problem by gaining experience.

No offense, Don.
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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heisenberg69
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #233 - Jan 8th, 2012 at 6:04am
 
A point I'd like to add to that is that verification does'nt have to be perfect. This is a mistake that skeptics often make. I remember Dr Susan Blackmore remarking on the stunning accuracy of some of Robert Monroe's eperiences in 'Journeys Out of the Body' only to reject them en-masse as non-paranormal because of errors. But as Prof Gary Schwartz pointed out in 'The Afterlife Experiments' a subject only has to be significantly better than the control i.e. pure guessing. There may be good reasons why exact correspondence may not happen such as interpretation error (which Bruce discusses in his books) but hopefully with practice and time verifications become clearer.
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #234 - Jan 9th, 2012 at 2:27am
 
heisenberg: "A point I'd like to add to that is that verification doesn't have to be perfect."

This is my favorite site on such matters.  I think I joined the site around 2001.  "Perfect" from whose perspective?  I want, even need, to believe that the retrieval I performed on an ex-girlfriend was real.  During the experience I was absolutely certain it was, but now I'm equally certain it was merely a lucid dream fueled by wishful thinking.  I have followed the Partnered Exploration research (including with Rebecca) and also found this unpersuasive, though I wanted to believe in it.  The discrepancies seemed more telling than the similarities.  I have read all 3 of Robert Monroe's books and find none of his evidence even remotely as compelling as Swedenborg's.  Charles Tart's experiments with RM seem way too off target to be significant.  The lady who felt "a pinch" provides no serious evidence either, since people feel all sorts of strange sensations naturally.  RM's claim that he met a younger version of a deceased doctor and later confirmed this by seeing a youthful photo is at least interesting, but not even remotely as impressive to me as ES's verifications.  And RM's past life recall is as absurd as confusing cartoons with reality.  Had I felt differently,  I would have gone to TMI and taken the training.  I applied once before I had thought about RM's evidence more closely, but they had filled their quota. 

Heisenberg: "But as Prof Gary Schwartz pointed out in 'The Afterlife Experiments' a subject only has to be significantly better than the control i.e. pure guessing."
I have read several books on the evidence from mediumship and find ESP a more plausible alternative explanation.  So Schwartz's work does not impress me either.  Edgar Cayce had some impressive psychic impressions, but once again was so often wrong that I attribute his successes to ESP.  With a few exceptions, the evidence that does impress me comes from the best of NDEs and Swedenborg.  That's why I spent so much time on the ES thread.  But don't think of me as a debunker.  I really want to believe in Bruce Moen's and Robert Bruce's methods.  My inability to do so is the main reason I abandoned this site for years.  I have no interest in causing disillusionment about such methods and really hope a new Swedenborg bursts on the scene. 

Don
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heisenberg69
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #235 - Jan 9th, 2012 at 5:26am
 
Don-

the Ambassador example, if true ( and I was a bit concerned that Van Dusen wrote : 'this incident was related by 11 different sources, most of whom agreed on the above account ' ) seems to be a fine verification but I would argue not unique. Mediums who impart information that the sitter does not know , but subsequently turns out to be true, happens.

My main concern is with the apparent arbitary nature whether some verifications are accepted and some rejected. A skeptic may say ' that's all very well but Don as a pastor is much more likely to accept Swedenborg's verifcations because Swedenborg was a Christian wth a very favorable attitude to the bible'.It may also work the other way in which someone with anti-Christian tendencies is biased against Swedenborg for that reason.

When scientists test the supposed ability of mediums one of the the key things good protocol controls for is rater bias i.e. the idea that sitters are more likely to mark highly if they think that the reading is for them. With this in mind we would take the verifications of various groups such as Christian mystics, New Age adepts, mediums etc. and be blinded as to their source and rate them accordingly. I don't know if this is possible but without it I don't see how sweeping conclusions can be drawn.

D
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #236 - Jan 18th, 2012 at 7:52am
 
I realise I'm not in line with the flow of recent posts on this thread but I would like to say this.

I am very thankful for those great souls like Socrates, Jesus, Shakespeare, Swedenborg and others, who have contributed so much to our development. All around us and inside us are their beneficial influences. As individuals, as a society, and as a world we have so much to be thankful for to the many great teachers who have visited our world.

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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #237 - Jan 18th, 2012 at 12:40pm
 
And for some reason, I feel no compunction to investigate, question or even ponder their validity. I too am thankful for thier presence in our lives and the contributions that they have made to the development of our collective consciousness. It makes me feel like I am part of a continuum.
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heisenberg69
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #238 - Jan 18th, 2012 at 2:54pm
 
"We are like dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants. We see more, and things that are more distant, than they did, not because our sight is superior or because we are taller than they, but because they raise us up, and by their great stature add to ours."

Quote attributed to 12th century theologian and author John of Salisbury later used by Sir Isaac Newton in a letter to Robert Hooke. Sums it up quite nicely I think.
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Re: Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection
Reply #239 - Jan 18th, 2013 at 4:28pm
 
Pauli, New Agers like you at times exemplify Winston Church's definition of a "fanatic:"  "someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject."  So, Pauli, you relentlessly press me to assess ES's theological beliefs, despite my constant reminders that I consider his bibiical interpretations fatally flawed, but think his astral abilities and verifications far exceed those of modern astral adepts.  For example, see topics (3) and (4) of p. 1 of this thread.  He also discovers awesome astral insights of scientific relevance that are far more impressive than the dogma-confirming claims of modern New Age adepts.  Oh, and Pauli, actually suspend your bias for a half hour and actually read through this whole thread.  You'll realize that ES is far brighter than any modern adepts; indeed, he is probably the greatest scientific mind in Swedish history. ES's other creative astral insights posted on p. 1 of this thread strike me as helpful breakthrough insights. 

Robert Monroe's alleged OBE verifications pale by comparision, though he, too, has a couple of interesting verifications.  Some New Agers here seem to find his discoveries threatening to their dogmas; so what I'm saying is that his verifications are impressive enough to be pieces of the puzzle of what is possible for astral communications and what we know about the structure of astral realms. 

Don
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