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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven (Read 44291 times)
Berserk
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #90 - Feb 10th, 2006 at 3:53am
 
(5) FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR "SPIRITUAL" NON-CHRISTIANS TO GO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN AFTER DEATH?

Consider this absurd argument.  "Let's not send food and medicine to starving children in Ethiopia and the Sudan.  If we save their lives, almost all of them will reach age 12, the age of accountability.  But then most of them will go to Hell because they haven't accepted Christ as their Savior.  Better to let them starve in the age of childlike innocence.  That way, they'll get to Heaven.  So letting them starve is actually the loving thing to do."  I hope you find this argument as offensive as I do.  So what is the answer to question (5)?

Many would dismiss this question on the grounds of several 'exclusivist" New Testament texts: e.g. "All who sin apart from the Law will also perish from the Law, and all who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law (Romans 2:12)."  But Paul celebrates God as "the Savior of all humanity, ESPECIALLY of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)."  The word "especially" stops us dead in our tracks when we deny that He is ultimately the Savior of unbelievers as well.  How can unbelievers be saved apart from formal profession of faith in Christ?  Paul answers this question in his discussion of the fate of non-Christian Jews and Gentiles in Romans 2:7, 10: "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life...glory, honor and peace to everyone who does good--first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."  

But these people have failed to gain forgiveness by trusting in Christ's atoning death.  Paul would reply that in pre-Christian times God "overlooked" sins committed in ignorance (Acts 17:30)."  Surely God takes the same position with respect to modern people who are ignorant of the sinful nature of their actions.  Again Paul would agree: "Before the Law was given, sin was in the world, but SIN IS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THERE IS NO LAW (Romans 5:13)."  Note the present tense 'is not."  

But even on this basis many pagans cannot qualify because conscience can be equivalent to the revealed written Law of Scripture: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do BY NATURE the things required by the Law, they are a law for themselves...SINCE THEY SHOW THAT THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them (Romans 2:14-15)."  Only God knows how many pagans find their way to Heaven on this basis.  

But doesn't Jesus always insist during His public ministry that all godly non-Christians be properly taught His message and His ministry of redemption?  Actually, no!  In Mark 9:38-41, John informs Jesus that a non-Christian Jew is successfully performing exorcisms. John adds: "We told him to stop because he was not one of us."  Notice how Jesus handles the situation.  He says, "Bring the man here and we'll explain the Gospel to him and offer him some basic instruction in discipleship.  Then we'll send him on his way to continue his ministry."  Oh, many evangelicals wish Jesus had responded that way!  But no, notice how He really does respond: "Do not stop him.  No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."  In other words, if you don't actively oppose Jesus by your values and actions, he considers you to be on His side.  On the basis of Jesus' actions here, would you still insist that this exoricist was unsaved?  Apparently, this man's successful ministry demonstrates to Jesus' satisifaction that his spirituality is the functional equivalent of what God requires.  

And how can Jesus say that "the poor" are "divinely favored" because "theirs is the kingdom of God (Luke 6:20)?"  How can He say elsewhere that "the poor in spirit" will "inherit the kingdom of heaven," that "the pure in heart...will see God," and "that "the peacemakers" will "be called sons of God (Matthew 5:3, 8-9)?"  Why doesn't Jesus insist in this context that all these classes must first be "born again" (John 3:3)?

I think Christians need to preach the Gospel and send out missionaries to convert the masses.  But I also think we'd better let God decide which non-Christians are bound for Hell and which are not.  Perhaps, righteous unbelievers spend time in one of the two Heavens below Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).  Perhaps, those who have received very limited spiritual light are purified or (in Jesus' poetic image) "are beaten with few lashes" in Hell (Luke 12:47-49) before being reclaimed for Christ.  As my future posts will argue, the Bible teaches that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.

Don
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #91 - Feb 10th, 2006 at 4:01am
 
(2) ARE THE RECENTLY DECEASED MORE SPIRITUALLY EVOLVED THAN THEY WERE IN THIS LIFE?

Parts of Heaven would be quite unpleasant if hypocritical or divisive Christians entered Heaven with little change in their level of spiritual development.  So most Christians seem to assume that at death they will enter Heaven as a finished product, as if they will suddenly become examplars of moral perfection.  They support this assumption by citing Revelation 21:27: "Nothing impure will enter it [the New Jerusalem = Heaven], nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."  But the language here is not as precise as many assume.  John is simply saying that the "insiders" will not be evil like the "outsiders": "OUTSIDE are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15)."  So 21:27 leaves open the possibility that residents of Heaven's lower levels might be less than wicked, but might still retain character flaws.    

Many Christians mistakenly believe that this possibility is ruled out by 1 Corinthians 13;12: "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."  This verse echoes the Greek translation of Numbers 12:6, 8: "When a prophet of the Lord is among you, I reveal myself to Him in visions, I speak to Him in dreams...With Moses I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles."  Paul is not teaching that at death believers become omniscient or morally perfect.  He is saying that in Heaven we will experience Moses' more intimate relationship with God.  We will not be limited by the "riddles" created by our murky earthly visions of the divine.  We will telepathically tune in to each other's thoughts and motives just as Heaven has direct access to our thoughts and motives (so e.g. Luke 12:2-3).

Three biblical points support the view that we initially arrive in Heaven retaining our earthy level of spiritual development.  (1) Jesus endorses a more nuanced version of the widely accepted principle that in the Hereafter like attracts like: "The measure you put out will be the measure you get back (Matthew 7:2)."  People of like flaws, beliefs, and interests will gravitate together.  
(2) When John the seer is dazzled by the saints robed in white linen, he is told that their appearance symbolizes (radiates?) their degree of moral development (Revelation 19:8).  Swedenborg learns from his astral travels that those of inferior develpment feel exposed and uncomfortable in the presence of those more spiritually advanced.  This discomfort apparently fuels a gravitation to a likeminded lower spirit plane.  

(3) Paul once travelled out of body or via phasing to Paradise which he locates in "the 3rd Heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).  An apocalyptic Jewish work, 2 Enoch (written from 1-50 AD) also locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven.  "Paradise" is an old Persian term that means "park" or "garden" and serves as the preferred initial (but merely preliminary) locale of the righteous (so the Apocalypse of Moses 37:5).  Thus, the crucified Jesus assures the penitent dying thief, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)."  Jesus' promise may imply that He will perform a "retrieval" for the thief's benefit.

The location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven implies that there are 2 "lower" Heavens.  These lower Heavens seem reserved for those who are not yet spiritually ready for Paradise and points beyond.  
Paul provides a glimpse of these lower Heavens in his discussion of the fate of divisive believers who build on the foundation (- Christ) "wood, hay, or straw" instead of "gold, silver, or costly stones (1 Corinthians 3:12).  Paul adds, "If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.  If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL STILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE (3:14-15)."  In rabbinic literature, the expression 'saved so as by fire" refers to a year-long stint in Gehenna designed for the purification of spiritually mediocre souls.  But the more immediate background of Paul's trip to Paradise is 2 Enoch, which also locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven.  In 2 Enoch 7 the lower 2nd Heaven is the domain of apostates who are still capable of praying for divine assistance.  All of this implies that in the Hereafter we initially remain at our earthly level of spiritual development.

What might be particularly interesting about this for readers of Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe is this: Paradise seems to be the Judaeo-Christian equivalent of Focus 27.  And the two lower Heavens seem to be the equivalent of the BSTs in Focus 25 and 26.   Certainty about esoteric claims from one source is enhanced by independent corroboration from totally different types of sources.

Don
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #92 - Feb 10th, 2006 at 4:07am
 
(4) WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF HEAVEN?

We find a hint of Heaven's purpose in Romans 11:36: "For  from Him and through Him and back to Him are all things."  This cyclical vision of creation already hints that damnation need not be the final state of those in Hell who have not opted for the annihilation option.  [More on that in my treatment of questions (5)-(7).]  The most fascinating biblical expression of Heaven's purpose can be found in 2 Peter 1:4: "He [God] has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through Him YOU MAY PARTICIPATE IN THE DIVINE NATURE."  Here Peter expresses the Bible's most glorious prospect for humanity.  Heaven is not an end in itself; it is merely a vehicle to help us achieve a profound union with God, a union which expands God's horizons in ways we cannot fathom.  Our mission is to help an already perfect God enrich and upgrade His experienc e and essence in ways that please Him {Her/ It).  

Peter's claim expresses much more than the traditional doctrine that we are created in God's image.  It expresses an idea very similar to the claim of certain astral adepts that we are all part of God.  When skeptics take offense at Jesus' claim to be God's Son, He responds that in a profound sense all humans are gods (John 10:33-36; citing Psalm 82:6).  But the narcissistic ego must be gradually suppressed and humble submission to God's will is required.  That submission should include love, adoration, and worship.  Our full realization of union with God must (from our time-bound perspective) await the completion of our long postmortem journey.  

In His human manifestation, Jesus has "emptied" Himself of His divine prerogatives (Philippians 2:6), and so, even He can temporarily distinguish Himself from God (Mark 10:18).  The Bible assumes the preexistence of the soul, but not reincarnation (e.g. John 9:1-2; Jeremiah 1:5; Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20).  Unlike us, Christ has no human preexistent state; rather, He preexists as God or rather "the Word" {Greek: "Logos"), i. e. the rational self-expression of God as opposed to God in His unknowability.  After His resurrection, Christ is restored to His full divine nature and prerogatives (Philippians 2:9-11), but now His humanity becomes absorbed into His divinity.  His atoning death and resurrection make possible our ultimate participation in the divine nature as well.  In that state, we ultimately share  jurisdiction over the cosmos (1 Corinthians 6:2) and just may be included in the heavenly throng poetically addressed at creation:  "LET US make humanity in OUR image (Genesis 1:27)."

These truths are poetically expressed by "Jesus and the angels" during Howard Storm's NDE:

"The universe exists because it is the activity of God and the heavenly multitude.  It was explained to me that it is like a vast orchestra and God is the conductor.  Each individual is an instrument with unique qualities.  Each soul contributes in their unique way to the symphony of creation.  There is no past or future in the symphony, only present.  The universe and all that is in it is the music.  We are the songs sung by heaven.  Outside of the symphony of life there is no time, space, matter, or energy. . .OUR ULTIMATE DESTINY IS TO PARTICIPATE WITH GOD IN CREATION.  The instrument we play is our being perfectly connected to God by the bond of love.  We know our part in the symphony because we have understood who we are and contribute our experience, our whole being, our spirit into the process (57)."

Don
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #93 - Feb 10th, 2006 at 4:20am
 
I have cannibalized some of this thread to include its material in my thread "Spitfire's Theological Issues."  I didn't mean to bring it to p. 1.  Actually, I'd like to delete the whole thread, but don't know how.  I tried, but was only able to delete my first post.  Can anyone tell me how to delete the whole thread.  Sorry, I did not intend this overexposure of my threads!
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Touching Souls
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #94 - Feb 10th, 2006 at 7:56pm
 
Donald, if you want the whole thread deleted, you can only delete your own posts. Write to the Peer Moderator and state your wishes. It's easy and effective.

Love, Mairlyn  Grin
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #95 - Mar 6th, 2006 at 1:26am
 
Don/Berserk, 

This is to state that I do appreciate your
posting about infrequency of communication with  departeds.

This has suggested a possible reason why I had just one unexpected but extraordinarily  memorable communication with my deceased husband.

As this may be of some relevance,I will share it.  Several years ago, I awoke quite early with the distinct impression that some one was in the room with me.  I turned to my side and saw my husband  (who had died approximately twenty years before) seated on a chest looking at me.  He looked older,but in superb condition. He was also
well groomed and well dressed.

I asked him what he was doing here, and he responded that he had come to take me home. I
answered that I had not finished saying good bye
whereupon he said, " All right, darling, go back
to sleep." Almost robotlike, I turned over and
fell into a deep sleep.  I had the distinct feeling,
while speaking telepathically, that it was my
real self answering him and I could only
speak truthfully.

His gravesite was in Europe, and I discovered
that he appeared to me about the time his grave
was destroyed by his father who then went on to
commit suicide.

As you can imagine, I truly feel very, very fortunate;
however, I am left wondering why the apparently untimely objective to take me home then.
.
Furthermore, I have not shared this experience with his younger brothers.  I wish to maintain a relationship with them, and I know  that  ADC phobic
would be an understatement.

Any thoughts on any of this?

Vikingsgal
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #96 - Mar 6th, 2006 at 1:55am
 
Hi Vikingsgal,

I have read that we have several 'exit' points that is in our life blueprint (what we choose in this lifetime). Apparently your higher self/soul didn't want you to leave then. That's wonderful that you actually saw your husband.

And welcome to the forum. Wink

Love, Mairlyn Wink
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #97 - Mar 6th, 2006 at 3:19am
 
Hi Vikingsgal, I enjoyed reading your story, not many of us are able to get such a visual as you did. I speak to the deceased from within my dream obe state for the most part. I remember being in a passenger with my hubby, also gone over since 1983, riding along I realized I was dead too and started crying and I told him I was just starting to have fun and now here I was dead as a doornail... Tongue I know he was communicating to me to enjoy the last quarter of my life, so I am doing just that.

and perhaps your hubby dropped in to help you decide to enjoy yourself more also, and to let you know he would be meeting you when the time approaches near. oh, you are so right, it is not possible to lie on the other side.....everybody tells the truth.
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #98 - Mar 6th, 2006 at 6:39pm
 
Thank you, Vikingsgal,

Your nickname nicely complements mine!  I am Swedish and, as you know, Berserkers were ferocious Viking warriors.  

I suspect the trauma of his Dad's destruction of his son's grave and his subesequent suicide powerfully energized your husband to seek out those who really matter to him.  In reply #4 this thread, I lay out the biblical grounds for believing that our loved ones can monitor our earthly progress at certain stages in their afterlife pilgrimage and to an undetermined extent.   Your husband's announced mission to take you home was probably more an expression of longing for your regular company than an assigned mission that was abruptly cancelled.  Since you mentioned my report on why our deceased loved ones can cause us dismay by their failure to contact us, I thought I'd repost my comments on this issue for your convenience.    

A few years ago I read a study on alleged communicatation from the recently deceased, e.g.  through waking visions or a strong sense of presence reinforced by paranormal physical phenonema such as moving objects, a sense of loving touch, or a characteristic fragrance.  The study found that 50% of Americans and 48% of the British can report such postmortem phenomena, generally within the first year since the loved one's passing.  Later contacts are also reported but are relatively uncommon.  

The question of why is one of the most important questions to be asked with respect to postmortem survival.  To most of us it seems inconceivable that we would never take advantage of the chance to contact our loved ones after death to reassure them of our wellbeing and of their glorious postmortem future.   Most famously, Houdini pledged to verify his survival to his wife, by revealing the content of a message sealed in an envelope. No one can explain why he never kept this promise.  I believe in postmortem survival, but acknowledge that this deafening silence is one of the best arguments against such survival.  Many desperate rationalizations have been offered to deflect the force of this objection.

Yet where Houdini failed to keep his promise, two distinguished professors may well have succeeded.  William James (Harvard) and James Hyslop (Columbia) promised each other that whoever died first would contact the survivor and confirm the reality of the afterlife. William died first, but nothing happened; so Hyslop forgot about their pledge.  Then a year later, Hyslop was contacted by a couple in Ireland.  They had been playing with a Ouija board and were continually receiving an insistent message from a William James, who kept on saying, "Track down my friend, James Hyslop, and give him this message, `Remember the red pyjamas.'"   For quite some time the Irish couple did nothing.  They had never heard of WJ or JH and the message seemed silly to them.  But then curiosity prompted them to try and track Hyslop down.  When they gave him the message, he was initially dismissive.  But then he remembered a conference he and WJ had attended in Paris during the winter.  Their luggage had not arrived and both men had to shop for winter essentials.   Hyslop was forced to buy some gaudy red pyjames and WJ had relentlessly teased him about his taste.  WJ apparently sent this message because its vivid and concrete nature made it less susceptible to interpretive distortion.    

Two common rationalizations for contact failure are worth discussing here.  (1) It is often reported that spirits contacted during astral exploration go through a stage when their memory of earthly life becomes very dim (e.g. Robert Bruce).  When and to whom this happens and for how long are mysteries without resolution from a consensus among astral adepts.   In any case, one would expect most of these forgetful souls to contact their loved ones at the first opportunity before their memories fade or after they are restored.    

(2) It is also claimed that deceased souls soon ascend to planes where contact with earthly loved ones is no longer possible or much more difficult.  This claim often seems negated by mediums who claim to contact loved ones at will, regardless of how long they have been dead.  In my view, most mediums'  claims of contact are bogus.  That said, the claim that postmortem contact gets increasingly more difficult finds its most poignant illustration in the EVP research of engineer George Meek.  

Consider these quotes about his research  in David Fontana's excellent book, "Is There an Afterlife?   A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence:"

"In 1973 Meek began working with...medium William O'Neil who apparently was then contacted by a deceased scientist Dr. George Mueller.  Mueller gave O'Neil a number of personal and seemingly obscure details about his life on earth, many of which were subsequently found by Meek and his colleagues to be correct.  Meek claims that none of these details were known by himself, by O'Neil, or by their colleagues, and he concludes that the Mueller case provided `one of the best documented cases of survival for more than 100 years.'  A summary of some of these details is given below, together with their verification:"

I will list just some key details and omit the tedious discussion of their verification:  Mueller's social security number; his daughter's address; 3 of his degrees and the universities where he obtained them; his membship in the Haresfoot Club in Wisconsin; his meritorious civilian award; his top security clearance from the US Army.  

"The instructions on how to build the [EVP] machine [Spiricom] came over a period of time, firstly through the mediumship of O'Neil and subsequently apparently through Spiricom itself (at which point all communications were audio-taped by Meek.)  From where did these instructions originate if not from Mueller (p. 362)?"

"The [independent] report on Mueller's voice prints [from the University of Tokyo] suggested that the voice might possibly have been computer-generated, but pointed out that computer-generaton of this kind would require a million dollar computer set-up (Remember we are talking about the equipment costs obtaining in 1982.) and many hours of complex rehearsal and adjustments far beyond Meek's financial resources and O'Neil's competence (p, 363)."

"...As 1981 wore on, it became clear from Mueller's communications that `he was beginning to shed his dense earthly vibrations and was starting his progression upwards' through the various levels of consciousness said to exist in the next world.  It became increasingly difficult for him to communicate through Spiricom, and he began to give instructions on how to build a more advanced model that would enable him to remain in contact. However, before these instructions were complete, Spiricom fell silent (p. 364)."

(3) What seems so difficult for most ordinary people and astral adepts was apparently easy for Emanuel Swedenborg. During his astral visits he successfully tracks down most of his dead friends and relatives.  He is able to contact the dead loved ones of others on demand and bring back spectacular verifications of his claims.  Many of you have read my documentation of some of these contacts in my earlier Swedenborg  thread.  As for famous deceased people, ES claims extended contacts with the philosopher Aristotle and the famous theologians John Calvin and Martin Luther.

Don
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