Hello Don,

Forgive me for jumping into your conversation here, but I would like to try to shed a little light on your last post.

I can understand and agree with what both you and Bruce are saying.  The problems arise because we are trying to explain these things in human terms.  I've experienced the spirtual world in ways other than doing retreivals so maybe that gives me a little different perspective.  Still... I do not have enough words to explain what I know of the spirit world except to try to think of these things in terms of frequency of vibration.  This is also how "all men are equal" as I see it.

If one can think of moral accountablility in terms of frequency then I think what Bruce is saying is easier to understand.  I do think all hells are self-imposed and one can move on by making different choices, but these choices need to raise the frequency of their vibration to that which would be sufficient for that being to move to a higher level of frequency, otherwise they would stay put.  And the only judgment in this would be the way in which spiritual laws function... not God punishing someone.

Using your David Rader rationalization... this guy is in for a rude awakening until he comes to a new realization and made choices that raised the frequency of his vibration sufficiently for him to move to a higher level. 

I don't know if I'm making any sense here or not.  Based on my experience... this is the best I can explain things at the moment.

Love and peace,
Kathy 

Yes Don, I think we are in agreement, too.  I also see your point in regards to “There is no good, there is no evil.  There is only expression” however, I do think this statement could also be helpful to people as well.  Much depends on the perspective from which someone views the meaning of it on a personal basis.  Now I am not arguing with you as I do see the point you are making here, but I would like to share another perspective.

Good and evil in essence speaks of our dualistic nature and expression is how we create that nature.  The creativity in and of itself is neither good nor evil.  The result of active creativity or the movement of spiritual energy produces the energetic vibrations of what we call love and fear or what we also think of as good and evil.

This dualistic nature is created at the time we incarnate into a human existence and from a spiritual perspective is neutral… neither good nor evil.  It is only the process in which we experience individuation.  Btw… in regards to “reincarnation”… I think we incarnate… not reincarnate.  For example the personality of myself as Kathy only incarnates once, however, from the perspective of the totality of God that I am in my True Divine Essence, can and does incarnate many, many times as various personalities, which is also a part of the process of individuation.  It is also only through individuation that we can come to know our unique inner divinity.

As Essence incarnates it creates interpenetrating “levels” that also correspond to the seven chakras.  The fourth level is the bridge between the three higher spiritual levels and the lower three physical levels.  As the fourth level is created, it splits in two and becomes relational and this is where the duality of our nature is created and plays itself out so to speak in terms of good / love and evil / fear in our physical existence.  Therefore, from a spiritual perspective Bob Monroe’s statement is accurate… “There is no good, there is no evil.  There is only expression.”  Now of course, from a human perspective, this would bring us full circle to the point you make regarding this, which I think, is also accurate.

Love and peace,
Kathy

Quote: I saw I had been seeing him as evil as they come, and I was seeing that even this guy had a guide out here helping him get through life with all it's problems and miscommunications that go on.

alysia,

This story causes me to wonder about the nature of PUL. 

Is PUL a noun or a verb?  Is it what we are or what we do? 

When we consider "good" and "evil" as actions who then are we?  If we at our centers are love, how then does love create evil?

To me our lives are like an unmade bed in the morning which we can straighten or leave rumpled.  Who is to say which is right or wrong? 

love, blink

Thanks, Kathy,

That makes sense to me, that those on the "other side" and "here" who are guided by fears of any kind would naturally gravitate to a different realm than those guided by love, not because they are intrinsically "evil" but because they are "weighted" by this fear.  Although love is at their centers, they cannot see their own centers because their vision is clouded by their fears.

love, blink

(8) DID THE EARLY CHRISTIANS PRACTICE ASTRAL PROJECTION?  IF SO, ARE MODERN ASTRAL  PROJECTION TECHNIQUES PERMISSIBLE FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE?

Perhaps, the most intriguing New Testament example of an OBE is that experienced by Paul and described in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.  One wonders what secrets he was forbidden to reveal--secrets disclosed to him in Paradise.  In this text, Paul coyly speaks of himself in the third person as "a man":

"I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.  I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago was caught up to the third heaven.  Whether it was in the body or out of the body, I do not know--God knows.  And I know that this man...was caught up to Paradise and heard imexpressible things, things that humanity is not permitted to tell." 

Paul shares this experience to counteract propaganda spread by traveling "super-apostles" who are apparently adept as miracle workers and astral travelers.  These men have circulated reference letters to various churches documenting their miracle-working credentials.  Compared to them, an aging Paul seems less than imposing to the Corinthians in his speech and personal charisma.  Paul objects not to his opponents' spiritual gifts, but to their arrogance in treating these gifts as a badge of their true spirituality.  So Paul resists the pressure to match their press clippings, and instead, lists his extraordinary sufferings in the service of the Gospel.  He sums up his perspective on true spirituality as follows:
 
"To keep me from becoming conceited because of my surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in the flesh (= some sort of physical affliction)...Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.  But He said to me, `My grace is sufficient for you.  For my power is made perfect in weakness.'  Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me (12:7-9)." 

If we read between the lines, Paul is tacitly approving our right to perform OBEs, so long as we do so to promote God's work.

Biblical examples of astral projection make me wonder whether the allusion to "the silver cord" that binds body and soul (Ecclesiastes 12:6) reflects descriptions of astral travel.  In the Bible what we call astral travel is normally portrayed as being "in the Spirit" or being "carried away in the Spirit".  Astral travel is clearly a prophetic prerogative and is experienced by the prophets Ezekiel and John:  e.g.

"The Spirit lifted me up and took me away...(Ezekiel 3:14).
"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet...(Revelation 1:10).
"After this I looked, and there was before me a door standing open to Heaven.  And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, `Come up here.' and I will show you what must take place after this.'  At once I was in the Spirit (Revelation 4:1-2)."
"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain... (Revelation 21:10).

As late as 200 AD, astral travel remains a function of being "in the Spirit" through the exercise of the prophetic charism.  In Tertullian's church, astral projection is actually encouraged during the Sunday service:

"Because we acknowledge spiritual gifts, we too ...acquire THE PROPHETIC GIFT... We now have a sister among us whose lot it is to be favored with various revelatory gifts.  Right in the church in the midst of Sunday's sacred rites, she experiences these gifts by ecstatic vision, while IN THE SPIRIT.  She converses with angels, and sometimes even with the Lord.  She both sees and hears mysterious communications.  She [clairvoyantly] understands some people's hearts and distributes remedies to those in need.  Whether during Scripture reading, the chanting of Psalms, the preaching of sermons, or the offering up of prayers, she receives the means and opportunity to see visions in all these services...After the people are dismissed..., she routinely reports to us whatever she has seen in visions.  All her communications are scrupulously examined to probe their truth.  `Among other things,' she says, `I have been shown a soul in bodily shape, and a spirit has been regularly appearing to me.  This spirit is no void and empty illusion.  You would even expect it to offer its hand to be grasped.  It is soft and transparent, with an ethereal color.  it resembles the form of a human being in every respect (Tertullian, De Anima 9:4).'"

Apparently, the state of consciousness that facilitates this woman's astral gift also allows her clairvoyant insight into parishioners' guarded secrets and insights into the solutions to their problems.  She even seems to have a spirit guide. 

From a Christian perspective, astral travel can be a function of the gift of prophecy.  The question arises as to whether a Christian is permitted to explore the astral planes without being bidden by God to a special calling.  The answer depends on how we interpret Paul's injunction to "strive for" prophetic capabilities:

"Let love be your highest goal, but also strive for {"zeloute") the special abilities the Spirit gives, especially the gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 14:1)."

Paul would include prayer and meditation under the umbrella of appropriate striving.  But what about modern techniques of meditation such as the Gateway CDs or Bruce Moen's CDs?  Christian preachers are always applying biblical teaching to modern situations never forseen by biblical writers.  I see no reason why CDs cannot be used to kindle the modern Christian's prophetic gifts.  The real question is not the method, but the motivation.  It would not be proper for a Christian to embark on willed OBEs simply to satisy his curiosity.  To qualify as prophetic, his gift would have to be used to promote God's causes and edify his brothers and sisters in Christ (1 Corinthians 14:3).

In the early church, such prophetic gifts were suppressed around the same time that a consensus was developed to limit the New Testament canon to the 26 books it now contains.  This consensus was achieved around 200 AD, but was not formalized until later.  After 200 AD, there are only a few minor quibbles about the suitability of this or that book for inclusion in the New Testament canon.

Don

Don,

I agree with you 100% in regard to evil - there is such a thing and it is harmful. The mantra that anything is all right is like a scorpion's sting, speaking in an allegorical way.

This is true of the "New Age" theology (for lack of a better term - no offence intended to anyone). And this is also true about those Christians who fanantically believe in "faith alone" even though the only place in the Bible the term "faith alone" is mentioned is in James, chapter 2.

I believe it was Mark Twain who said (badly paraphrased in my words): "In order for evil to flourish, a good person must do nothing."

One only has to sit and watch the film on the Holocaust, to see on the news the unspeakable horrors of Rwanda and other grotesque things of man's inhumanity to man to know that there is evil in this world - and that it is a free choice of people.

Thank you for your determination to state truth as you know it.

With Peace and Blessings to All,
JudyE

Planet earth is the perfect classroom. It should be called Love 101.  If we were immortal on earth, we would be dragging our butts to learn what love was. No fears no worries..we would never get out of here.  I guess God wants to see us develop more than we want to stay here.