Sorry Judy, that's what I get for trusting my memory.  The Judy that authored "Hello from Heaven" has posted on this site and I have regrettably confused you two gals.

Don

(7) CAN PEOPLE BE RETRIEVED FROM HELL AND BROUGHT UP TO HEAVEN?

We find this affirmation in the Apostles' Creed:
"He (Jesus] descended into Hell."  This affirmation is based in part on Peter's ciaim that, after His resurrection, Christ sought to gain the release of sinful human spirits who had been dead for thousands of years:

"He [Christ] was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago...(1 Peter 3:18-19)."

"Prison" is a common Jewish image for Hell.  The implication is that the unrighteous dead receive a new chance to repent and be "retrieved" to Heaven.  Peter then extends the potential for soul retrievals to include all the dead in Hell.  1n 1 Peter 4:5-6 it is no longer Christ who proclaims the Gospel to the dead;  rather He Himself is proclaimed to them, probably by deceased saints:

"They [pagans] will have to give account to Him [Christ] who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this reason HE WAS PREACHED EVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOW DEAD, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

Thus, the tragic verdict on our bodily existence can be reversed in the realm of spirit by Gospel proclamation and soul retrievals.  The souls selected for retrieval have presumably evolved to the point where they are ready to move on to a higher spirit plane, a Heaven.

Jews begin praying for the dead prior to Christ (e.g. in the Catholic Bible see 2 Maccabees 12:41-45).  In  the early church this practice evolves into proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead.  We encounter this mysteriously lost rite in 1 Corinthians 15:28-29.   Here Paul hints at his belief (expressed more clearly elsewhere) in the possibility that all humanity will eventually be saved.  He insists that God will ultimately "be everything to everyone" and implies that proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead is part of that process.  Paul's invocation of this practice in support of Christian doctrine means that we cannot dismiss it on the grounds that it is an obscure and soon to be ignored aspect of early Christian ritual.

In the early 2nd century, this practice is reinforced by a belief in postmortem baptism in the Acherusia lake near the Elysian field.  The early church borrowed these locales from Greek mythology and incorporated them into its vision of Heaven.  Consider these two quotes from orthodox Christian apocalyptic from the first half of the 2nd century:

"[Christ:] Then I will grant God to them (the damned), if they call to me (in their torment) and I will give them a precious baptism for salvation in the Acherusia lake, which...is located in the Elysian field, the portion of the righteous with the saints
(Apocalypse of Peter 14--from 135 AD)."

"To the devout, when they ask eternal God, HE WILL GRANT THEM TO SAVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE DEVOURING FIRE AND FROM EVERLASTING TORMENTS.  For having gathered them again from the unwearying flame and set them elsewhere, He will send them FOR HIS PEOPLE'S SAKE into another life, indeed an eternal one, with the immortals, in the Elysian plain, where are the long waves of the ever-flowing, deep-bosomed Acherusia lake (Christian Sibylline Oracles II:331-38
from 150 AD)."

Consider the contrast between this vision of Heaven and another early patristic vision, which  imagines the righteous sitting in Heaven's Colosseum and enjoying the role reversal of damned Romans in the arena below.  The texts just quoted hint at a much nobler Christian perspective that is at times implied, but is never made explicit, namely that none of us ultimately make it unless we all make it.  Your success is my success; your failure is my failure.  I like the way a  missionary to China, C. T, Studd, expresses this attitude in a charming little ditty:

"Some wish to live within the sound of church and chapel bell.
I wish to run a rescue mission within a yard of Hell."

As a realm of pure unconditional love, Heaven cannot truly remain Heaven for the righteous unless they dedicate themselves to facilitating the growth and liberation of denizens of Hell and the lower Heavens.  Fire is an early Christian symbol of this purification process.

The seeds of this teaching appear in John's Apocalypse.  To see this, it helps to realize that John the seer does not comprehend every aspect of his otherworldly journeys and that, if he did, he might well grimace at the teachings being disclosed to him.  He and his beloved churches are being persecuted by both the Romans and local synagogues.  John is shown Heaven through the image of a hovering New Jerusalem and learns that Heaven's gates can never be shut (Revelation 21:25).  This image implies eternal traffic coming and going.  But going out on what missions?  Why would anyone leave Heaven?  We are told that "outside" are the evil souls residing in Hell (22:15).  So the image allows for soul retrievals from Hell.

This interpretation finds reinforcement from two other texts in Revelation: (1) John's vision of everyone in Hell (i.e. "those under the earth") joining all humanity in the worship of God and Christ (5:13); (2) the intriguing mystery of the unidentified "2nd resurrection."  That is, his visions assume a pattern of first death, followed by "first resurrection" and "second death" followed by 2nd resurrection (20:6).  But John never identifies the 2nd resurrection.  His anger at his persecutors probably makes him reluctant to do so.  It is usually assumed that the 2nd resurrection precedes the Great White Throne judgment (20:11ff.).  But that assumption places the 2nd resurrection before the 2nd death.  Besides, resurrection ("anastasis")implies the concept of being raised up and there is no implication that the dead are "raised up" to Heaven for the Great White Throne judgment.  The 2nd death is the lake of fire.  So to maintain the pattern first death, then first resurrection and 2nd death, then 2nd resurrection, the 2nd resurrection must surely be retrieval from the lake of fire.  Only Heaven's eternally open gates make sense as the vehicle for the 2nd resurrection.  

The prospect of universal salvation through soul retrievals also seems implicit in the hymn in Philippians 2:6-11:

"therefore, God has highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven, on earth, AND UNDER THE EARTH, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (2:9-11)."

In this hymn everyone in the universe makes this saving confession.  "Every knee...under the earth" refers to everyone in Hell.  For Paul, the confession, "Jesus Christ is Lord", cannot be uttered apart from the Holy Spirit's inspiration, if it is sincerely uttered (1 Corinthians 12:3), and this confession automatically makes one a Christian (Romans 10:9-10).  The Philippian hymn must have in mind the salvation of the hellbound confessors because it is based on the invitation to universal salvation in Isaiah 45:22-23: "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth...Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear."  The hymn's glorious image resembles John's vision of everyone in Hell worshiping God and Christ in Revelation 5:13.

Some might object to this perspective by invoking texts like Hebrews 9:27: "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment."  But one must ask, "What happens after the judgment?"  Or for similar texts, one must ask, "What happens after the wrath, the exclusion from God's kingdom, and the consignment to Hell?"  In this respect, it is important to realize that neither in Hebrew nor in Greek do the words translated "eternal" mean that.  Rather, they mean "for an indefinitely long period of time."  Thus, in Judaeo-Christian literature from late antiquity, "eternal sleep" can be followed by a new and positive status.

So what about sayings like John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me?"   In the afterlife Christ can redeem those who never believed in Him during their earthly lives.  Christ Himself performs soul retrievals (1 Peter 3:18-20) and other retrievals from Hell are performed through opportunities to respond to the Gospel (see e.g. 1 Peter 4:6).  In short, God's desire to save everyone never changes and God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.  Perhaps, God's omnipotence even allows Him to reclaim those who have opted for soul annihilation.  That prospect must remain an open question for now.

In my next post, I will illustrate how non-Christian OBEs and NDEs sometimes depict Christ's retrievals from Hell and thus support my conclusions.

Don

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Interesting point.  Now that I think about it, what you're saying is actually a defense of the concept of divine grace, which I believe to be a very important spiritual truth.  I have been reflecting on Howard Storm's statement some more, and I can agree it in one respect -- that evil can be addictive.  For example, when a person turns to the ego and selfishness, this can be a self-reinforcing cycle of ego-gratification, so the person tends to become trapped in this condition and moves farther and farther away from God.  However, I do believe it is possible for that cycle to be broken, either through individual free will or through divine grace in the form of soul retrievers sent by God to try to reach those souls who need help to rise out of their addiction to the ego.  Nevertheless, there is the problem that a hellish condition would imply pain and suffering, so that in and of itself may be enough motivation for a soul to want to change, as I said in my previous post.  But there may be exceptions to that rule, if it is possible for a soul to experience enjoyment of evil in hell.  I do not know if that is possible, but I tend to doubt it, because I believe God created the hellish planes as a way to encourage souls to be redeemed from evil tendencies they have cultivated.  During life on earth, evil may be enjoyable, but in the afterlife, it will not be -- at least that seems to be a logical assumption to make based on testimonies of spiritual visions, NDEs, scriptural texts, etc.

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Good point, although I think this may be a case where language can be limiting in the human search for metaphysical truth.  What exactly is "annihilation" anyway?  We can have a conception of it, and some people may be told about it in spiritual experiences, but do we really fully understand what it means?  For example, we can annihilate a piece of wood by burning it in fire, but in one sense we really have not annihilated it, only changed it into smoke and ash.  If we tear down a house, we might save the boards and materials again to construct a new house, even though the original house was annihilated.  So, it could be that annihilation of the wicked is actually just a way of talking about a total deconstruction of their personality or soul, with no trace of the original person remaining.  But it is possible that the consciousness continues in some other form, just not as the same discrete entity that previously existed.  I am open-minded about annihilation of the wicked if that is what it means, and I suspect that could be the truth because a major law of the universe seems to be that everything is always in flux and that nothing can ever be created or destroyed, only changed.  Perhaps we all experience some degree of soul annihilation after death, the purging fire, so to speak, that enables us to burn away the ego and draw closer to God.  Perhaps for some extremely wicked souls, that process must be a total purge that leaves nothing of the original personality remaining.

Incidentally, I think "reincarnation" may be another one of those concepts where language fails to convey the absolute metaphysical truth.  People talk about reincarnation versus no reincarnation, but it may be that we have missed the point, because our minds are not able to fully understand the nature of the spiritual world and how the soul interacts with other souls and with matter.  We tend to think of ourselves as individual entities with no connection to anyone else unless we are someone else (i.e. reincarnation) but that may not be metaphysically accurate.  So, that could be why a lot of credible NDEs testify to the truth of reincarnation, just like a lot of credible NDEs support annihilation.  It could be that in both cases, it's more of a language issue, where people must try to explain a concept that is bigger than what the human mind can naturally comprehend, using words that are available to us but do not accurately describe what is going on, unless we attempt to probe deeper and look for a meaning that goes beyond popular conceptions.

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I agree that both the universalist and annihilationist perspectives could have part of the truth, because perhaps the truth of the soul is not an either-or thing.  I mean, you've got different levels of consciousness within one "being" -- the spirit, the soul, the mind, the personality, etc.  Which part gets redeemed or changed, and which part gets annihilated?  In the big picuture, both could be true simultaneously.  That's one way of looking at it, anyway.  There might be beings that are so far gone into evil that the only option God has is to totally annihilate the personality to the point where it could be argued that nothing of the original being remains except the pure unformed consciousness, which God could then take and put into something else.  I don't know, but I suspect it's possible.  I do not think, however, that consciousness in and of itself can ever be destroyed, because I believe all that exists is the result of consciousness, that all entities have proceeded from God, the Universal Consciousness, and that all return to that infinite Source.

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So am I.  The difficulty is that in some cases, revelatory claims such as NDEs defy preconceptions in a way that goes against some traditional Christian views.  For example, Linda Stewart is a well-known experiencer who was brought up as a Bible-belt fundamentalist Christian, but her NDE taught her to accept universalism.  There are cases where Christians have come back from an NDE believing in reincarnation as a result of their experience.  So these things are far from clear.  It seems that in many cases, people's minds about various metaphysical issues change as a result of NDEs and other revelatory experiences, but their minds do not always change in the same ways, so we are left with different credible NDEs that teach different beliefs.  I do not know if there is a solution to this problem.  People probably will always just decide to accept some NDEs as more credible than others simply because they support their own religious viewpoints.

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Even if all of this is accepted as absolutely true, that does not mean that everything Howard Storm believes about metaphysics is the absolute truth.  For one things, his beliefs are not entirely based on his NDE.  For another thing, his perceptions and memories of his NDE may have been influenced by his own mind.  Furthermore, something I have noticed about NDEs after reading a lot of them is that the spirit beings encountered in NDEs tend to tell the experiencer what they know that person needs to hear, not necessarily absolute truth.  That is something that bothers me, because I am a person with a very rational mind who likes things to be clear-cut and non-relativistic, but I have to say the evidence strongly suggests that the NDE experience is tailored to the individual and everything that is said and shown to a person may be primarily for their own consumption, to advance them in their own spiritual journey.

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Yes, and another thing is that if, as you have told me before, demons are allowed by God to impersonate Jesus, we have absolutely no idea whether Howard Storm or anyone else who claims to have encountered Jesus in an NDE saw the real Jesus.  I am not saying Howard Storm saw a demon; I do not think that was the case.  However, if it is possible for spiritual beings to pretend to be Jesus and get away with deceiving people, then it is simply a matter of faith whether Howard Storm's Jesus is the real Jesus.  I would be inclined to believe that yes, he saw the real Jesus, but that is because of my own choice of belief, not any proof.  Furthermore, there is some evidence from NDEs that spirit guides actually can, in some cases, pretend to be Jesus or whoever the person needs to see to provide them with comfort and spiritual growth.  This is yet another twist in the NDE puzzle.

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I do plan to read Howard Storm's book soon.  I have already read a lot about his NDE on his page on Kevin Williams' near-death.com site, so I have a flavor of his experience already.  It certainly is an interesting one, and I intend to read his entire book.

I don't think it's that easy to authenticate whether or not an entity is Jesus.  Knowledgeable people can try, and they may have some success, but ultimately we have to follow our intuition or conscience which we may believe to be the Holy Spirit guiding us (and we could be wrong).  If it were so easy to figure out which spiritual revelations are true and false, there wouldn't be hundreds of Christian denominations and hundreds of other religions all claiming to be divinely revealed truth and all having scholars and intelligent people supporting them.  Of course, if an entity speaks things which contradict fact, such as if an entity says that Jesus was not crucified and did not rise from the dead, then we must reject that entity as speaking for God (at least that is based on what I believe to be historical facts).  But the more subtle issues are more difficult to resolve authenticity and a lot of it basically becomes a personal judgment call, a matter of faith.

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Perhaps because of my own past experiences of being fooled by a false religion claiming absolute infallibility of its founder (Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith), I am prone to skepticism that anyone can be infallible and have a perfectly correct understanding of the truth, even if they have experienced compelling spiritual visions.  Baha'u'llah claimed to have seen visions of an angel telling him he was the greatest prophet of all time, and he claimed that every word he ever wrote (dozens of volumes of text) was dictated to him by God's voice.  Yet, he got a lot of things wrong and his claim of spiritual authority is almost certainly bogus.  But he probably did have some real spiritual experiences, but was deceived about what he saw, or who knows what.  Where I'm coming from is a standpoint where I realize that truth claims of divine revelation are very hard to determine whether they are true or false, and there are a LOT of competing truth claims out there, and always have been.  Some people have come back from NDEs claiming that hell is eternal; others come back claiming there is no hell.  Some come back convinced of reincarnation; others come back convinced we only live once in the flesh.  Some NDEs promote Jesus; others do not lead people to believe in Jesus or Christianity.  As much as I hate to say it, it seems that a whole lot of these experiences people have may either be coming from their own mind or else their recollections and interpretations are influenced a lot by their own mind.  Or an even more confusing possibility, that what people are shown and told in NDEs may actually be relative to their own spiritual needs, rather than absolute truth.

Still, of all the NDEs I have investigated, Howard Storm's does seem like one of the most credible ones.  But I am VERY wary of ever accepting any man as an infallible messenger of God, no matter how amazing the spiritual experiences and visions they have had.  I do not feel I need to believe that I have to agree with everything Howard Storm or anyone else says.  Perhaps I am too skeptical, although it's based on a desire to avoid being fooled again by people who claim to know the absolute truth who really don't.

Freebird

Regarding Robert Monroe's experience, this has been discussed quite a bit on another list in the past and the consensus was that he was in a 'false heaven.' Anyone who knew Bob Monroe knows that he kept religion and spirituality out of his experiences. This does not make him anti-christian nor pro-christian.  Just ask Bruce.

Love, Mairlyn

Marilyn, Robert Monroe reports that "Locale II seems to have portions of hell" and adds that his many encounters with what appear to be retrievals performed by Christ occur throughout Locale II (JOOB, p. 122).  Though some of these encounters no doubt occur in "hollow heavens", he seems to imply that at least some occur in a hell.

Alysia, perhaps "bigotry" is too strong a word, though it reflects my honest feelings about Monroe's comments on Christian spirituality.  By this term, I had in mind not only his stunning refusal to verify Christ's identity and seek out an informational session, but also the sarcasm reflected in his chapter entitled "`Cause the Bible Tells Me So", where he stereotypes prayer with the image of "the way our children sing `London Bridge Is Falling Down (JOOB, p. 117).'"  Its quite appropriate for him to point out that prayer doesn't work for him.  Indeed, given his attitude, that failure is quite understandable.  But it is irresponsible for him to postulate as a "known"(not merely a belief) that "our Creator...does not intercede or interdict in our life activity UJ 224-225)." How can he presume to deny in this way  other people's experience of the power of prayer?

Don

Justin,

Yes, you are right about Jesus (Yeshua).  i admit that I have not totally assimilated one dimension of His teaching style.  He does not explain the meaning of his parables to outsiders.  He does not want them to settle for a left-brain understanding of them.  He seems to feel that spirituality is better caught than taught.  He wants people to incubate on what we might call the archtypal symbolism of His parables and relate this to life experience until something rings true.  We who presume to teach about Jesus may be unwittingly doing some harm in our zeal to be clear and comprehensive.

One reason why Jesus required His disciples to travel with Him without adequate provisions was to teach them the power of living by faith by direct experience.  According to Mark, Jesus did not go around claiming to be the Messiah.  Rather, he wanted people to discern His identity from a direct encounter with His loving presence. 

In Mark, Jesus follows an interesting pattern with respect to His miracles.  In Israel, if He has a chance to heal privately, He instructs the grateful beneficiaries to keep a low profile about their healing.  Of course, in their jubilation, some ignore Jesus' request and the crowds often render the muting of miracle stories unpractical.  But why this pattern?  Perhaps because Jesus deplores second hand spirituality and wants people to discern the kingdom of heaven within through comtemplative reflection rather than offered proofs.  There is so much we don't know about Jesus' unique pedagogy.  I wish I were more Christlike, so people could sense Christ's Spirit within me merely by my loving presence.  There is much wisdom in the old saying, "Who you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you say."

Don

Don quote:"What you say during your prayers to assist the deceased can have powerful effects.  During prayer you can be in direct contact with them, whether you're conscious of it or not (Bruce's FAQs)."
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I agree with this statement above. we can be in contact with many without being conscious of it. I think gaining more consciousness is a project, an unfoldment of life on Earth, slowly, we gain more awareness as we go along. praying and assisting each other is part of it.
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I thank Roger B. (late of this site) for sending me Howell's book.  Sadly, he and I agree that most of the retrievals reported on this site do not ring true like those performed by Howell's family.  I do not enjoy being negative.
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well, I differ a bit with you Don. being negative is a habit and u don't have to be negative when u interpret another's experience as not worthy of consideration. u can never know a person simply by reading what is posted here utilizing words only. words are only symbols.  we are all teachers in a way; always teaching to others what we are. if we are being negative we are teaching negativity. the idea is to balance positive thoughts with negative thoughts, using interpretation skills balanced in the heart area. there are no throwaway people really. there are just people who are fearful to express themselves, that they will labeled or reacted to negatively by another because their words are inadequate to describe their journey here. thank god there are people like Howard Stern whom you can discern is more credible in regards to retrievals so u can continue to have hope for humanity's evolvement towards what is important here. there is priority to offer prayers and assist each other here on this side, as if we can't do it on this side, we are surely not going to become proficient to retrieve on the other side. but it's a personal journey in self honesty. it's about #1 then. physician heal thyself before healing another. we do have help, both on this side and the other. we all have great potential. no need to classify each other into groups or camps. God sees every sparrow that falls is another way to put it. I'm greatly excited that humanity moves towards greater understanding of our potentials as it moves away from destructiveness or the need for war. you can look at the whole world picture but the real work goes on between day to day relationships. as usual, I hope you can trust your journey and if you can't get what u want that u can get what you need and that u can bring heaven to Earth one day. (on Earth as it is in heaven, the Lord's prayer). thanks for trying to assist us, we're actually doing pretty good here all in all. I love this board and I'm still grateful Bruce wrote his books and put this thing up. it's like going to a saturday night dance where the whole world shows up.