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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven (Read 44269 times)
Brendan
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #15 - Apr 28th, 2005 at 5:55am
 
Don...
I hope you don't believe in a "God" who answers
the prayers of a football player that his team will
win the Super Bowl...
But lets little kids drown in a tsunami (no doubt praying their little hearts out the whole time...)
But as I've previously noted, you DO seem to be
a more "benign" type of Christian. And you are
clearly no "el stupido"...
So what's your take on the above? (And please!!!
Let's have none of of the "Lord works in mysterious ways" cop-out...)
I mean, one IS a petty, even moronic request (the football prayer) and the other isn't (that of the child praying for his/her life.)
Yet many of today's Christians would consider the football prayer a reasonable, even NOBLE thing to ask of "God"...
(I was inspired to write this by your comment on the "mistaken notion" that "God" doesn't answer "petty requests" as held by Middle Platonism in the Greco-Roman era.)
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Touching Souls
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #16 - Apr 28th, 2005 at 7:47am
 
God answers every prayer no matter how insignificant it may seem.  That doesn't mean that we are going to get everything we want. God answers prayers according too a person's highest good. Wink

Blessings,
Mairlyn  Wink
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Raphael
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #17 - Apr 28th, 2005 at 9:51am
 
What if our dead relatives were answering our calls ?

Seems more plausible to me
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Berserk
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #18 - Apr 28th, 2005 at 10:53pm
 
Brendan,

I wish God would offer more help to my beloved Buffalo, Bills, but of course you're right.  Your comment about the tsunami catastrophe reminds me of a Pentecostal church in Phuket where every parishioner survived the tsunami and the building remained intact, despite the surrounding death and carnage, including four deaths in a nearby Catholic church.  I don't know how these Pentecostals construed their good fortune.  If they thanked God for sparing their lives, this would imply that God decided not to spare the lives of all the nearby Catholics, among others.  This reaction would be inappropriate.  But it would be acceptable for them simply to thank God for allowing them to continue in His service in their region. 

Much harm has been done by the mistaken assumption that the biblical God controls all natural disasters.   The Bible teaches that at creation God brought order out of chaos.  What is less known is that the Bible also teaches that God never took control over the forces of chaos in Nature:

e.g. "The fastest runner doesn't always win the race and tbe strongest warrior doesn't always win the battle.  The wise are often poor, and the skillful are not necessarily wealthy.  And those who are educated don't always lead successful lives.  IT IS ALL DECIDED BY CHANCE, by being at the right place at the right time (Ecclesiastes 9:11)."

In Storm's NDE he is told by "Jesus and the angels,"

"God doesn't control or dictate the outcome of every event, which would be a violation of God's creation.  This is because every bit of energy and matter has its own integrity and course to fulfill.  Every living creature has its own will that must be expressed ("My Descent into Death," p. 38)."

Preachers make God unlovable to many when they warn them that they must embrace every natural tragedy as a manifestation of God's sovereign will.
The King James mistranslation of Romans 8:28 has caused harm: "All things work together for good."
Paul is really saying, "God works in all things for good."  In other words, all things may be working against you, but through your faith God is working to salvage something good out of a bad situation.
So God empathizes with us as we suffer from events that God did not cause and never intended (Romans 8:26).  In Storm's NDE, "Jesus and the angels" expound on God's empathy this way:   

"...People experience God's emotions as we participate in God's creation just as God participates in the creation and feels our emotions (p. 39)."

God's emotions, however higher than our emotions, are what allow God to manifest as if He were a "person", despite the fact that He is in fact "The One" in the sense that "God's consciousness is the entire creation (pp. 68-69)." God's emotions are a manifestation of His essence as pure unconditional love.

Of course, none of this removes the mystery of prayer, but it points us to the right questions: e.g.
(1) God does not micro-manage our lives, but does have a few plans for our destiny.  The future is not fixed.  So under what circumstances can God's plan for us be thwarted, if at all? 

(2) What are the full promise and limitations of prayer properly offered in a disciplined life? 

On Marilyn's insight:

We need to be honest and intimate with God in our prayers.  So the prophets and the psalmist often complain bitterly to God and, with His blessing,  even argue with Him.   Honesty requires us to be very specific about what we truly want and what seems in the best interest of those in need.

But Marilyn nicely expresses a key Christian principle of prayer.   God appreciates our limited perspective and responds to the real need behind each petition for our "highest good."   So it is advisable to meditate on what form God's answer might have taken.  For example, in grad school, I went through periods of loneliness and besieged God to bring me my fantasy woman.   No doubt God was appalled by my cowardly refusal to risk rejection and  aggressively pursue a potentially unattainable woman I wanted.  When I would pray like this, I'd acrtually get a few unexpected calls from women who never called me or hadn't called for a long time.  I wound up asking them out, but panicked because I was a poor grad student and none of them were my fantasy woman.  So I now complained to God that He was going to bankrupt me.  Of course, my fantasy request was immature.  But in retrospect, I realized that God was replying to the real needs behind my request--loneliness and a current lack of balance in my life.  And I invariably had a great time with these women.

If we embrace the notion that every prayer offered in faith is answered at some level, then we must become creative and patient in contemplating what form the answer might eventually take.  This attitude can gain momentum for our faith and make it easier down the road to receive more awesome answers to future prayer requests.   

Raphael, your question is the perfect segue to my second scheduled topic: "Are the recently deceased more spiritually evolved than they were in this life?"  You remark, "What if our dead relatives were answering our calls? Seems more probable to me."   What makes you think they are as up to the task as, say, angels?  And why do you rule out direct intervention by God?

Don 
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Raphael
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #19 - Apr 29th, 2005 at 7:00am
 
Quote:
What makes you think they are as up to the task as, say, angels? 


Don't we help each other on earth ? Can't a father help his child ? A mother help improve her daughter's life ?

What about friends who are there for you in this life ? Why wouldn't they help a friend in need if they cross over ?

What about cops and psychologists and all the priests on earth that want to share their love and help ? Why stop it on the other side ?

Because they are not perfect ? Perfection doesn't exist Don ! Even God wouldn't be perfect if he exists because he created life and life isn't perfect. Also a perfect being doesn't need anything so he wouldn't create life. (sharing means you need to share so you would be imperfect for if you don't share you would suffer).

Quote:
And why do you rule out direct intervention by God? 


I don't claim it to be false. I "believe" it would be pointless. Why create a god to answer our calls when we could do it ourselves ? As you can see the universe can work properly without a god so I wonder why we should add a useless peice to the puzzle.



Good questions though
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blink
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #20 - Apr 29th, 2005 at 8:17am
 
Just a general comment.  I believe the spirits try to communicate in any way they can.  My personal experience is that I have been contacted in dreams, and sometimes on request.  I wanted "proof" and asked for it and got it.  I have been spoken to directly and clearly with very short statements into my left ear at some of the darkest moments of my life.  I could hear the message clearly, and like I said it was very short, just enough.  I have had a biref familiar scent invoked while a clear message to a family member presented itself to me.  I have had computer equipment act bizarrely.  I have had physical objects move on their own right in front of my eyes.   I have also been provoked by "evil" spirits but not for many many years now.  "Evil" has no real power over people who continually seek positive guidance.  It's a weird world we live in, and it's definitely not "easy" for "them," and I don't claim to know who "they" are, but it happens regularly to me, at least "regularly" in the context of a lifetime.

sincerely, blink
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Lights of Love
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #21 - Apr 29th, 2005 at 8:43am
 
Hi Raphael,

I've often thought that there is much beauty and perfection within every imperfection.  The grain of a piece of wood for example can be seen as imperfect, but yet many see that the real beauty is within the imperfection itself.  I think this is true for all human beings and all things as well.  We only need to look.

Much love,
Kathy
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Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.
 
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alysia
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #22 - Apr 29th, 2005 at 9:54am
 
what a neat thread. Kathy, I support your view about the beauty being in the imperfection. theres a movement back to this kind of thinking showing up the way some artistic people decorate their houses with simple, log cabin type objects, rustic and unfinished, but somehow beautiful and simple and making a statement about life. a bunch of dried flowers for example can be seeded or just stand there representing a promise.
Blink, my journey is similar to yours. I wanted proof also and got it. I think we need to demand it even sometimes although I've been passive most of my life, I see nothing wrong with demanding signs if you need help right away with something or you're going under. all my messages were short and to the point also, no lectures, lol, just do this thing, do it now, as you have asked, so shall you recieve....
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Raphael
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #23 - Apr 29th, 2005 at 10:10am
 
Yes it's true, a perfect world would be pointless. Imperfection might be more beautiful.

But if "god" willingly created an imperfect world he wouldn't be a good god then since he would be the source of all suffering...

Everything makes sense if there is no god.
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alysia
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #24 - Apr 29th, 2005 at 3:19pm
 
the word God came from the root word good. there is always good in the world waiting to be revealed and in the eye of the beholder only. we need a new word for the word God though. we've just about worn the word down to nothing. the force be with you brother. lol.

ACIM says God knows nothing about this world we created, that he only sees his children sleeping wrapped in a bad dream. this is poetry, not to be taken literally. but we can assume we all created this world together for better or worse and we are passing through it as nothing stays the same here and theres no security in physicality. there is only one thing to do in that case; enjoy it as it's over too swiftly. suffering is relative and fluid like and theres no such thing as eternal damnation or the wrath of God, unless you're into that sort of thing and that's the kind of movie you like....
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Raphael
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #25 - Apr 30th, 2005 at 7:10am
 
Then we agree. There is no god like they depicted in religions.

And if you were talking about the collective soul who would be "god". That's no god to me and that bring me back to "there can be an afterlife without a god, we can manage it ourselves"
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #26 - Apr 30th, 2005 at 11:53am
 
"[Raphael:] But if 'God' willingly created  an imperfect world, he wouldn't be a good God then, since He would be the source of all suffering."
____________________________________

But what if suffering is essential to true goodness?
A universe without  pain, suffering, and hardship might be morally inferior because it would lack the pain-dependent virtues.  The quality of our character is diminished without courage, compassion, generosity, and patience.  There is no courage without danger, no compassion without suffering, no generosity without want, and no patience without the frustration of anxious and painful delays.

Also, the moral value of love derives from the fact that is freely offered; and the value of our freedom is directly proportional to our capacity to choose contrary to strong evil inclinations.  Choices made with no inclinations one way or the other would be random, not free. 

In an alternate world in which pain is fairly distributed, the incentive to do good is less moral because it is motivated too much by the desire to avoid pain.  Our world is well designed to motivate us to be loving for the sheer delight of growing in love.  Our irrational world creates enough incentive to choose evil and thus makes us truly free.

Kathy,  a key insight of Christian spirituality is the principle that God delights in perfecting His strength through our weakness.  This principle alone can stifle the ego's relentless narcissism, glorify God's grace and PUL, and refute the hideous notion that progress  through the heavens is bankrolled by an accumulation of merit points.   

Paul''s life is a good example of this.  The number of times he was sick, cold, hungry, tortured,  rejected, and shipwrecked greatly weakened his physical strength and made him a less imposing figure.  His critics ultimately ridiculed his public speaking and his diminishing charisma, made worse by his failing eyesight.  They demanded that he supply letters of recommendation documenting his recent miracles.  Instead, Paul documents examples of his weakness and suffering in the service of the Gospel!  Why?  Because God told him, "My strength is perfected  through your weakness (2 Corinthians 12:8),"  God gave Paul this answer in response to Paul's repeated petitions to remove "the thorn" in his flesh (some physical disability).  And next to Jesus, Paul was arguably the most spiritually effective man who ever lived.  It is debatable whether Christianity could ever have become a world religion without Paul's tireless missionary efforts. 

This is my answer to the question of why God didn't just bypass the earth experiment and place us in pleasant astral realms devoid of the earth's chaotic disasters and suffering.  It also helps explain why the recently deceased are NOT more spiritually evolved than they were in this life.  But this brings me to the next two questions of my 8-fold topical schedule for this thread. 

Don

P.S.1:  Kathy, nice image of beauty in weakness!
P.S.2:  Raphael, I'm not questioning our deceased loved ones' desire to assist us, only their initial  capacity to do so.  But I'm admittedly uncertain about the ratio of heavenly nonhumans to discarnate humans within the ranks of "guardian angels."
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alysia
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #27 - Apr 30th, 2005 at 12:02pm
 
don't know if you're talking to me Raphael, when u say we agree. I suppose it's always the case we agree until we decide to disagree. it's all about self expression to me, or self creation in the absense of a God who would assist the process. have to resort to a bit of personal experience here as I think we all agree it's experience that counts, not theorizing, postulating or conjecturing upon someone else's experience or even the bible story characters. I support Bruce's statement here that you must experience as that's what we come here for as probes of a greater self. passing on experience must be a sharing sort of thing, as your own experience does little for another being, so I see us communing here, and it's holy to me, but that's again my interpretation. I will naturally agree with anyone because Christians and non Christians are all valid experiencer's to me and I don't see good or evil operating. just interpretations and points of view.

heres me ittle story. I am now a wee child who talks to God. there was no one else to talk to. early man needed a God as he was lonely. he fabricated a God being who cared that he was lonely. it's not easy having a life. it's a challenge. many of us bail out. for all you survivors out there my heart is with you. children have invisible playmates as well. mine was God. when I told him my troubles, that I was being ill treated or whatever, there was no verbal answer or burning bushes but I was always strengthened that I could hold up to such comments as "you're a horrible child, or you are making everyone in the house sick." such comments are taken seriously by children, and I've learned a lot about phychology in this life, that the child within does not die to what it perceived going on. thus the need for such self retrievals and why I was led to this board perhaps in order to self retrieval. back to the point God does not need us so much as we need him/her/vision/strengh/love/forgiveness.
but our view of what God is changes of necessity and thats where experience talks the loudest. it's an inside job and the bible is of little help if any. my pov. I'm sure others will disagree.
I think people helping people is God in action here and it acts to erase lonliness and separation when it can come about this way without ulterior motives. Don has brought up some good questions here and maybe we can share our own experiences if we can simplify some of those questions; you tend to throw a lot at us Don all at once, as if we are cramming for a test on friday. lighten up and maybe we can have more fun with it.
let's see; one of those questions was about whether our family members acts as guides, whether they are qualified to do so perhaps, or whether they are able to do this. so I have this other story how my grandmother was helping my mother to feel better about herself, (Nanny is deceased) spiritually. my mother's a hard worker and she reported each day what Nanny had said to her within her dreams. just simple stuff, like "I'm proud of you" would carry mother through her day and was her spiritual food. it was PUL. it was getting her to a place of forgiveness also, for she was doing her life review. happens to all of us when we start aging here. Nanny was working to bring mother and I closer together from the other side. That is what God is. to me. I think she has succeeded. not only did nanny fortify mother spiritually, she also revealed to her where she could have done better by me; which threw mother into a tailspin temporary as she dealt with the guilt. I got to watch my mother and I growing spiritually first hand as I also had my work to do with facing the early truama of being the black sheep in the family. without nanny as guide we'd probably both be up a creek without a paddle. so that's what God is, is totally relative to each person. of course we don't offer prayers to family members to "fix" us. Nanny was doing what she loved to do, expressing PUL, so she had turned into our angel. isn't it neat to think of dying and becoming an instrument of loving assistance to others? I'm sure she could have been off doing more exciting things, and here she was helping her daughter and her grand daughter out and blowing my mind at the same time. I never knew her in life, but I remember her defending me as a small child to mother, that she had to learn to accept me. I believe she finally accepted her black sheep child, and that is PUL operating. that is my God. you don't talk to PUL. you just live it, in the direction it points to.
so we have assistance here, you just don't recognize the angel standing at your door sometimes and it's not always a family member, but could be a family member from way way back..the family of humanity....
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alysia
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #28 - Apr 30th, 2005 at 1:14pm
 
is it a coincidence we posted within about 4 minutes of each other Don?
you said:
But what if suffering is essential to true goodness?
______

what is true goodness? I don't want to be contrary here but you bring up good points. I sense a change in you from previous years. or maybe it's me or both of us. so with the question of suffering versus no suffering, many of us can become martyr's and elevate ourselves erroneously that we are this or that perfection unrecognized therefore God will reward us. such a phrase as "pick up your cross and carry it" in reference to this.
this would lead to a superiority complex if embraced as a belief system. within a spiritual phychology the idea is to neither have an inferior nor a superior complex, but be of a probing nature mentally and stay balanced within relationship to others.
what your saying is "no pain, no gain" the athletes slogan when strengthening his muscles.
trouble is the pain filled life can be overly identified with as a spiritual life of superior dimension, when in actuality we don't need pain necessarily and it can be thrown off by the choice to experience what is pleasurable instead, not to avoid pain, but utilizing free will to experience what we wish through the imagination as an aid.
why suffer if there's no reason? once I sliced my finger for example. I felt the slice of it without looking. before the pain signal got to my brain, my guide, whom I call DP shouted at me "DO YOU NEED PAIN?" well, I quickly thought about it and said, certainly not! I had a choice there in that instant and made the right one, as when I again looked at the finger I saw no blood, and had no pain, only a tingling sensation as if the cells were gathering themselves together quicker than the eye could discern.
so this tells me something about will, and about our choice making abilities firmly expressed, even outloud perhaps. affirming my will outloud did seem to add power to the moment. I quickly went into a space then. Jesus thoughts, choosing, my self image, all of that crowding in. we are amazing beings is all I concluded, quite capable of choosing the miracle over the established rules of what we can and cannot achieve here on our planet, painlessly, that is and assuming there is that grace element we sometimes talk about. I think grace is related to the ability to forgive and make fresh starts. doesn't have anything to do with religion from my pov as the child does it all the time, we might take their example then....
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Re: A Fresh Look at Heaven
Reply #29 - Apr 30th, 2005 at 2:23pm
 
(2) ARE THE RECENTLY DECEASED MORE SPIRITUALLY EVOLVED THAN THEY WERE IN THIS LIFE?

Parts of Heaven would be quite unpleasant if hypocritical or divisive Christians entered Heaven with little change in their level of spiritual development.  So most Christians seem to assume that at death they will enter Heaven as a finished product, as if they will suddenly become examplars of moral perfection.  They support this assumption by citing Revelation 21:27: "Nothing impure will enter it [the New Jerusalem = Heaven], nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."  But the language here is not as precise as many assume.  John is simply saying that the "insiders" will not be evil like the "outsiders": "OUTSIDE are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15)."  So 21:27 leaves open the possibility that residents of Heaven's lower levels might be less than wicked, but might still retain character flaws.    

Many Christians mistakenly believe that this possibility is ruled out by 1 Corinthians 13;12: "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."  This verse echoes the Greek translation of Numbers 12:6, 8: "When a prophet of the Lord is among you, I reveal myself to Him in visions, I speak to Him in dreams...With Moses I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles."  Paul is not teaching that at death believers become omniscient or morally perfect.  He is saying that in Heaven we will experience Moses' more intimate relationship with God.  We will not be limited by the "riddles" created by our murky earthly visions of the divine.  We will telepathically tune in to each other's thoughts and motives just as Heaven has direct access to our thoughts and motives (so e.g. Luke 12:2-3).

Three biblical points support the view that we initially arrive in Heaven retaining our earthy level of spiritual development.  (1) Jesus endorses a more nuanced version of the widely accepted principle that in the Hereafter like attracts like: "The measure you put out will be the measure you get back (Matthew 7:2)."  People of like flaws, beliefs, and interests will gravitate together.  
(2) When John the seer is dazzled by the saints robed in white linen, he is told that their appearance symbolizes (radiates?) their degree of moral development (Revelation 19:8).  Swedenborg learns from his astral travels that those of inferior develpment feel exposed and uncomfortable in the presence of those more spiritually advanced.  This discomfort apparently fuels a gravitation to a likeminded lower spirit plane.  

(3) Paul once travelled out of body or via phasing to Paradise which he locates in "the 3rd Heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).  An apocalyptic Jewish work, 2 Enoch (written from 1-50 AD) also locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven.  "Paradise" is an old Persian term that means "park" or "garden" and serves as the preferred initial (but merely preliminary) locale of the righteous (so the Apocalypse of Moses 37:5).  Thus, the crucified Jesus assures the penitent dying thief, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)."  Jesus' promise may imply that He will perform a "retrieval" for the thief's benefit.

The location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven implies that there are 2 "lower" Heavens.  These lower Heavens seem reserved for those who are not yet spiritually ready for Paradise and points beyond.  
Paul provides a glimpse of these lower Heavens in his discussion of the fate of divisive believers who build on the foundation (- Christ) "wood, hay, or straw" instead of "gold, silver, or costly stones (1 Corinthians 3:12).  Paul adds, "If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.  If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL STILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE (3:14-15)."  In rabbinic literature, the expression 'saved so as by fire" refers to a year-long stint in Gehenna designed for the purification of spiritually mediocre souls.  But the more immediate background of Paul's trip to Paradise is 2 Enoch, which also locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven.  In 2 Enoch 7 the lower 2nd Heaven is the domain of apostates who are still capable of praying for divine assistance.  All of this implies that in the Hereafter we initially remain at our earthly level of spiritual development.

What might be particularly interesting about this for readers of Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe is this: Paradise seems to be the Judaeo-Christian equivalent of Focus 27.  And the two lower Heavens seem to be the equivalent of the BSTs in Focus 25 and 26.   Certainty about esoteric claims from one source is enhanced by independent corroboration from totally different types of sources.

Don
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