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Hi Don,

This might be possible if these ones were afforded knowledge of our spiritual progress. If such were the case....how would they be informed? Would they be able to investigate themselves by being able to somehow view our lives as we live them?...and/or would they have access to some Akashic or soul records or angels that monitor our spiritual progress...or a combination? I am interested how much access loved ones in spirit have concerning knowing about how we are progressing - how much more do they know about our well-being/progress than we do theirs? Does them being in the spirit world enable their senses to be enhanced any....to where their psychic powers are naturally heightened to where they can see and gather knoweldge about souls in the earth-world?


paul

Hey Berserk !

You didn't even mention the point you said you would try to answer 

You said : Quote:

and my reply was :
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I'm still very curious of your opinion on that.

(1) CAN OUR DECEASED LOVED ONES MONITOR OUR
     SPIRITUAL PROGRESS?

First, we need to establish a biblical foundation.
Astral adepts routinely report the astral presence of discarnate human guides who are well informed about the needs of these explorers.  The role of these guides is anticipated by a neglected affirmation in the ancient Apostles' Creed: "I believe in the communion of saints."  This doctrine extends the gaze and ministry of deceased saints beyond the boundaries of Heaven.  The doctrine finds eloquent expression in Hebrews 12:1:

"Therefore, SINCE WE ARE SURROUNDED BY SUCH A GREAT CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."

The Greek 'martus" (= "witness") implies the sense of "spectator".  This nuance is clear from Hebrews' only other reference to witnesses (10:28).  As one Commentary on Hebrews puts it,

"`Witnesses' does not mean `spectators,' but those who have borne witness to the truth, or those enumerated in chapter 11.  Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principle idea.  The writer's picture is that of an arena in which the Christians...are contending in a race, while the vast host of the [deceased] heroes of faith...watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid." 

Jesus stresses the intense awareness and emotional involvement of the righteous dead in our spiritual progress: "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who don't need to repent (Luke 15:7)."  This saying leaves unclear whether it is angels or saints who are rejoicing.  But His ensuing comment makes it clear that He has deceased saints in mind: "I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of angels or God over one sinner who repents (15;10)."  Here it is apparently not the angels who rejoice, but deceased humans dwelling in the angels' presence. 

The righteous dead continue to promote our spiritual welfare.  They are aware of our suffering and intercede for us that God may establish His justice on earth (Revelation 6:9-10).  The intercessory work of the righteous is implied by the poetic visionary image of Revelation 5:8:
"...the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb [= Christ].  Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints."  In other words, the righteous dead are in some way involved in the success of our intercessory prayers.

Discarnate saints can intervene at crucial points in history.  A Jewish historical text in the Catholic Bible describes the role of a high priest and the prophet Jeremiah (both deceased) in assisting Jewish freedom fighters in their successful attempt to liberate Israel from the occupying Syrian Greek armies (2 Maccabees 15:11-16).  Belief in this type of discarnate human intervention prompts some at Christ's cross to muse: "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him (Matthew 27:9)."  Moses and Elijah materialize in the presence of Peter, James, and John to discuss Jesus' imminent fulfillment of His redemptive mission (Luke 9:30-31). 

In Matthew Jesus teaches that "the kingdom of God HAS COME NEAR (10:7) and the kingdom of God HAS COME UPON YOU (12:28)."  In Aramaic the word for "kingdom" means "reign" and "realm".  In other words, Jesus means that the heavenly dimensions cam become accessible to you.  So Moses and Elijah return from the kingdom of God to converse on a mountain with a transfigured Jesus in front of 3 of His disciples. 

Traditional Christan angelology has discouraged many believers from investigating the implications of the ongoing involvement of our loved ones in our lives.  True, the Bible generally treats angels as a nonhuman species.  But even the presumed role of guardian angels need not preclude an analogous role for discarnate human helpers and our dead loved ones.  Besides, in both Hebrew and Greek the word "angel" merely means "messenger" and there are several classes of angels.  Furthermore, Acts 12:15 probably implies that deceased saints can qualify as one class of angel. 

The setting is an urgent prayer meeting in Mary's house.  The apostle James has just been executed by Herod and Peter has also been arrested and scheduled for execution.   But Peter is more fortunate.  He is rescued by an angelically induced earthquake and races to Mary's house.  When Rhoda answers the door, she freaks out, leaves him standing there, and rushes to tell the others.  They react incredulously:

"`You're out of your mind,' they told her.  When she kept insisting that is was so, they said,  `It must be his angel.'"

They intially seem to assume that the Peter lookalike must be an executed Peter's spirit.  If so, then they deem him to qualify now as an angel.  In other words, a discarnate Peter can now visit them as an angel and reassure them that he is alive and well beyond the grave.  Of course, they soon  learn that Peter is still very much physically alive. 

But what are the practical implications of all this?  I invite you to share your thoughts, while I reflect on what I've learned from Howard Storm and David Fontana about this intriguing issue.

Don

Dear Paul,

As I think of replying to your last post, I  feel like Steve Martin who once opened his comedy act with the line, "I will now inhale this piano."  [He then turns to the piano with a fierce expression and deeply inhales.]  As  I try to inhale the issues spawned by our current question, I feel pretentious in presuming to shed more light.  But I will try to do so anyway in the hope that I might at least illumine the contours of this  mystery.  Accordingly, in each of the next 3 days, I will successively address these 3 questions:

1. [Sunday:] Intervention and guidance from our     guardian angels can be spectacular.  So why is their role so seldom apparent?
2. [Monday:] Why don't more of our deceased loved ones reassure us from beyond the grave?
3. [Tuesday:] Why I Believe We Should Pray Directly to God and Not to Angels, Saints, or the Virgin Mary:

My answer to question #1 is forthcoming.  But first I must avenge an online chess defeat at the hands of someone who caught me napping.

Don

WHY IS THE SOMETIMES SPECTACULAR GUIDANCE AND INTERVENTION OF  OUR GUARDIAN ANGELS SO SELDOM APPARENT?

Let's provisionally assume that the guardian angel category might include both heavenly beings and discarnate humans.  Most Christians assume that when their prayers are answered, God has directly intervened in their behalf.  But how often and under what circumstances do guardian angels play a role in manifesting the divine answer?  For example, in Acts 12 we find the early church fervently at prayer in Mary's house to save the lives of the apostles James and Peter who have just been arrested by Herod.  James is executed anyway, but a guardian angel rushes to Peter's aid and generates an earthquake that allows his escape.  Here is a clear case where an angel responds to prayers directed to God.   But where was James's guardian angel?  I guess we have to assume that James's time was simply up.  

Jesus rushes to Howard Storm's aid after this atheist utters his first ever prayer during his initial NDE torment.  After his NDE, Storm receives several visits from guardian angels who heal him of an otherwise fatal condition and guide his spiritual journey.   These angels generally at least appear to be discarnate humans.  The late Catholic mystic Thomas Merton appears as his guide in one case.  Merton's intervention is particularly impressive because he gives Storm a book of his poetry to read and then receives it back.  Merton's apparition is simultaneously witnessed by Storm's pastor.

Storm recounts his spiritual oddysey in his book, "My Descent into Death."  The role of angels in his journey is thrilling, yet frustrating because the reader longs to know why she can't have analogous experiences.   One can only speculate about why Storm is so privileged.  I'd tentatively offer 3 conjectures as to why:

1. Storm's condition seems terminal.  In such a crisis the spiritual body may partially detach and have easier access to heavenly realms.  One's psychic capacity may be improved by this rupture.
2. A study of church history reveals that prophetic gifts become more active during life-threatening predicaments such as impending martyrdom.
3. Perhaps, Howard receives special angelic attention precisely because of his potential to progress so far so quickly.  He is soon transformed from an irrascible militant atheist to a man in training for fulltime Christian ministry.  I myself experienced my most powerful experiences of God's loving presence when, as a 16-year-old, I was on the verge of renouncing my faith.

I believe I've occasionally been helped by guardian angels, but I'm unclear as to where to draw the line.  One day I was driving home after a tiring day of college lecturing.  I stopped at a red light, but my view of crossing traffic was blocked by parked trucks.  When the light turned green, an inner voice yelled "Stop!"  I slammed on the breaks just as a speeding 8-wheeler sped through the red light.  The inner warning saved my life.  Almost exactly the same thing happened to Howard Storm.  

Other times these inner warnings seem to make no difference.  At Princeton I had a nightmare that my life was in danger.  The next day my car broke down on a New Jersey freeway in rush hour traffic.  In moments, another car crashed into mine and totalled it.  I had just exited the car and escaped to the side of the road.  I called two buddies at Princeton who came and picked me up.  Both of them had experienced nightmares of impending evil the prior night.  But it is unclear to me how these nightmares saved me from injury.  Perhaps I would have tried longer to restart my car if I had not had my nightmare.  My nightmare was on my mind as I struggled to restart my car.  Did my guardian angel warn me in one or both cases?  Or were both wanings simply clairvoyance that involved no angelic intervention?  I prefer the former interpretation, but I don't know for sure.

I've shared many of my death premonitions here and won't repeat those stories.  Occasionally, the warning proved beneficial, and so, might have been conveyed through an angelic impulse.  But other times, the warnings seem to have served no useful purpose either because I was sure the victim would pay no heed to me or because I didn't know where the death blow would come from.  In those cases, I think clairvoyance is the more plausible explanation.  But here I find myself drawing distinctions  that I'm not sure are warranted.

I've shared the story of Methodist missionary E. Stanley Jones's premonition on this site.  Jones was standing in line in India to buy a plane ticket and attend a missionary conference.  An inner voice insisted that he get out of line.  Jones dismissed the voice as paranoia, but it got more insistent as he approached the front of the line.  The plane crashed killing hundreds of people (mostly Hindus).  When a reporter heard about his premonition, he sarcastically asked Jones, "Are you saying that, as a Christian,  you're so special that God warned you alone and allowed hundreds of Hindus to perish?"  Jones replied, "Oh no, God loves those Hindus at least as much as He loves me.  Its just that I'm the only one who was listening."  

This incident is as disturbing as it is thrilling.  Was Jones warned by God through his guardian angel?  If so, why weren't the Hindus warned by their guardian angels?  Didn't they have any available to them?  It seems glib to simply argue that Jones was the only one whose time was not yet up.  What determines who does and does not have an effective guardian angel?  

Does Swedenborg have the best answer to this puzzle?  Swedenborg rates the title the father of astral projection and has most impressive verifications for his astral talents.  Judy B supplies his perspective in reply to Freebird's post, "I heard spirit beings talking about me."

On the threshhold of awakening, Freebird hears two voices, one positive and one negative, talking about him: Being #1: "He doesn't even have the courage to do the thing he wants to do."  #1 is apparently referring to Freebird's suicidal thoughts arising from an unpleasant physical disability.  Being #2 defends Freebird: "That's because he believes that life is precious, and cares about the ultimate results, and he wants to live unto God."  [Freebird is a bright an stable guy.  I doubt he's in danger of suicide.]  Judy B  offers Swedenborg's interpretation of this sort of experience:

"I think that...you heard a conversation between an angelic spirit and a lower level spirit.  Angelic spirits always encourage us; lower level spirits are always negative...[Swedenborg] explained that we always have at least 2 angelic spirits and 2 demonic spirits around us at any given time.  Depending on what we  do and our thoughts, we can attract more of one kind than the other.  Swedenborg wrote that angels are simply people who have chosen to live for the good; demonic ones are simply people who have chosen to live in evil.  The reason why we have at least 2 of both kinds is to keep us in spiritual freedom as to what we want to choose."

This fluctuating applicaton of the principle like attracts like to the types of angels that monitor us is chilling to contemplate.  E. Stanley Jones was an exceptionally devout Christian immersed in a life of prayer and meditation.  Does that distinction explain his access to an angelic warning about the plane crash?  Perhaps, but for me, this does not adquately explain why hundreds of Hindus were deprived of this warning.

Swedenborg's insights raise two additional questions: If guardian spirits transmit thoughts and emotions to us, how (if ever) can these thoughts and emotions be distinguished from those generated by own own mind?   St. Paul warns us of the danger of "grieving" the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30).  If no guardian angels are presently influencing our thoughts, what difference might that make to how our mind functions?  

Don  



   

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Hi Marilyn,

I concur.

Don,......I just did an extensive response to your last post...but I erased the old subject title and forgot to place in a new one as I customarily do...to flow with the logos of my post. I hit the preview button before I put in a new subject title...and 'poof' - it wouldnt show my post in the preview state[error because the the subject space was vacant] and when I hit the back button....all my commentary was vamoosh.(lost in cyberspace). It would be nice if there was a way the program could retain ones commentary if they forgot to put in a new subject title after erasing the old one...and hit preview forgetting to put in the new subject title. Oh well.....we'll leave it to spirit.

One of the points I made was that divine providence takes care of all beings and may manifest in myriad ways....thru angelic mediations or other ways. In every case....each soul is completely in the arms of God. If we would come to know this......then naturally we would see how natural and necessary in some cases the ministry of angels are in assisting mortals in their journey of ascension or return to the ONE.

paul

WHY DON'T MORE OF OUR DECEASED LOVED ONES REASSURE US FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE?

It is a common misconception that it is anti-Christian to attempt to communicate with the dead.
Let me share a fascinating incident that refutes this.
In 1952 Fathers Ernetti and Gemelli were investigating ways of filtering the taped sound of Gregorian chants in order to enhance their acoustical purity.  Their efforts were hampered by the fact that the wire used by tape recorders often broke prior to the invention of magnetic tape.  As was his quirk when exasperated, Father Gemelli finally invoked his deceased father for help.  On starting the mechine again, the Fathers heard, not the Gregorian chant they were working on, but the voice of Gemelli's Dad: "Of course I'll help you.  I'm always with you."  The astonished priests obtained an audience with Pope Pius XII to report the incident to him.  The Pope was excited: he expressed his belief that the reception of the voice through an electronic machine might initiate "a new scientific study for confirming faith in the afterlife."

The  message from Gemelli's Dad might lead us to expect that our deceased loved ones can communicate with us any time they wish.  Many of us feel certain that, if it were possible, we would be eager to confirm our postmortem survival and wellbeing to our grieving loved ones.  Studies indicate that 50% of Americans and 48% of the British claim to experience some form of verification of the survival of their recently deceased loved ones.   So why do so many of our deceased family members fail to encourage us in this way?

Part of the answer may be found in George Meek's mind-blowing research on an ADC machine that recorded the voice of George Mueller, a deceased engineer.  Meek theorized that the right medium might be able to receive instructions on how to build an ideal machine for recording the voices of the dead.  William O'Neil served as a effective channel for Mueller.  Here is a brief list of just some of the incredible details about Mueller channeled by O'Neil: Mueller's social security number/ his degrees and the colleges where he earned them/ his daughter's address/ a club membership/ various honors/ his employment history/ his publications and inventions/ and much more. 

All of this information was later verified.  Some of it was channeled by O'Neil and some of it was communicated via "voice' on Spiricom, the name of Meek's ADC machine.  Mueller issued instructions on how to build the machine, and then his voice on Spiricom suggested ways of upgrading this machine.  Fontana's investigation is able to rule out fraud or ESP as an alternate interpretation.
 
In 1981 Mueller made it clear that "he was beginning to shed his dense earthly vibrations and starting his progression upwards" through his world's various levels of consciousness.   It became harder for him to communicate through Spiricom, and so,  he began to issue instructions on the machine on how to build a more advanced model that would enable him to remain in contact.  But Spiricom fell silent before Mueller completed these instructions.   Apparently he had a limited grasp of his 'ascension" process and could not control it.

Mueller's "ascension" illustrates possible reasons why our dead loved ones often fail to communicate with us.  They may not have access to a talented medium like O'Neil to facilitate their communications.
Or they may miss the window of opportunity by quickly ascending beyond the right vibrational frequency for such communication.  In research on ADC contacts, the loved one is usually contacted within the first year of the death.  David Fontana cites cases where a resourceful discarnate soul ascends beyond the range of communicating with his loved ones on earth, but uses an intermediary on a lower astral plane to facilitate such communication.  But perhaps not every advanced soul is resourceful enough to pull this off. 

But why don't all loving souls reassure their family within, say, the first month of their death?  Several reasons suggest themselves.  If people die from a long, debilitating condition, they may need a year or so to convalesce and adjust to their new spirit plane.  Perhaps they find themselves in a BST that either has not mastered or does not approve of communications with survivors on earth.  People on their plane may retain their earthly skepticism of the reality of channeling or they may believe or know that demons delight in impersonating dead loved ones.   In their current locale, our deceased loved ones may be deprived of training in alternate methods of communicating with their families on earth such as lucid dreams, apparitions, a sense of being tenderly touched by an invisible hand, a characteristic odor (e.g. a perfurm or brand of pipe tobacco), or an inexplicable depression of their family member's bed as if they were lying there.

Future research might focus on decisive differences between the 50% who claim contact from their dead family members and the  50% who do not.  For eaample, do the bereaved and her dead beloved share important beliefs or personality traits that facilitate their astral contact?  What about those who have never been contacted in this way?  Do they or their deceased loved ones share beliefs or personality traits that inhibit their chances of communicating? 

Fontana surveys recent research on ADC machines that not only record the voices of the dead, but enable them to converse with the living.  Perhaps, as these machines are upgraded, more of our deceased loved ones will be able to communicate with us. 

Don

Don

WHY I BELIEVE WE SHOULD PRAY DIRECTLY TO GOD AND NOT TO ANGELS SAINTS, OR THE VIRGIN MARY:

To sum up some key points, I've presented my case for the claim that guardian angels can include discarnate humans.  These angels can watch over us and assist in God's answer to our prayers.  The Bible also teaches that deceased saints in general monitor our progress and implies that they occasionally assist us.  Apart from channeling, there is nothing wrong with the living communicating with their dead loved ones.  The Bible condemns mediumship, in part, because of the danger of being fooled by impersonating evil spirits.  David Fontana documents examples of this potentially dangerous phenomenon and I've discussed this danger in my "Channeling Agendas" post. Nevertheless, I believe that some channeling is genuine and worthy of serious study.

But what about the question of whether we should pray to angels or discarnate saints?  Middle Platonism was a dominant philosophy in the Mediterranean world in Jesus' day.  Its concept of the divine was that of an unknowable, impassive, impersonal, and inaccessible deity that does not respond to human petitions.  To compensate for this deity's inaccessibility, the Greeks developed the notion of a great chain of being that included all kinds of intermediaries who could be contacted by humans.  Some in the early church were influenced by Middle Platonism and began praying to angels like the archangel Michael instead of just to God.  The Catholic church eventually expands on this practice and encourages its people to pray to Jesus' mother Mary, the saints, and Jesus.  Implicit in this shift is the insidious false Platonic assumption that God has better things to do with His time than to respond to our petty prayer requests.  The subtle assumption is that we should pray to advanced souls who really care about us and are prepared to assist us.   

In the New Testament, angels make it clear that they do not want worship and prayer directed at them (e.g. Revelation 19:10).  It is obviously biblical to worship Jesus (e.g. John 9:35-38; Matthew 14:33).  However, Jesus teaches us to direct our petitions not to Himself, but to God in Jesus' name (John 16:22-23).  What does this mean in practical terms?  To put it in New Age lingo, it means that we pray with the vibration created by immersion in Jesus' pure unconditional love.  We also pray in the knowledge that Jesus (or His Holy Spirit) has reconciled us to God and is looking out for our best interests. 

Of course, this is a distinctly Christian perspective.  Since I am integrating New Age insights with biblical perspectives here, I just want to offer full disclosure about my personal bias.  This explains why I encourage attempts to contact dead loved ones in all ways except conventional mediumship.   
But I don't wish to impose my views on anyone.

Don